Greek Scholars please help

[MarcR]

I consider myself to be reasonably competent at Greek exegesis; but not nearly as competent as I am with Hebrew.
I would appreciate it if those more competent than I am at Greek translation would critique my work here.

Gal 4:4

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, brought forth (or born) of a woman, brought forth (or born) under the law,

brought forth (or born) this is γενόμενον the aorist middle participle and means literally caused to become (with your own participation). Many translations render this ‘born ’, and if the active voice were used, I would prefer it. Because the middle voice is used; I believe brought forth is a better choice.
Made would be better expressed by ποιέμενον.

In English made has the sense of brought into being. Jesus is eternal! He only changed form and residence temporarily. I admit that γενόμενον is consistently rendered made in the KJV; but I believe it is an unfortunate choice on the translators’ part.

 

[oldhermit]

Here is a list of various ways this word is rendered from its various forms in the NASB

accomplished (1), appeared (3), arise (1), arises (2), arose (6), arrived (3), became (53), become (83), becomes (8), becoming (2), been (12), been brought (1), been done (1), been made (2), been...came (1), began (1), behaved (1), being (2), come into being (1), being carried (1), being done (2), being made (2), born (5), breaking* (1), came (45), came into being (2), came to pass (2), come (16), comes (1), comes to pass (1), coming (1), dawn (1), decided* (1), developing (1), done (20), drawing (1), during (1), elapsed (1), existed* (1), falling (1), feeling (1), fell (6), finished (1), followed (1), formed (3), found (2), get (4), give (1), got (1), granted (1), grown* (1), had (1), happen (6), happened (46), happening (5), happens (3), has (3), join* (1), joined (3), made (15), occur (3), occurred (18), performed (4), prove (7), proved (6), proving (1), put (1), reached (2), realized (1), results (2), show (1), spent (1), split (1), spoken (1), starting (1), take place (16), taken (2), taken place (5), takes place (1), taking place (3), there arose (1), thundered* (1), took place (7), turned (1), turns (3), would (1).

 

[MarcR]

Here is a list of various ways this word is rendered from its various forms in the NASB

accomplished (1), appeared (3), arise (1), arises (2), arose (6), arrived (3), became (53), become (83), becomes (8), becoming (2), been (12), been brought (1), been done (1), been made (2), been...came (1), began (1), behaved (1), being (2), come into being (1), being carried (1), being done (2), being made (2), born (5), breaking* (1), came (45), came into being (2), came to pass (2), come (16), comes (1), comes to pass (1), coming (1), dawn (1), decided* (1), developing (1), done (20), drawing (1), during (1), elapsed (1), existed* (1), falling (1), feeling (1), fell (6), finished (1), followed (1), formed (3), found (2), get (4), give (1), got (1), granted (1), grown* (1), had (1), happen (6), happened (46), happening (5), happens (3), has (3), join* (1), joined (3), made (15), occur (3), occurred (18), performed (4), prove (7), proved (6), proving (1), put (1), reached (2), realized (1), results (2), show (1), spent (1), split (1), spoken (1), starting (1), take place (16), taken (2), taken place (5), takes place (1), taking place (3), there arose (1), thundered* (1), took place (7), turned (1), turns (3), would (1).

Thank you. I was aware of the vast array of lexical choices of definition. I was hoping for a critique of my grammatical analysis in context.

 

[oldhermit]

Thank you. I was aware of the vast array of lexical choices of definition. I was hoping for a critique of my grammatical analysis in context.

Yea, sometimes this can be a problem since there are so many examples where, at least in the NT, words are used in ways that transcend their lexical definitions. I think in the case of γενόμενον it may boil down to contextual use. What is the word used to express in this given text? I would think since Paul is referring to the coming of Jesus through the seed line that 'having been born' of woman may be the best way to render the word. What do you think?

 

[MarcR]

Yea, sometimes this can be a problem since there are so many examples where, at least in the NT, words are used in ways that transcend their lexical definitions. I think in the case of γενόμενον it may boil down to contextual use. What is the word used to express in this given text? I would think since Paul is referring to the coming of Jesus through the seed line that 'having been born' of woman may be the best way to render the word. What do you think?

