Has the pre trib rapture belief alienated a whole group of people against each other

[GaryA]

One key that I have found indispensable to understanding is to view every verse in the Bible through a dispensational lens. Without viewing scripture through this lens, anyone can say that a certain verse means anything they decide, and that it applies to anyone they decide. That makes a Christian very susceptible to false teaching, which could even hurt the foundation of their faith.

No - this is a big part of the overall problem. No man-made lens should ever be used to 'filter' the Bible. You have all of this backwards. You must take the Bible at-its-own-word 'unfiltered'. If you view it through a lens - any lens - you risk contorting it into something it is not. And, that is exactly what 'dispensationalism' does - it forces scripture into a prefabricated framework that is defined in men's minds but not in scripture.

 

[GaryA]

Daniel 9. I would include the actual verses, but whats the point? Verses about the end times is all throughout the Bible, not just in Revelation.

Nowhere in revelation does it state 7 years, but Daniel 9 does.

Why did you not include the actual verses?

You should include the verses.

Please show me the verses.

 

[GaryA]

During the tribulation, the time of Jacob’s Trouble?

The time of Jacob’s Trouble is not the 'tribulation'; rather, it is Armageddon.

 

[AndyC]

Why did you not include the actual verses?

You should include the verses.

Please show me the verses.

Weeks are each a period of 7 years. If you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the below, tomorrow I will include far more details.

Daniel 9. All the below in ( ) are my words.

24 “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; (7 weeks, plus 62 weeks = 69 weeks, leaving one week left)
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; (the AC confirms the covenant)
But in the middle of the week. (middle of the 7 year tribulation)
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.

 

[GaryA]

Weeks are each a period of 7 years. If you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the below, tomorrow I will include far more details.

Daniel 9. All the below in ( ) are my words.

24 “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

25 “Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; (7 weeks, plus 62 weeks = 69 weeks, leaving one week left)
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
26 “And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; (the AC confirms the covenant)
But in the middle of the week. (middle of the 7 year tribulation)
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.

But - where does it say that the 'tribulation' is one week?

You have misinterpreted these verses.

There is no 7-year tribulation period in these verses.

There is no 'antichrist' in these verses.

Please see:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Seventy_Weeks.html

 

[TabinRivCA]

@GaryA Do this commentary help:
Daniel said, “that it shall be times, times, and a half; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.” “Times, time, and half a time” is three and a half years. This is the halfway point through the 7-year tribulation.
Jesus said, “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place…” This abomination of desolation warns us about the beast putting up an image in the temple that he makes the world worship. Daniel 9:27 said this would happen in the middle of a “week,” which is 7 years. Revelation 11:2, 13:5, and Daniel 12:11 noted that the beast would do this for 42 months.
The first three and a half years will be a time of false peace and prosperity upon the earth, as the anti-Christ will make a treaty with the people of Israel. At the halfway point, the beast will set up an image in the temple, desecrating it. This begins the second half of the 7-year tribulation, and then God’s wrath is poured out until His judgment is completed.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

The folks who made the video in the OP is an atheist group making fun of an all to embarassing regularity among "Christian" circles. Day setting and calculating which is the product of dispensationalism is yet one more cause for pagans to mock believers. Saddly in this case they are right to do so. The baffoonery that is accepted among and around the church is absolutley sorrowful. Hucksters call themselves christian and tickel the ears of mislead people, and make a fortune at it, and ice the cake with making a mockery of the faith.

 

[ANDIAMO]

Yep, definitely a Biblical authority.

No - this is a big part of the overall problem. No man-made lens should ever be used to 'filter' the Bible. You have all of this backwards. You must take the Bible at-its-own-word 'unfiltered'. If you view it through a lens - any lens - you risk contorting it into something it is not. And, that is exactly what 'dispensationalism' does - it forces scripture into a prefabricated framework that is defined in men's minds but not in scripture.

I don’t agree with you. God clearly delineates two dispensations in His word: Law and Grace. He also makes a clear distinction between Israel and the Church. Nothing man made about it. Thanks for sharing though.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

I see that there are some here who don’t take the Bible, the Word of God, literally and assume an allegorical meaning of certain verses to suit whatever they believe to be the truth. That’s another opportunity for false teaching to come in and damage the foundations of a person’s faith.

Indeed.

 

[Fundaamental]

I found this video interesting

Bonjour mon ami, (good morning friend. 😊
Since so many are complaining about the author of the video being atheist, I did indeed pot a video 10 minutes long from a believer with the same sentiment, which really is the message the author of the op is portraying.
The fact is when tribulation starts we will know. And so will the atheists,
Now let's look at what happens when Gods wrath is upon the world, Noah's flood for instance the world was banished of people yet Noah and his family saw it all and where kept safe, but all tho they where children of God still after the flood, people have still become unbelievers from the descendants of Noah's family.

