Has sin been paid for?

[MatthewG]

Well, okay then.

The price of sin was paid for if you want to accept it or not.

You can say it has or hasnt been paid for, people will burn in the lake of fire, and be in hell forever all you wish.

I don't understand God like that, I see a very different side, from what some protray Him to be like.

So I'll never be able to understand you guys and why you believe that way. But it is okay, because I believe you both love God, and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ my friends in Christ Jesus.

If I went all the way with it I could really say that Hell, and the Lake of Fire is finished...

I do believe the bible is fully completed and that would mean Jesus Christ has had the victory over hell and the lake of fire... if I really wanted to but I dont go that far and I leave space for room for these two areas, for whatever reason because I know how people believe theologically about them.

 

[preacher4truth]

That's called double payment.

Say I paid off your house, and the mortgage company keeps billing you anyhow. That's unjust.

Perhaps the mortgage company just wants you to exercise faith in it. Or believe in it. Or something.

 

[dcontroversal]

There seems to be a balance......what does the following mean when one compares the bolded against the underlined.....is it not the same principle that is being argued concerning the sins of the whole world?

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

 

[dcontroversal]

Did not JESUS say the Pharisees would die in their sin because they have not believed in him?

What is implied by this statement......

SO...if they believe their sins would be covered right?

What can I logically conclude from this......?

 

[preacher4truth]

Well, okay then.

The price of sin was paid for if you want to accept it or not.

You can say it has or hasnt been paid for, people will burn in the lake of fire, and be in hell forever all you wish.

I don't understand God like that, I see a very different side, from what some protray Him to be like.

So I'll never be able to understand you guys and why you believe that way. But it is okay, because I believe you both love God, and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ my friends in Christ Jesus.

Yes, you see a God, in your tradition, that is making persons pay a debt already paid. Your tradition won't allow you to see Scripture in any other way because this is how you've always been taught.

God is not unjust, and the scenario showing you this is not hard to understand (us guys), it just goes against your traditional belief system and therefore you reject it.

 

[dcontroversal]

In John 3:16 the word world is KOSMOS or whole order of things......

What can I glean from this truth........?

 

[preacher4truth]

Did not JESUS say the Pharisees would die in their sin because they have not believed in him?

What is implied by this statement......

SO...if they believe their sins would be covered right?

What can I logically conclude from this......?

Then if their sins really had been paid for, they would have been what before the foundation of the world?

 

[dcontroversal]

God is long suffering and not willing that any should perish and would have ALL men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.......

What can I glean from this truth concerning the sacrifice of Christ and payment for sin?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I don't serve an unjust God. If all sins were paid for, there is no need in sending any to hell to pay a debt already paid.

I think that the major problem, is that he has been exposed to preterism, because I can see it in his responses. Any time that I provide scripture regarding any Biblical topic, he refers to it as "my view," which it isn't because I'm only quoting scripture. For example, he continues on about there being a second chance for salvation after death. I have given him the scriptures regarding this, but he ignores the words in the context and trusts in what he believes, opposed to what God's word is saying.

I have told him that if there was a second chance for salvation for those in Hades, there wouldn't be one single person who would reject the the offer, which would mean that there would be no one in Hades and no reason for the lake of fire. I can't imagine anyone in Hades saying "Well, I think I like it here, so I think I'll stay." the rich man of Lazarus fame did not have a second chance, nor could Lazarus rise from the dead and go to his fathers house to even warn his five brothers. Not only that, but I presented the scriptures that demonstrate eternal punishment, but he doesn't take them into consideration and refers to them as "my view."

Like I continue to say it, preterism and amillennialism are two of the most destructive false teachings on the planet.

 

[dcontroversal]

Then if their sins really had been paid for, they would have been what before the foundation of the world?

What does scripture say....

MANY (not all) are called but few chosen.....

and

We are chosen in him before the foundation of the world was laid....

 

[Ahwatukee]

Then if their sins really had been paid for, they would have been what before the foundation of the world?