I agree that that fits the context best! I question whether that best fits the middle voice.

 

[oldhermit]

I agree that that fits the context best! I question whether that best fits the middle voice.

Well, the middle voice is something that is very subjective in how it is sometimes translated in English since English does not have an actual equivalent. This is why is has so many possibilities for translation. In Luke 18:24 γενόμενον is translated as 'was.' It may be a good idea to get Angela's opinion on this. I would like to hear what she has to say on this.

 

[Nick01]

Yeah, this one is not so much an issue of the grammar of the word itself as the surrounding context. You're correct that brought forth is closer to the semantic sense of genemenon than made, strictly speaking, but I think the connection with coming via a woman indicates the clear sense is birth.

 

[dcontroversal]

In my view brought forth is the better translation....the whole concept of Mary being the conduit from which the Holy Spirit brought forth the only begotten Son of God...and I agree...Jesus has always been so the idea behind a birth bringing one into existance seems to fall short when applied into Jesus as he is a special case altogether....is there not a verse that states what you are saying and tied to the fullness of time...other than than the one you quoted...??

 

[KJV1611]

In my view brought forth is the better translation....the whole concept of Mary being the conduit from which the Holy Spirit brought forth the only begotten Son of God...and I agree...Jesus has always been so the idea behind a birth bringing one into existance seems to fall short when applied into Jesus as he is a special case altogether....is there not a verse that states what you are saying and tied to the fullness of time...other than than the one you quoted...??

Has Jesus fully God and fully man always existed?
Was Jesus under the law before he was made of a woman?
The answer to both questions is no. Neither of those happened until he was made of a woman... when God took on human flesh.

 

[crossnote]

AT Robertson..

God sent forth his preexisting Son (Php 2:6) when the time for his purpose had come like the prothesmia of verse 2. Born of a woman (genomenon ek gunaikos). As all men are and so true humanity, "coming from a woman." There is, of course, no direct reference here to the Virgin Birth of Jesus, but his deity had just been affirmed by the words "his Son" (ton huion autou), so that both his deity and humanity are here stated as in Ro 1:3. Whatever view one holds about Paul's knowledge of the Virgin Birth of Christ one must admit that Paul believed in his actual personal preexistence with God (2Co 8:9; Php 2:5-11), not a mere existence in idea. The fact of the Virgin Birth agrees perfectly with the language here.

Wuest..

The word translated sent forth demands study. It is exapostello. The word apostello refers to the act of one who sends another with a commission to do something, the person sent being given credentials. Our word apostle comes from it. The prefixed preposition apo means from, off. This means that the person sent is to represent the sender. He is his ambassador. Our Lord is called the Apostle and High Priest of our confession in Hebrews 3:1. But not only was our Lord sent off from the presence of the Father, but as the other prefixed preposition ex signifies, He was sent out from His presence. "Out from the ivory palaces, into a world of woe" came our Saviour.Not only was He sent forth from Heaven, but He became incarnate in the human race through virgin birth, as the words "made of a woman" indicate. Not only did He become incarnate, but He was born and lived His life previous to His Cross under the Mosaic law, yes, under law as such, for the definite article is absent before the word law in the Greek text. He was subject to the Jewish legal economy just as any Jew was subject to it.
Translation. But when there came the fulness of the time, God sent off His Son, woman born, made subject to law.

 

[Angela53510]

I consider myself to be reasonably competent at Greek exegesis; but not nearly as competent as I am with Hebrew.
I would appreciate it if those more competent than I am at Greek translation would critique my work here.

Gal 4:4

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, brought forth (or born) of a woman, brought forth (or born) under the law,

brought forth (or born) this is γενόμενον the aorist middle participle and means literally caused to become (with your own participation). Many translations render this ‘born ’, and if the active voice were used, I would prefer it. Because the middle voice is used; I believe brought forth is a better choice.
Made would be better expressed by ποιέμενον.

In English made has the sense of brought into being. Jesus is eternal! He only changed form and residence temporarily. I admit that γενόμενον is consistently rendered made in the KJV; but I believe it is an unfortunate choice on the translators’ part.

