Hardshell & Primitive Baptist "Conditional Time Salvation" Warning

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ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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FGC,

Since we're engaged here in this conversation about the Gospel, please tell us what the Gospel itself is.
The entire scriptures were written to God's people, (the elect) not to the natural man, who would think them to be foolish.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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Jesus said, In the gospel, you THINK you have eternal life, but they are that which speaks of me. Now that is good news.
When we are granted belief we believed the good news and such good news delivered us from our sins and we were granted eternal life. This eternal life is what he secured for us and is what we are believing in. The Gospel not a message of time salvation it's eternal salvation. That is what we are saved unto when we are granted faith. You're distorting the Gospel with your doctrine into a different message.

Furthermore no person is a believer prior to hearing the Gospel as per Romans 10. You're incorrect there and conflating believer with elect.

In the above you've changed the words of Christ. That is not what he said, you've changed the meaning to fit your teaching. This is the second time I've said this to you.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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FGC,

Since we're engaged here in this conversation about the Gospel, please tell us what the Gospel itself is.
A preachers duty is not to save souls to heaven, God need no help for that. A preacher is to preach the good news of the gospel to the sheep, the children of God instructing them how God wants them to live their lives while here on earth. All the time you are trying to save souls eternally by preaching to the natural man, who does not have the Spirit of God within him, you are wasting your time and not preaching to the lost SHEEP of the house of Israel (Jacob-God's elect). All of the people that God has a will to save eternally was accomplished on the cross and chosen before the world began in covenant relationship and there has not been one more soul outside of the cross saved eternally sense then. All of those he died for will be regenerated after their natural birth into this world, when the last one of God's elect has been regenerated is when Christ will come to gather his elect and take them home
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Oct 25, 2018
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According to Eph 2, His elect were not unlike the non-elect in the beginning of their natural life and could not discern the spiritual gospel until God regenerated him (Eph 2:5). You and I see differently on God accomplishing all of his will and the type of deliverance that happens when we come to a knowledge of truth through the gospel. I was very confused on the salvation scriptures in thinking that they contradicted each other until I was 62 years old, but now have a satisfaction in the harmony of them.
Yes, my friend, we were children of wrath even as others, per Ephesians 2:3. You are still confused on the passages concerning the gospel as you continually mock the means of the gospel actually saving God's people. There is only one salvation, and that salvation is eternal. Until you grasp this, you will perpetually grasp at straws my friend.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

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Oct 25, 2018
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A preachers duty is not to save souls to heaven, God need no help for that. A preacher is to preach the good news of the gospel to the sheep, the children of God instructing them how God wants them to live their lives while here on earth. All the time you are trying to save souls eternally by preaching to the natural man, who does not have the Spirit of God within him, you are wasting your time and not preaching to the lost SHEEP of the house of Israel (Jacob-God's elect). All of the people that God has a will to save eternally was accomplished on the cross and chosen before the world began in covenant relationship and there has not been one more soul outside of the cross saved eternally sense then. All of those he died for will be regenerated after their natural birth into this world, when the last one of God's elect has been regenerated is when Christ will come to gather his elect and take them home
Jesus said to preach the gospel to every creature in the Great Commission, not just His people my friend. You are anti-means, anti-missionary, anti-Great Commission. It is sad the view you hold to, as it is anti-biblical and yet you mock those who hazard their lives in getting the gospel to those living in remote places.

The cross did not save all of God's elect at the very moment Jesus died upon the cross my friend. We were lost, born dead in Adam, and our salvation, which is eternal by the way, was accomplished in time, via the preaching of the gospel. Saying they regenerate needs to hear the gospel to be saved is preposterous. If someone is saved, they are regenerate, if they are regenerate, they are saved. You saying that people are saved and then later are saved by the gospel is a ludicrous statement to make. God saves people via the gospel of Jesus Christ.
 

preacher4truth

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Dec 28, 2016
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Here is another issue of PB doctrine that makes their gospel false:

The person, being elect can live a life of godlessness, wickedness, sodomy, drunkenness, theft, murder, fornication, adultery, you name it. They will still inherit eternal life because the PB "can tell" the person is saved eternally because they believe in the after life.