In order to have Christ's payment applied, the individual has to confess him and make him Lord and Savior. It's not just he paid the penalty for sin and so everyone is cover regardless of whether they have faith or not. If that were true, then there would be no need to be a Christian, because everyone would just be covered. Yet, we know from scripture that one has to be in Christ in order to be saved: "whoever has the Son has life, but whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."

 

[dcontroversal]

I think that the major problem, is that he has been exposed to preterism, because I can see it in his responses. Any time that I provide scripture regarding any Biblical topic, he refers to it as "my view," which it isn't because I'm only quoting scripture. For example, he continues on about there being a second chance for salvation after death. I have given him the scriptures regarding this, but he ignores the words in the context and trusts in what he believes, opposed to what God's word is saying.

I have told him that if there was a second chance for salvation for those in Hades, there wouldn't be one single person who would reject the the offer, which would mean that there would be no one in Hades and no reason for the lake of fire. I can't imagine anyone in Hades saying "Well, I think I like it here, so I think I'll stay." the rich man of Lazarus fame did not have a second chance, nor could Lazarus rise from the dead and go to his fathers house to even warn his five brothers. Not only that, but I presented the scriptures that demonstrate eternal punishment, but he doesn't take them into consideration and refers to them as "my view."

Like I continue to say it, preterism and amillennialism are two of the most destructive false teachings on the planet.

Yeah.....was JESUS truthful when he gave Luke 16......while burning in hell the rich man refused to believe that the message of God would work and begged for Lazarus to be sent because if one rose from the dead his brothers would most certainly believe....ONE did rise fro the dead and yet most will not believe....ABRAHAM said....If they will not believe the word "law and prophets" they will not believe though one rose from the dead....

WHILE BURNING he refused to believe the message from the word would work......

I know what you believe....I do not believe it was a parable regardless of it being in the midst of many parables based upon the fact that it is not generically applied, but lists three very real men and is not named as a parable.

 

[MatthewG]

I'm not gonna fight about it. I mind how anyone here believes about any of it.

I disregard traditions of men, like people who say hell is forever, and the lake of fire is forever...

I even go as far as to say that the Lord Jesus Christ has already came back...

Dc,

There seems to be a balance......what does the following mean when one compares the bolded against the underlined.....is it not the same principle that is being argued concerning the sins of the whole world? I dont understand how to respond. This scripture is seems to included everyone all men, even those who beleive.

For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Did not JESUS say the Pharisees would die in their sin because they have not believed in him?
What is implied by this statement......
SO...if they believe their sins would be covered right?

Yes, they would turn from their unbelief, or repent, their sins are covered, but the unbelief factor was not covered because they didn't believe in the first place. The Pharisees loved their temples, and the way they did everything back then, and looked at even Jesus Christ as sinner, and that He was out of His mind.

Also Jesus Christ called the Pharisee hypocritcs, and everything else looking at context, even talked about Judgement for them.. Which is intresting to me because I always pretain all these things being said to them in their own time respectively. Do not know if that makes much of a case, in saying well who was He talking to.

What can I logically conclude from this......? I'm not sure.

In John 3:16 the word world is KOSMOS or whole order of things......

What can I glean from this truth........?

John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

But we have scripture were it says the Lord desires none to perish, so I believe He can still reach out to others even after this life, to draw them near to Him.

It might be a fantasy land to most people in the way I see this to be possible, I just do not believe God is limited.

and I believe in Him getting what He desires, and it will be the choice, of those who didn't believe to turn around, to God, no matter how long it takes.

Scriptures says all tongues will confess JEsus Christ is the Lord for the Glory of God, is this a lie?


I tried to answer to the best of my ability here, and Ill be honest it has been a while since I have read any of the Gospels, all the way through or any of the letters all the way through.

Thanks for taking time to read this if you did, and have a great Saturday.

I like being different and thinking different than most everyone else because I believe we have Freedom in Christ Jesus to think for our self.

 

[notuptome]

Yes, you see a God, in your tradition, that is making persons pay a debt already paid. Your tradition won't allow you to see Scripture in any other way because this is how you've always been taught.