I just saw this. I love to actually study the Bible, instead of just refuting people with bad or no doctrine all the time, so even though my pinkie finger subluxed badly today, I am going to try and post about this.

First, γίνομαι is notoriously difficult to translate. My lexicons have many word possiblities, as OH posted. One says:

"I become, am, exist, happen, take place, am born, created."

However, my exegetical book does not place this in the middle voice, but rather as a deponent verb. That would mean you could basically translate it as active. Often the middle voice was indicated by form, when in fact it was deponent.

Bill Mounce says about deponent verbs:

"It is a verb that is middle or passive in form, but active in meaning. Its form is always middle or passive, but its meaning is always active. It can never have a passive voice. Actually, the vast majority of middle forms in the New Testament, approximately 75%, are deponent.

You can tell if a verb is deponent by its lexical form. Deponent verbs are always listed in the vocabulary sections with passive endings. In otehr words, if the lexical form ends in an omega, it is not deponent. If the lexical form ends in omai, (ομαι)
the verb is deponent. " (Basics of Biblical Greek - Bill Mounce, 152)

Finally, in Gal. 4:4, this participle γενόμενον, defines the principle clause. The meaning "born or made" both fit correctly in this passage.

So always remember to think deponent and look at the lexical form. That is what I was taught.

I hope that helps. I am really hurting, so I will sign out now! But back tomorrow to see your responses.

PS If anyone has a good site for lexical forms that will actually copy and paste into CC, let me know!

 

[oldhermit]

I just saw this. I love to actually study the Bible, instead of just refuting people with bad or no doctrine all the time, so even though my pinkie finger subluxed badly today, I am going to try and post about this.

First, γίνομαι is notoriously difficult to translate. My lexicons have many word possiblities, as OH posted. One says:

"I become, am, exist, happen, take place, am born, created."

However, my exegetical book does not place this in the middle voice, but rather as a deponent verb. That would mean you could basically translate it as active. Often the middle voice was indicated by form, when in fact it was deponent.

Bill Mounce says about deponent verbs:

"It is a verb that is middle or passive in form, but active in meaning. Its form is always middle or passive, but its meaning is always active. It can never have a passive voice. Actually, the vast majority of middle forms in the New Testament, approximately 75%, are deponent.

You can tell if a verb is deponent by its lexical form. Deponent verbs are always listed in the vocabulary sections with passive endings. In otehr words, if the lexical form ends in an omega, it is not deponent. If the lexical form ends in omai, (ομαι)
the verb is deponent. " (Basics of Biblical Greek - Bill Mounce, 152)

Finally, in Gal. 4:4, this participle γενόμενον, defines the principle clause. The meaning "born or made" both fit correctly in this passage.

So always remember to think deponent and look at the lexical form. That is what I was taught.

I hope that helps. I am really hurting, so I will sign out now! But back tomorrow to see your responses.

PS If anyone has a good site for lexical forms that will actually copy and paste into CC, let me know!

Very good point. If γενόμενον then functions as a deponent and consequently cannot be passive then the better rendering would be 'born' as opposed to 'brought forth.' This would also be an appropriate rendering in the following clause, γενόμενον ὑπὸ νόμον - 'born under the Law' as opposed to 'made to be under the Law.'

 

[dcontroversal]

Has Jesus fully God and fully man always existed?
Was Jesus under the law before he was made of a woman?
The answer to both questions is no. Neither of those happened until he was made of a woman... when God took on human flesh.

So what is your point.....does'nt change the fact that the king james is just a translation/transliteration made be men and some.words could have been translated better without a bias due to their anglican religion....

 

[MarcR]

Thank you: OH, Nick, Dcon, and Angela.

I feel competent to handle that which is straightforward and uncomplicated. In cases like this I like to check my work with those more competent than I.