The person in the PB scenario will get there but in this life just decided to live like hell and not believe the Gospel. They didn't choose option B.

Hyper-Antinomianism. Hyper-Calvinism.

So, live like the devil and die and inherit eternal life. This is one reason the PB's call their doctrine "attractive" a word they use in describing their teachings.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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A preachers duty is not to save souls to heaven, God need no help for that.
Note that not one person is saying preachers save souls, this is ridicule, fleshly pride, mockery and false humility on display brother. It is all part of the rejection of the true Gospel of Christ. You all simply hate the fact that God uses means to save souls eternally.

Your false "deliverance in time only" heresy falls short. Many believers have faced a much crueler fate in this life after coming to believe the Gospel. They did this gladly, knowing God brought them to faith and repentance unto eternal life.

Yet God does certainly employ men via the Gospel to accomplish his means to save souls; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Romans 10; 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

None of us know who the elect are, the apostles did not know either, but lo and behold, the PB's know who they are. Ain't that something?
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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We all know salvation is from the Lord. BUT lets also look to the scriptures where words like this are said:

Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Pro 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

So there is nothing wrong with saying that preachers are saving people, IN MY OPINION. Like Paul said to Timothy there. I doubt Paul and Timothy were walking around saying "I dont need God I'll save myself".
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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I was very confused on the salvation scriptures in thinking that they contradicted each other until I was 62 years old, but now have a satisfaction in the harmony of them.
Could you give me an example(s) of these salvation scriptures which seem to contradict each other?
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Repenting is a gift of God my friend.
Whether it is a gift of God is not the point. Even if it is a gift of God, the natural man, until he has been regenerated, will not, and cannot respond to breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern.
 

GraceAndTruth

Junior Member
Sep 28, 2015
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If you are looking for the perfect church that does everything perfectly and agrees with YOUR perfect understanding of everything, then please don't enter it or it will never be perfect again! :cry:

These Hardshell or Particular Baptists are old baptist denominations who have had their own particular way of conducting their worship, none of it wrong. They hold 100% to the doctrines of grace. They do not adhere to this strange doctrine attributed to them called "conditional time salvation" That is a heresy they refute and are holding fast to the "absolute predestined salvation" of their Black Rock statements

To blame entire groups of people for a few bad apples is unfair and it shows a lack of scholarship on the subject.
It's like blaming Reformed Baptists for the errors of what most baptist churches have fallen prey to in the last 150 years.


This forum as degenerated into another spat between "sovereign grace" people and the "free willies" that will never be solved by debate but only by God's grace to understanding. Opinion is not edifying, SCRIPTURE is. (as long as it is in context)
 

preacher4truth

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Dec 28, 2016
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Whether it is a gift of God is not the point...
Oh, but it is the point, and you and PB teachings have made it the point. You're now trying to play both sides of the fence.

You've turned the gospel into time deliverance based upon your teaching that it cannot be eternal salvation because faith and repentance are works of man.

Your entire premise is based upon whether these are works of man because you determined if they are, then the salvation on and through the Gospel cannot be eternal salvation.

Oh, yes, whether it is a gift or not is the point and your teaching is exposed as errant.

Why not just admit you are and were incorrect on repentance and works being a work of man, that this teaching is foundational for you to arrive at "time salvation" then "we" can get on the right track?
 

Hevosmies

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Sep 8, 2018
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If you are looking for the perfect church that does everything perfectly and agrees with YOUR perfect understanding of everything, then please don't enter it or it will never be perfect again! :cry:
A man once said "I'll never go to church, i hate it, the church is full of hypocrites!" The preacher responded back to him and said: "Well come on join us, one more aint gonna hurt us"
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Jesus said to preach the gospel to every creature in the Great Commission, not just His people my friend. You are anti-means, anti-missionary, anti-Great Commission. It is sad the view you hold to, as it is anti-biblical and yet you mock those who hazard their lives in getting the gospel to those living in remote places.

