Hailstones and Earthquakes

Nebuchadnezzer · Jan 25, 2020

Rev 15:8 says, "No man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled (completed).

You are making many assumptions in your assessment. for one you assume that the seventh plague is the last and final plague. Also you are making the assumption that these plagues are sequential and last only a short while.

For example, quite possibly, the sixth plague or 6th bowl of wrath is the plague of Islam. Islam is certainly a plague that has been festering for over a millennium. Therefore, the bowls of wrath have begun. Maybe not all of them have begun, but some of them have. And those that have begun some have not been completed yet.

Nebuchadnezzer · Jan 25, 2020

jb said:

Nebuchadnezzer said:

I hear crickets!

So let me ask you this question on Deuteronomy 4:2 as well.

Deuteronomy 4:2 You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.

Does this verse apply only to the five books that Moses wrote (The Pentateuch), or does it apply to the entire book of God's Word (the Holy Bible)?

RevelationMan · Jan 25, 2020

Nebuchadnezzer said:

One could ask the same question about the "testimony" Jesus is referring to in Rev 22:16. Does this testimony refer to the book of Revelation or to the entire Bible. I believe here Jesus is referring to the entire Bible as the "testimony of Jesus" which he gave to the churches, however, in the passage you refer to in Rev 22:18-19 the NIV uses the word "scroll" so it appears it is referring to just the book of Revelation.

16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you all this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” -Rev 22:16

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll. -Rev 22:18-19

Nebuchadnezzer · Jan 25, 2020

RevelationMan said:

If you Biblehub Revelation 22:18 you will see that the vast majority of translations use book, instead of scroll.

Additionally, what you are saying elevates Revelation above the other books or scrolls of the bible. Because more severe punishment comes to those who add words to Revelation than to adding words to any other book.

RevelationMan · Jan 25, 2020

Nebuchadnezzer said:

I'm personally ok with the interpretation that it refers to the entire Bible but i'm not sure if that would be a good exegetical understanding.

Adstar · Jan 25, 2020

Nebuchadnezzer said:

There is no reason Not to take the literally Especally when they are described in such detail..

Nebuchadnezzer · Jan 25, 2020

RevelationMan said:

Adstar said:

I appreciate you input. Did you read posts #4 and #11 ? Perhaps you can comment on them.

Adstar · Jan 25, 2020

Nebuchadnezzer said:

Yes i read your posts 4 and 11.. But that does not change my view on Revelation..

Two problems with the points..

1) Jerusalem has been destroyed on a number of occasions and taking prophecy into account it will be destroyed again.. That poses a problem in knowing what destruction these OT prophecies are referring too.. Your prophecy could be pointing to an incident that has already happened or it could be pointing to a future destruction of Jerusalem..

2) Just because the Bible may have used hailstones in a symbolic way at one times does not mean that on all occasions when the Bible talks about hailstones it is always talking of them in a historic way..

The following scripture in Revelation even goes to the extent of giving the weight of the Hailstones..

Revelation 16: KJV
21 "And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

Nebuchadnezzer · Jan 26, 2020

Adstar said:

Exodus 9:23
And Moses stretched forth his rod toward heaven: and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and the fire ran along upon the ground; and the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
Exodus 9:24
So there was hail, and fire mingled with the hail, very grievous, such as there was none like it in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.

In Exodus the plague of hail were given much description: where it fell, when it would fall, what it would destroy and where it would not fall...
I believe here the hail was literal. furthermore, just so you know where I stand I also believe the parting of the red sea was literal. The manna from heaven, literal. I affirm this.!!!
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But in the Book of Ezekiel it is made clear that Jerusalem, a city, was attacked, destroyed and conquered by siege and war.
In Ezekiel 13 hailstones are mentioned, but aside from the word "great" there is no other description here. Here hailstones are a metaphor for seige and war.

The Babylonians who brought war and conquest to the region caused Jerusalem to fall, and other cities and nations as well. Not hailstones.
-----------------------

So when we look to Interpret The Seventh Bowl of wrath not many clues or descriptions are given. But there are Two important clues in Rev 16:19

Rev 16:19 - "The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath."

Conclusion:

First Clue) When Hailstones were used in Exodus no cities or nations fell.

When Hailstones were used in Ezekiel cities/nations fell.
When hailstones are prophesied in Revelation cities / and nations fall.

Second Clue)
Another indication is that the word Babylon, which is from Ezekiel is also used here in Rev 16:19. Now even though This is not the same Babylon that nebuchadnezzar ruled it serves to help point to which biblical context these Hailstones are derived from: Ezekiel and not Exodus.

garee · Jan 26, 2020

Nebuchadnezzer said:

Could be both. The literal understanding and the hidden. What I call gospel understanding. They both speak of the judgment of God. And it would seem not a flood but total destruction bringing on the new incorruptible order.

Gregoryp · Jan 26, 2020

nice try, but revelations hasn't started yet, its not far off though, earthquakes, diseases (coronavirus now, more to come) wars and rumours of wars, active volcanos, mans knowledge , haters of the truth, false prophets and idols. The rise of the new world order. Strange weather (climate change) .

