Thank you journey41, you are correct in telling me to take it gentle. I have been a bit too attacking & will take your advice on board. I am new to this site & it is dawning on me that my approach has been clumsy. I am not too proud to admit that. I hope then, this isn't too harsh ? During the early stages of the J.W's here in Australia, they were very aggressive in their preaching that Jesus was unimportant, that He was 'just' Michael the archangel. They soon changed tact when realizing this was harming their recruiting. Now they preach Jesus also, however when pressed, they still hold to the whole Michael is Jesus doctrine. And encourage us not to pray to our Lord but to pray to Jehova directly. This goes against all scripture, they are denying the son, therefore denying the father..i don't think they can see that? Reports have revealed the shocking abuse of the wives of many of these followers, the divorce rates & encouragement by this group to their 'members' to leave their wedded ones if the other is not a J.W.. this also is against God's will. Yes the J.W movement has quite a bit to answer to.
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Hi chars, i'll make a couple more brief points before replying thruthfully to your last statement to me re: bitterness. Thats a fair statement.
The horses of Zechariah : Notice in Zech 6:1 these four chariots emerged from between two brass mountains. Notice v5 that these are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. Note v2In these chariots are horses, thats plural. So in these chariots in Zechs vision emerged horses. These horses are then sent out into the world. The black & white are only for the North, the grisled go south, the bay are to walk throughout the whole earth. The brass mountains is a clue as to when this occured. That will open a whole new argument so i will leave it alone. The four horses of Rev are singular, they are time periods in stages, Zechs horses are released together, big difference. Rev 1:1 is my whole point against the horses of Zech & Rev. Let me quote that verse please : The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John. Since the 4 horses are contained in revelations, they were revealed only then, to John, Zech is roughly 1500 yrs before John. He had no part to play in the book of Revelations. If he did, God would have told us like He did to Daniel that that information was to be sealed for the last days. This didn't happen. And God doesn't 'miss' leaving out such important information. Johns revelations were TO SHORTLY COME TO PASS. That means that Johns four horses havn't happened yet at that point !! So your point of only then these horses go out in full force does not correlate to what God is revealing to us. Because they are only released ONCE.
Images & idols. I need no cross to remind me of our Lords sacrifice. It is burned into my heart & soul. If the cross disappeared, my memory of His glorious deed would not. I am shaky on the emergence of the cross as the symbol of christianity.Though i do remember reading that it's emergence apparently appeared in a vision to one of the kings or generals during or directly prior the crusades, and from there adopted as the symbol of Christ's followers. Yet before that, for all that time, no sybol or image was needed. The fish was a symbol that had an entirely different purpose again, so it cannot be used against my statement. And since Christ never instructed His sheep to make such an image (cross), but a man did for the unifying of his troops for ensuing war, i reject it.
The churches of Rev. this argument will continue into a saga, lets leave it for now. Maybe start a new post we can debate it on?
Upon this rock.. Christ preached outside the main establishment, was considered a rebel, so were His apostles. Likewise are those today who are outside the so called classical teachings of the establishment. His people are awaiting their homeland Zion to appear and be established at His coming. His church is not yet established with authority in this world, yet the mainstream churches are. See the conflict? Zion is described as the Holy city, the Church, the Mountain of God amongst other titles. The world rejects His Church. His message. His Church are peoples, they are the temples, reaching individuals who are seeking in spirit and truth. Not reaching the MANY as the establishments do. These temples are rejected and suffer tribulation in His name, and will suffer 'the' main tribulation at the false prophets hands also, and are aware of this fact. But most other churches will apparently be 'raptured' and spared this 'horror'. The world accepts these churches. It's not so doom and gloom. It's easy to face. He who tells sweet lies is preferred before he who speaks bitter truth.
Anti church stance.. Jesus was very angry at the religious establishment during His time in the flesh, His words were far more fiery than mine, yet He wasn't filled with a corrosive hatred that ate at Him from the inside. He even made a whip and forced all the money changers from His Fathers temple of the time. Thats pretty angry ! The apostles were blunter than me and insulted the learned men of their times, calling them fools and hypocrites, they also weren't consumed with hate. I have no hatred towards you the people, my anger is at the doctrines being taught. Just like Christ's anger and His apostles anger. So they get angry too. My first posting on this site was met with insults. Is this Christs way? When He was insulted, He let rip at those arrogant men. I, for the sake of the searchers who might be reading, held back not my tounge also. But was less direct than our Lord and His apostles. I will not be silenced, for the searchers sakes, by insults from those who hope to appear superior and sole authorities in our Lord. They have churches to preach from. This site should not also become their tool for indoctrinating. I am sure there are others who will also stand against them. When insults are directed at those with different views, it must be met, or they will seem to have won, and then none will dare question. This cannot be allowed to happen. At any cost.