God is not unjust, and the scenario showing you this is not hard to understand (us guys), it just goes against your traditional belief system and therefore you reject it.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

It's all about grace not election. Grace, Gods pity on mankind.

Ps 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Chester]

Not quite but keep learning. Giving up ones traditions is key.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ???

Quite the conceited comment! (in my humble, quiet, opinion! LOL!)

 

[SovereignGrace]

Calvinists bluster when reminded that man's repentance is a necessary component of salvation.

*****Ahem*****

NOTE: Repentance isn't a requirement for salvation.

This can be found on page 3 of the 'What is spiritual death' thread. Now, are you gonna bust his chops for stating repentance is not a requirement for salvation?

 

[preacher4truth]

*****Ahem*****



This can be found on page 3 of the 'What is spiritual death' thread. Now, are you gonna bust his chops for stating repentance is not a requirement for salvation?

No, it's those who believe repentance is necessary who get told they don't. Those who don't believe it really do believe it. Or something.

 

[MatthewG]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ???

Quite the conceited comment! (in my humble, quiet, opinion! LOL!)

God is so awesome brother, and good. He is good to us every single day, every day anyone wakes up life has been given to them.

 

[garee]

No, it's those who believe repentance is necessary who get told they don't. Those who don't believe it really do believe it. Or something.

I would say of course comforting oneself (repentance) after we hear the voice of God as it turn us towards Him to hear what the Spirit is saying,as an ox not being accustomed to hearing His voice it turn us so that then we can repent comfort one self..

If Christ does not first turn us no man could comfort themselves .He is the comforter.

Christ does all the work required to turn us as our first love or he does nothing.

The law of repentance below.

Jer 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me,(the first work of God moving men to repent) and I was chastised,(the work of God) as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me,(the work of God)and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.Surely after that I was turned, "I repented"; (comforted himself) and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

Strongs lexicon... 05162 nacham {naw-kham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion 1a2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent 1a3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1a4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself 1b) (Piel) to comfort, console 1c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled 1d) (Hithpael) 1d1) to be sorry, have compassion 1d2) to rue, repent of 1d3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1d4) to ease oneself

 

[Johnny_B]

I wasn't aware of a 'hyper-grace' movement until I read it here on CC, but myself and several of my friends have noticed lately that there seems to be a lot of teaching and preaching that plants the seed that "sinning is ok, we're gonna sin anyway, we all sin, so don't worry about it, just repent when you do".

I hear this message mostly from evangelists. To me it seems like an overzealousness to win over souls, stretching the truth to get them saved, make Christianity seem more palatable or something. They don't really leave out repentance, but they just kinda gloss over it, like it's not really that important, that it's ok even if you forget to ask forgiveness for the sin you did last night because it's covered anyway.

I travel a lot in a music ministry, so I hear all kinds of preaching from many denominations, and this message seems to be all over the place. None of these preacher/teachers really come out and use the term 'hypergrace', but now that I look closer at it, they do have many similarities to what I'm learning about the 'hypergrace' movement.

It is the mega-church message, get them in the doors and deal with sin at some point. Some will have what is called new believers classes to introduce them to the Bible and Jesus, they may not in teach about sin but the idea is to get them in the building ans teach nothing but how gracious the Lord is. They never teach about His holiness, righteousness, justice, indignation, judgement and his anger towards our sin, transgressions and iniquities to the point when He judged it on Christ's sacrifice it caused Him to cry out in Matthew 27:46

“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

The first church that I went to as a new believer was the total opposite of these types of churches. They were legalistic as all get out, grace was the furthest thing from their teaching/preaching then anything. They loved sending people to hell with all the wrath that they coiuld muster up, they loved yelling and sending people to hell. They/we got off on it, we were a bunch of Pharisees that fit the Matthew 23:15 mold just fine.

HCSB “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as fit for hell as you are!”

They taught like other Arminians do that grace was something that you worked for, that it was not God unmerited favor, but that it was gained by works of righteousness, by our faith, our evangelism, our faithfullness to His word and the church services.