Because each person is an individual capable of being decieved, For God so loved the world he gave his one and only son, which means God was prepared to Sacrifice life to save life, even his own life.
Jesus suffered terribly whilst his children witnessed it.


And then after his life there was a person called doubting Thomas, who still would not believe until he saw Jesus again after the Resurrection.

The tribulation will be the same for many people who have not fully believed in full only in part.
For those people they will know that once again Jesus the son of God Is real when the wrath of the father is once again poured down upon this world.
But when Thomas did not believe the father was staring him right in the face with all the other children of God witnessing, and now testifying to the truth that this is what happened and that this is also what will happen again in the future where once again people will witness that God is real and people will start to believe.

But it is not over because they will need the help to believe in full.
Which is why children of God are needed.
Gods wrath will not touch the believer, but can warn the believer to step up ( as you quoted in your thread the next generation).

God could swallow a believer in a whale. And that was my very first lesson I learned about God as a youngster I never forgot.

He can depart the seas he can stop the flames he can tame the lions.

All acts that when wrath comes, his spirit is the lambs blood that is in the believer that will know who are his and who needs help.

The atheist is under the illusion he will be instantly killed whilst mocking people calling them selfs Christian will not.
This is a shambles that causes more unbelievers to emerge of what Gods word is all about.

 

[GaryA]

Do this commentary help:

I will see if I can write a more detailed response to your post a bit later on... (Right now is not a good time.)

In the meanwhile, please restate the above quoted statement in a more detailed manner so that I may know more specifically exactly what you are trying to communicate. { Thanks. }

 

[GaryA]

I don’t agree with you. God clearly delineates two dispensations in His word: Law and Grace. He also makes a clear distinction between Israel and the Church. Nothing man made about it. Thanks for sharing though.

At least you are civil about it - and, that is always nice to see. I would rather have a discussion - and, simply disagree where necessary and appropriate - than to have an argument - so, your approach is appreciated.

Keep in mind that I am talking about 'dispensationalism' as a method of analysis that may lead interpretation astray. (Because, it does.)

The distinction/separation of these things is clear enough in the scriptures without a man-made 'mechanism' (which, in its base definition, is an 'instrument' or 'device' that utilizes 'structure' and 'organization' to create a 'framework' for learning) to be a 'container' for the same. The problem is, the 'shape' of that 'framework' is often 'preformed' externally (without scripture as the guide). And, the next thing you know - you have invented a 'Great Tribulation' [period] that has/is its own 'dispensation' - which does not exist in scripture.

Whether you realize it or not - dispensationalism is a man-made lens...

If scripture does not "speak it directly" - it is man-made. Period.

 

[GaryA]

@GaryA Do this commentary help:
Daniel said, “that it shall be times, times, and a half; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.” “Times, time, and half a time” is three and a half years. This is the halfway point through the 7-year tribulation.
Jesus said, “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place…” This abomination of desolation warns us about the beast putting up an image in the temple that he makes the world worship. Daniel 9:27 said this would happen in the middle of a “week,” which is 7 years. Revelation 11:2, 13:5, and Daniel 12:11 noted that the beast would do this for 42 months.
The first three and a half years will be a time of false peace and prosperity upon the earth, as the anti-Christ will make a treaty with the people of Israel. At the halfway point, the beast will set up an image in the temple, desecrating it. This begins the second half of the 7-year tribulation, and then God’s wrath is poured out until His judgment is completed.

I will see if I can write a more detailed response to your post a bit later on... (Right now is not a good time.)

In the meanwhile, please restate the above quoted statement in a more detailed manner so that I may know more specifically exactly what you are trying to communicate. { Thanks. }

In lieu of the 'detailed' post (at least for now), let me offer this more general response.

From Seventy Weeks :

The idea that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel is not biblical.

The idea that the 70th week of Daniel represents a 7-year tribulation period is not biblical.

These two ideas have done more to hinder the proper understanding of End Times prophecy than anything else.

There is no gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel. All 70 weeks "came and went" in a single unbroken span of 490 years.

The entire 70 weeks of Daniel are 100% past history, with regard to the time span of the 70 weeks, or 490 years.

The end of the 69th week is the start of the 70th week. It is no different than any other two consecutive weeks.

The end of the 490 years marked the end of the 'Times of the Jews' and the start of the 'Times of the Gentiles'.

The last 490 years of the 'Times of the Jews' is exactly and precisely what the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy is about!

.
.
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A shamefully erroneous and wickedly dangerous interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 has been propagated for many generations.

It has attained to such extensive acceptance among Christians so as to become something that is forbidden to be questioned.

For a Christian in the modern day, it is increasingly important to have a proper biblical understanding of End Times prophecy.

I sincerely hope and pray that this discussion will provoke those who were taught that particular interpretation to question it.