Nebuchadnezzer · Jan 26, 2020

Gregoryp said:

Rev 22v18
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
Rev 22v19
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

Let's start with preterist view.
Preterist view states that these plagues were poured during the roman-Jewish War 66-73AD.
But this goes against Rev22v18. For the jews who rejected Jesus Christ did not ADD to God's word, they SUBTRACTED from God's word. They subtracted because they rejected the New Testament. Therefore the Plagues described in Revelation is not for them. End Stop.
-------------------
Time span it took for fulfillment of old testament prophesies
Next we should know that Old testament is both a foreshadowing and a prophesy of the coming Messiah.
The oldest books of the Bible, the Pentatuech written by Moses were written between 1200-1500 yrs before Jesus Christ came into the world and fulfilled all those propehesies. Vast majority of old testament prophesies had been fulfilled in a span of decades to centuries to <1500 yrs.

Let's now move to the futurist view.
Futurist view states that none of these plagues described in Rev have yet been poured after 2000 yrs.
Now who is the institution that has added more to God's word than perhaps any other? The Roman Catholic Church. This institution has been adding to God's word for almost 1700 yrs. According to the futurist view God has been delinquent on his promise in Rev 22v18 for almost 1700yrs.

Look at all the Ecumenical Councils and other official documents the Roman Catholic Church has added over the past 1700 yrs. https://www.papalencyclicals.net/about

And let me remind all that it was from the Roman Catholic Church where the futurist view originated.

What history and the Bible both reveal:
Institutions like the Roman Catholic Church has been continually adding to God's word throughout the centuries and that YES God has been keeping to his very promise in Rev 22:18 and has begun the prrocess of adding thes plagues with their biggest focus on Catholic Europe.

garee · Jan 26, 2020

Gregoryp said:

Not sure what is meant that Revelation has not started. It began with the outlook from the last day the day of the Lord .The sound of the last trump .A warning to the churches .His bride the church

Revelation1: 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

The earthquakes, diseases wars and rumours of wars, active volcanos, mans knowledge , haters of the truth, false prophets and idols is a continuation Just as in the days pf Noah. False prophets have been doing there work from the day God corrupted this creation. The warning is things will continue to corrupt until the new order..

iamsoandso · Jan 27, 2020

It's pretty basic just ask everyone if they believe the foundations from beneath opened and then it literally rained for forty days and nights and they'll say it literally happened. If you ask if Cain spiritually slew Able or if he literally slew him they'll say the same. If you ask if the Red Sea parted or if it was a metaphor they'll say it really parted and the plagues of frogs and stuff actually took place.

If you ask them if the Angel of death actually slew the first born in Egypt or if this was something that did not take place literally they'll say it really happened. They'll say Sodom and Gomorrah was literally destroyed and that Assyria and Babylon took them into captivity in a physical manner.

If you ask them if the temple and Jerusalem was destroyed literally or spiritually they'll say it actually took place. If you ask them if the beatings or the blood or the dislocated bones of the Lord were literal or not they'll all say yes. They'll say the nails and the spear were not spiritual and that they literally took place but after all of the wolds history with God saying something and it literally taking place they think he changed his method of communication and it's all spiritual.

Nebuchadnezzer · Jan 27, 2020

iamsoandso said:

It's pretty basic just ask everyone if they believe the foundations from beneath opened and then it literally rained for forty days and nights and they'll say it literally happened. If you ask if Cain spiritually slew Able or if he literally slew him they'll say the same. If you ask if the Red Sea parted or if it was a metaphor they'll say it really parted and the plagues of frogs and stuff actually took place.

If you ask them if the Angel of death actually slew the first born in Egypt or if this was something that did not take place literally they'll say it really happened. They'll say Sodom and Gomorrah was literally destroyed and that Assyria and Babylon took them into captivity in a physical manner.

If you ask them if the temple and Jerusalem was destroyed literally or spiritually they'll say it actually took place. If you ask them if the beatings or the blood or the dislocated bones of the Lord were literal or not they'll all say yes. They'll say the nails and the spear were not spiritual and that they literally took place but after all of the wolds history with God saying something and it literally taking place they think he changed his method of communication and it's all spiritual.

Can you speak plainly?

RevelationMan · Jan 27, 2020

Nebuchadnezzer said:

It is hard to see the whole puzzle without fitting all the pieces together.

Historical Record
In 589 BC, Nebuchadnezzar II laid siege to Jerusalem, culminating in the destruction of the city and its temple in the summer of 587 or 586 BC.

Ezekiel 4:1-2
The Siege of Jerusalem Symbolized
“And you, son of man, take a brick and lay it before you, and engrave on it a city, even Jerusalem. And put siegeworks against it, and build a siege wall against it, and cast up a mound against it. Set camps also against it, and plant battering rams against it all around.

Ezekiel 5:1-2
Jerusalem Will Be Destroyed
“And you, O son of man, take a sharp sword. Use it as a barber's razor and pass it over your head and your beard. Then take balances for weighing and divide the hair. A third part you shall burn in the fire in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are completed. And a third part you shall take and strike with the sword all around the city. And a third part you shall scatter to the wind, and I will unsheathe the sword after them.