Am i a prophet? Of course not. I am a mere man. I have no 'established church' to defend, metaphorically speaking, nor would God need a mere man like me to defend Him. I accept your insult because i slanted you also. Thats fair, but what i can do which you cannot, is consider every argument without fear of 'excommunication' if a new explanation corrected any mistake i may make. You however cannot. Yours is set in stone and your masters will stomach no deviation from their interpretations. I claim no authority, i am merely making points. Now that i understand certain types on this site, my defensiveness has passed. My clumsiness i will correct, and let you insult me without insulting back. Forgive me if i upset you. But i won't submit to browbeating.
The horses of Zechariah : Notice in Zech 6:1 these four chariots emerged from between two brass mountains. Notice v5 that these are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. Note v2In these chariots are horses, thats plural. So in these chariots in Zechs vision emerged horses. These horses are then sent out into the world. The black & white are only for the North, the grisled go south, the bay are to walk throughout the whole earth. The brass mountains is a clue as to when this occured. That will open a whole new argument so i will leave it alone. The four horses of Rev are singular, they are time periods in stages, Zechs horses are released together, big difference. Rev 1:1 is my whole point against the horses of Zech & Rev. Let me quote that verse please : The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John. Since the 4 horses are contained in revelations, they were revealed only then, to John, Zech is roughly 1500 yrs before John. He had no part to play in the book of Revelations. If he did, God would have told us like He did to Daniel that that information was to be sealed for the last days. This didn't happen. And God doesn't 'miss' leaving out such important information. Johns revelations were TO SHORTLY COME TO PASS. That means that Johns four horses havn't happened yet at that point !! So your point of only then these horses go out in full force does not correlate to what God is revealing to us. Because they are only released ONCE.
Images & idols. I need no cross to remind me of our Lords sacrifice. It is burned into my heart & soul. If the cross disappeared, my memory of His glorious deed would not. I am shaky on the emergence of the cross as the symbol of christianity.Though i do remember reading that it's emergence apparently appeared in a vision to one of the kings or generals during or directly prior the crusades, and from there adopted as the symbol of Christ's followers. Yet before that, for all that time, no sybol or image was needed. The fish was a symbol that had an entirely different purpose again, so it cannot be used against my statement. And since Christ never instructed His sheep to make such an image (cross), but a man did for the unifying of his troops for ensuing war, i reject it.
The churches of Rev. this argument will continue into a saga, lets leave it for now. Maybe start a new post we can debate it on?
Upon this rock.. Christ preached outside the main establishment, was considered a rebel, so were His apostles. Likewise are those today who are outside the so called classical teachings of the establishment. His people are awaiting their homeland Zion to appear and be established at His coming. His church is not yet established with authority in this world, yet the mainstream churches are. See the conflict? Zion is described as the Holy city, the Church, the Mountain of God amongst other titles. The world rejects His Church. His message. His Church are peoples, they are the temples, reaching individuals who are seeking in spirit and truth. Not reaching the MANY as the establishments do. These temples are rejected and suffer tribulation in His name, and will suffer 'the' main tribulation at the false prophets hands also, and are aware of this fact. But most other churches will apparently be 'raptured' and spared this 'horror'. The world accepts these churches. It's not so doom and gloom. It's easy to face. He who tells sweet lies is preferred before he who speaks bitter truth.
Anti church stance.. Jesus was very angry at the religious establishment during His time in the flesh, His words were far more fiery than mine, yet He wasn't filled with a corrosive hatred that ate at Him from the inside. He even made a whip and forced all the money changers from His Fathers temple of the time. Thats pretty angry ! The apostles were blunter than me and insulted the learned men of their times, calling them fools and hypocrites, they also weren't consumed with hate. I have no hatred towards you the people, my anger is at the doctrines being taught. Just like Christ's anger and His apostles anger. So they get angry too. My first posting on this site was met with insults. Is this Christs way? When He was insulted, He let rip at those arrogant men. I, for the sake of the searchers who might be reading, held back not my tounge also. But was less direct than our Lord and His apostles. I will not be silenced, for the searchers sakes, by insults from those who hope to appear superior and sole authorities in our Lord. They have churches to preach from. This site should not also become their tool for indoctrinating. I am sure there are others who will also stand against them. When insults are directed at those with different views, it must be met, or they will seem to have won, and then none will dare question. This cannot be allowed to happen. At any cost.