 

[AndyC]

In lieu of the 'detailed' post (at least for now), let me offer this more general response.

From Seventy Weeks :

The idea that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel is not biblical.

The idea that the 70th week of Daniel represents a 7-year tribulation period is not biblical.

These two ideas have done more to hinder the proper understanding of End Times prophecy than anything else.

There is no gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel. All 70 weeks "came and went" in a single unbroken span of 490 years.

The entire 70 weeks of Daniel are 100% past history, with regard to the time span of the 70 weeks, or 490 years.

The end of the 69th week is the start of the 70th week. It is no different than any other two consecutive weeks.

The end of the 490 years marked the end of the 'Times of the Jews' and the start of the 'Times of the Gentiles'.

The last 490 years of the 'Times of the Jews' is exactly and precisely what the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy is about!

.
.
.

A shamefully erroneous and wickedly dangerous interpretation of Daniel 9:24-27 has been propagated for many generations.

It has attained to such extensive acceptance among Christians so as to become something that is forbidden to be questioned.

For a Christian in the modern day, it is increasingly important to have a proper biblical understanding of End Times prophecy.

I sincerely hope and pray that this discussion will provoke those who were taught that particular interpretation to question it.

Or, the truth of Daniel 9 is hard to understand by many. Far too many Christians have no interests in eschatology or only give it a quick look.

Proper understanding of the book of Daniel is KEY to understanding end times, especially Daniel 2,7, and 9.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The idea that there is a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel is not biblical....The idea that the 70th week of Daniel represents a 7-year tribulation period is not biblical.

If these two ideas were not biblical you would not have so many Bible scholars and Christians accepting them. There is absolutely NO HISTORICAL EVIDENCE that Daniel 9:24 has been actually fulfilled. And this has already been shown much eariler.

 

[studentoftheword]

AndyC said:
Many who thought they were Christians . . . will still be here.

and I certainly agree with this statement ------There are many ---many and many people who use the word Christian who have not received Jesus as their Lord and Saviour and who are not Saints but still sinners and they will be left behind to ride out the 7 year tribulation period -----and hopefully will receive Jesus in their hearts during this time of God's Wrath being poured out on all unbelievers ---God wants all to be with Him ----but not all will choose to come to Him in the end -----

Without receiving Jesus as their Lord and Saviour they will perish and experience the 2nd death -----

Born Again Christians will see the Upper Taker not the Undertaker -----

The upper taker

The undertaker

 

[Beckie]

I do not believe in pre trib rapture . I do not believe it is, or is not, a understanding unto Salvation . It is the way some folks see the scriptures . Having verbal battles amongst fellow Christians should not lead to dislike .... after the dust has settled. When i understood and accepted pretrib rapture i was saved i am still saved.

 

[GaryA]

And, the next thing you know - you have invented a 'Great Tribulation' [period] that has/is its own 'dispensation' - which does not exist in scripture.

The only 'tribulation' [period] that can be "properly-framed" as a 'dispensation' has the time span from the Resurrection of Christ at His first coming until His return at His second coming - the beginning of the Millennium - which would, at best, be the next 'dispensation'. The initial time frame indicated cannot be broken into smaller pieces and be biblical. The idea of a 7-year 'tribulation' [period] being defined as a 'dispensation' is not valid.

 

[Beckie]

Good ol variable dispensationalism

 

[GaryA]

Or, the truth of Daniel 9 is hard to understand by many.

I do not believe that Daniel 9 is hard to understand. Rather, I believe that most people are taught the 'pre-trib' view before they ever have a good opportunity to make a good solid [personal] study of what they have been taught to believe. They "assume" the belief/view that they are being taught - which is erroneous - thereby, putting themselves into error - and, perhaps, never even realizing it. They just "believe the preacher" - who is in error - and then - they are in error. Most people never actually make that [personal] study (including a lot of preachers) - they just accept what they were taught and believe it.

Then, they do not want to let go of what they have been taught. And, they vehemently refuse to look at scripture without the 'pre-trib' filter...

Far too many Christians have no interests in eschatology or only give it a quick look.

In a way, this is part of the problem. Also, it is beside the point.

Proper understanding of the book of Daniel is KEY to understanding end times, especially Daniel 2,7, and 9.

Exactly! Correct! So, each had better make sure they understand it properly...

This means not allowing non-biblical ideas, methods, etc. influence you as you study the scriptures.

The only true way to do this is to "forget everything you have been taught" and study it - "from a fresh approach" - "with a clean slate" - strictly from scripture - the Holy Spirit being your only council - without being led astray by the modern erroneous views that led you astray in the first place.

Soon enough, the serious-and-honest bible student discovers that there are many things they have been assuming/believing that simply are not in the Bible.

Any 'pre-trib' person who will not let go of the 'pre-trib' filter - will never understand it properly until they do...