Both the Historical Record and the Prophesy of Ezekiel (and Jeremiah for that matter) make it clear that Jerusalem was destroyed by War and invasion in the 6th century BC.

-------- HOWEVER --------

Ezekiel 13 prophesies that it will be heavy rains, hailstones, and stormy winds that will tear the wall down in Jerusalem.

Ezekiel 13:8-14
False Prophets Condemned
Therefore thus says the Lord God: “Because you have uttered falsehood and seen lying visions, therefore behold, I am against you, declares the Lord God. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and who give lying divinations. They shall not be in the council of my people, nor be enrolled in the register of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the Lord God. 10 Precisely because they have misled my people, saying, ‘Peace,’ when there is no peace, and because, when the people build a wall, these prophets smear it with whitewash, say to those who smear it with whitewash that it shall fall! There will be a deluge of rain, and you, O great hailstones, will fall, and a stormy wind break out. And when the wall falls, will it not be said to you, ‘Where is the coating with which you smeared it?’ Therefore thus says the Lord God: I will make a stormy wind break out in my wrath, and there shall be a deluge of rain in my anger, and great hailstones in wrath to make a full end. And I will break down the wall that you have smeared with whitewash, and bring it down to the ground, so that its foundation will be laid bare. When it falls, you shall perish in the midst of it, and you shall know that I am the Lord.

--------------------------------

So here is my question: Are great hailstones, a deluge of rain, and a stormy wind to be taken literally in Ezekiel 13, or are they a metaphor for war?

a strong wind with extreme amounts of rain can do significant damage considering they did not have concrete for there walls in the 6th century BC. The best they probably had was to baked mud to hold the stones together. While this can withstand normal rainy conditions prolonged extreme amounts of rain and tornado force windows can destroy walls built with this type of structure. I don't see any reason to doubt that this was how the walls were destroyed during that time.

Nebuchadnezzer · Jan 27, 2020

MattforJesus said:

Seventh Bowl of Wrath (7th plague) has to do with World War II (WWII) , which included The bombings of Japan its cities falling.

Many Cities of many nations fell in WWII. Fulfillment of Verse 19. " The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath."

the great city is Rome (Whore of Babylon), which also received the hailstones (bombings).

Bombing of Rome in WWII
The bombing of Rome in World War II took place on several occasions in 1943 and 1944, primarily by Allied and to a smaller degree by Axis aircraft, before the city was invaded by the Allies on June 4, 1944.

Bombing of Vatican in WWII
Vatican City maintained an official policy of neutrality during the war.[27] Both Allied and Axis bombers made some effort not to attack the Vatican when bombing Rome. However, Vatican City was bombed on at least two occasions, once by the British and once by the Germans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Rome_in_World_War_II

Rome and the Vatican took of the cup of God's wrath.

Rome was also divided in three during WWII.
1) first controlled by the Italians.
2) second controlled by Germany.
3) controlled by the Allied powers.

Verse 19 fulfilled.

Alertandawake · Jan 31, 2020

If one was to read Revelation 6.12-6.14, if one takes this literally, the description does paint a picture of a nuclear weapon of such power it beggars description. Note in Rev 6.12 the word "earthquake" is G4578 seismos, and going by strongs it can mean a gale, earthquake, a tempest.

Look on youtube and do a search for Tsar bomb, question one must ask, how much powerful are the bombs of today?

Nebuchadnezzer · Feb 1, 2020

Alertandawake said:

Yes, thanks for sharing. Great point mentioned here.

Tsar Bomba (RDS-220 hydrogen bomb) – 50Mt
The hydrogen bomb was air dropped by a Tu-95 bomber using huge fall-retardation parachute. The detonation occurred 4km above the ground producing a yield of 50Mt, which is believed to be equivalent to the explosive power from the simultaneous detonation of 3,800 Hiroshima bombs.
https://www.army-technology.com/fea...-powerful-nuclear-weapons-ever-built-4206787/

So The seventh Bowl of Wrath may not be completely fulfilled by the events of World War II. Instead World War II may just be the opener for the complete fulfillment of the Seventh Bowl of Wrath.

If this is true, then OH MY WORD!!!

Could the seventh bowl of wrath also be pointing to a WWIII ?

Alertandawake · Feb 1, 2020

Nebuchadnezzer said:

Frightening, and when reading from Rev 16.17 to Rev 16.21 it does match some kind of horrific nuclear event.

In reading Rev 16:20, when you read the desciption, the words "fled away", trace that to the greek, the greek word by strongs concordance is G5343 pheugo, which not only means to run away, but can also mean to vanish. Absolutely terrifying considering we are in the age of nuclear weapons.

The weapons we have today, once they are launched on a worldwide scale, that is it. It would be a very short war when we get to WW3. Within a day the planet could be roasted. Hypersonic missiles, nuclear warheads. It really is frightening where we are headed, and the reality is, all weapons that are made sooner or later are used.

Hailstones and Earthquakes

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