 

[dcontroversal]

Really if you get down to it the whole concept can be lumped under the following...born, brought forth and made...does it not speak to a body being prepared for Christ...prepared the word actually used...and born under the law as in time frame and brought forth for the purpose of God tasting human existance to include suffering and death as well as ana-stasis.....just a thought

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Here is a list of various ways this word is rendered from its various forms in the NASB

accomplished (1), appeared (3), arise (1), arises (2), arose (6), arrived (3), became (53), become (83), becomes (8), becoming (2), been (12), been brought (1), been done (1), been made (2), been...came (1), began (1), behaved (1), being (2), come into being (1), being carried (1), being done (2), being made (2), born (5), breaking* (1), came (45), came into being (2), came to pass (2), come (16), comes (1), comes to pass (1), coming (1), dawn (1), decided* (1), developing (1), done (20), drawing (1), during (1), elapsed (1), existed* (1), falling (1), feeling (1), fell (6), finished (1), followed (1), formed (3), found (2), get (4), give (1), got (1), granted (1), grown* (1), had (1), happen (6), happened (46), happening (5), happens (3), has (3), join* (1), joined (3), made (15), occur (3), occurred (18), performed (4), prove (7), proved (6), proving (1), put (1), reached (2), realized (1), results (2), show (1), spent (1), split (1), spoken (1), starting (1), take place (16), taken (2), taken place (5), takes place (1), taking place (3), there arose (1), thundered* (1), took place (7), turned (1), turns (3), would (1).

Not a greek scholar, but I know the English tongue. I'd say any of those are applicable. Even those with asterisk. That's kinda the beauty of the English language. Perfectly poetic. We are written into a poem. Everything that was made was made by a Master Poet that spoke reality into occurrence. All of us and everything that exists are all words. Everything living has a spirit, literally a breath.

There's many ways in English to say the same thing. The point is of course the story as a whole and not the individual words. All flesh is dust. Everything in the world is dirt. Our carnal fathers spoke us by the flesh as seeds into the flesh vases called women. We all split our mothers and thundered into existence by violence, tears, and blood which is the law and the way of all men and of flesh. For this by the law all must die, blood for blood, tears for tears, violence for violence. So it is the Ultimate Deity even made his own Word manifest under this law into the world through his Breath into a virgin's flesh. The Word of God defied the law of death and doing so is both the first and last immortal. By defying flesh and death the Son is the promise to make us freeborn heirs of the Master Patriarch. So therefore we are no longer heirs of the law, but are the heirs of the promise.

 

[KJV1611]

So what is your point.....does'nt change the fact that the king james is just a translation/transliteration made be men and some.words could have been translated better without a bias due to their anglican religion....

I think it's a matter of accuracy rather than anglican bias. Maybe an example would help. Say a woman (woman 1) donates a fertilized egg to another woman (woman 2). The child is born of woman 2 but the child is made of woman 1's DNA.

To say Jesus was born of woman does not give the same detailed information that made of woman does. Made of woman proves the humanity of Jesus Christ.

 

[MarcR]

In my view brought forth is the better translation....the whole concept of Mary being the conduit from which the Holy Spirit brought forth the only begotten Son of God...and I agree...Jesus has always been so the idea behind a birth bringing one into existance seems to fall short when applied into Jesus as he is a special case altogether....is there not a verse that states what you are saying and tied to the fullness of time...other than than the one you quoted...??

I am writing my commentary on Galatians Chapter 4; and was not as sure of my skills here as I would like to be.

I often cite published commentary; but only when it substantially agrees with my own exegesis and is especially well worded, IMO.

 

[posthuman]

i can't comment on Greek, but you may find it interesting -- while in study wednesday night, i was looking at this:

By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
(Romans 8:3-4)​

and it struck me how that if it is the Son who was "sent" and made "in the likeness" of sinful flesh -- than it cannot be possible that He was not the Son before having been sent, and being enfleshed.
i've heard it argued that He did not become the Son until baptism (or some other point) - an idea i wholly reject.

just a thought
if nothing else, in some way i think this correlates with what you're thinking about the meaning here in Galatians.

 

[MarcR]

AT Robertson..



Wuest..

Thank you crossnote

Robertson and Wuest, while not specifically addressing Gal 4:4 do shed light on the same contextual issues; and their thoughts seem close to my own.