The cross did not save all of God's elect at the very moment Jesus died upon the cross my friend. We were lost, born dead in Adam, and our salvation, which is eternal by the way, was accomplished in time, via the preaching of the gospel. Saying they regenerate needs to hear the gospel to be saved is preposterous. If someone is saved, they are regenerate, if they are regenerate, they are saved. You saying that people are saved and then later are saved by the gospel is a ludicrous statement to make. God saves people via the gospel of Jesus Christ.
The apostles were sent to preach to the lost SHEEP (God's children) of the house of Israel (which is Jacob's name who is representative of God's elect). You might ask yourself, "why were HIS SHEEP lost" Obviously, they were not lost eternally because they are his sheep. The shepherd left the 99 of his sheep to go and save the one sheep that was lost. The event of "the prodigal son" - Luke 15:24 - For this MY SON was dead and is alive AGAIN; he was lost, and is found. The lost son was never not his son, but was lost from enjoying the benefits of his fathers fellowship.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Oh, but it is the point, and you and PB teachings have made it the point. You're now trying to play both sides of the fence.

You've turned the gospel into time deliverance based upon your teaching that it cannot be eternal salvation because faith and repentance are works of man.

Your entire premise is based upon whether these are works of man because you determined if they are, then the salvation on and through the Gospel cannot be eternal salvation.

Oh, yes, whether it is a gift or not is the point and your teaching is exposed as errant.

Why not just admit you are and were incorrect on repentance and works being a work of man, that this teaching is foundational for you to arrive at "time salvation" then "we" can get on the right track?
Whether repentance is a work of man or not, the natural man will not, and even, cannot respond to breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern. The only person that responds to a spiritual law is the regenerated person who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that enables him to discern a spiritual law, and a person that can be pricked in his new heart by God. I understand your determination in enabling the natural man, void of the Spirit, to discern spiritual things, in order to keep your salaried job, but it will just not harmonize. You have not exposed a faulty doctrine, via, the purpose of your thread. Repentance is brought about by God pricking the new heart of the regenerated man.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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We all know salvation is from the Lord. BUT lets also look to the scriptures where words like this are said:

Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Pro 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

So there is nothing wrong with saying that preachers are saving people, IN MY OPINION. Like Paul said to Timothy there. I doubt Paul and Timothy were walking around saying "I dont need God I'll save myself".
I did not say that preachers do not save (deliver) people from a lack of knowledge of the gospel. I said that preachers should be preaching the gospel to God's children informing them of the good news of the gospel that tells them how God has eternally saved them by his sovereign grace. When we spread the good news of the gospel to God's children who do not understand the fullness of the gospel, we are saving them from a lack of knowledge, we are not saving them eternally, because they are already saved eternally by God's grace. The gospel is not informing us on how to "get saved eternally" but the gospel is instructions to God's people teaching them how he wants them to live their lives while they are living on this earth.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Note that not one person is saying preachers save souls, this is ridicule, fleshly pride, mockery and false humility on display brother. It is all part of the rejection of the true Gospel of Christ. You all simply hate the fact that God uses means to save souls eternally.

Your false "deliverance in time only" heresy falls short. Many believers have faced a much crueler fate in this life after coming to believe the Gospel. They did this gladly, knowing God brought them to faith and repentance unto eternal life.

Yet God does certainly employ men via the Gospel to accomplish his means to save souls; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Romans 10; 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

None of us know who the elect are, the apostles did not know either, but lo and behold, the PB's know who they are. Ain't that something?
I have never claimed that I know who the elect are. David, when he was king of Israel (which is a type of the elect) got in trouble with God for numbering Israel and as punishment to David, cost several thousands of lives of Israel. So, no, I would never claim to know who the elect are. Ain't that something?
Could you give me an example(s) of these salvation scriptures which seem to contradict each other?
Read my posts and you will see them.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Could you give me an example(s) of these salvation scriptures which seem to contradict each other?
You are saved by grace, through (the faithfulness of Jesus going to the cross) and that not of yourself. lest any man should boast (eternal salvation) and in contrast, Save yourselves from this untoward generation (timely deliverance-salvation).