Am i a prophet? Of course not. I am a mere man. I have no 'established church' to defend, metaphorically speaking, nor would God need a mere man like me to defend Him. I accept your insult because i slanted you also. Thats fair, but what i can do which you cannot, is consider every argument without fear of 'excommunication' if a new explanation corrected any mistake i may make. You however cannot. Yours is set in stone and your masters will stomach no deviation from their interpretations. I claim no authority, i am merely making points. Now that i understand certain types on this site, my defensiveness has passed. My clumsiness i will correct, and let you insult me without insulting back. Forgive me if i upset you. But i won't submit to browbeating.
Yeah very clever age, that was a good one. I have noticed you are refraining and chars is now the mouth, & are both working in tandem against me. Good cop, bad cop? Lol, I accept your challenge. Chars we have our differences, These are not mine alone. Many see what i see, many. I do not want to hurt, but how can hurt be avoided when only bluntness can be expressed to awaken questionings? Will you wait 30 yrs before realising what God is saying? As i have witnessed many who have come out of churches saying the same things? WHY weren't we told?? We don't have that long. We have a matter of years. So my attempts are out of love. Try to see that. What did God say when the prophets were preaching peace? He said there would be no peace. What happened to His prophets that gave that message? They were rejected, stoned, belittled. What happened? God's word prevailed and peace fled. What does God say about the Jews, the pastors & churches of yesterday & today? I don't want to hurt you or anyone. I will give the scriptures. You decide for yourself. I will refrain from direct attacks towards the establishments, in case people are being insulted. But will not refrain from quoting scripture that is against those establishments. These are God's warnings. Not mine. I will be guilty in His eyes if silenced on this subject. I will show no respect unto persons as His commandment instructs us also to observe. In other words change my opinions because they are unpopular. That should should in itself show i am after no recognition as some prophet, which i am not. For i am getting the opposite, i am getting reviled. However Truth at all costs. Even if it sows enemies against me. Because it's not about you nor me nor the churches, its about the truth.
Now note God's language in all these. It's dual meaning as He is want to do. Remembering that God is yesterday today and tomorrow, His people are not all Israel, the Gentiles are His people too, Spiritual Israel.. So we fall under these warnings also. They are examples for past and future generations. So they are not set and sealed for those time periods, but are ongoing for all generations.
Isaiah 3: 6-14 & 24: 1-16, Jeremiah 6: 13 & 8: 9-11 & 10:21 & 12: 10-11 & 14: 12-13 & 23: 19-32 & 25: 32-38 & 50:6 & 51:23. Ezekial 13: 3-17 & 22:28 & 33:32 & 34: 2-27. Hosea 4:1-6 & 6: 6. Amos 5: 18-23 & 8: 9-13 & 9: 10. Micha 3: 10-11. Zephaniah 3: 1-4. Revelation 3: 14-18.
There are more yet. But if these have no impact then nothing will. Please read them all and the surrounding scriptures in those certain chapters. You will note in many that future prophecies are being slipped in. So therefore it affects us also, not just the flesh Jews.
Now note God's language in all these. It's dual meaning as He is want to do. Remembering that God is yesterday today and tomorrow, His people are not all Israel, the Gentiles are His people too, Spiritual Israel.. So we fall under these warnings also. They are examples for past and future generations. So they are not set and sealed for those time periods, but are ongoing for all generations.
Isaiah 3: 6-14 & 24: 1-16, Jeremiah 6: 13 & 8: 9-11 & 10:21 & 12: 10-11 & 14: 12-13 & 23: 19-32 & 25: 32-38 & 50:6 & 51:23. Ezekial 13: 3-17 & 22:28 & 33:32 & 34: 2-27. Hosea 4:1-6 & 6: 6. Amos 5: 18-23 & 8: 9-13 & 9: 10. Micha 3: 10-11. Zephaniah 3: 1-4. Revelation 3: 14-18.
There are more yet. But if these have no impact then nothing will. Please read them all and the surrounding scriptures in those certain chapters. You will note in many that future prophecies are being slipped in. So therefore it affects us also, not just the flesh Jews.
C
I will read your list as you wish. I have no doubt that judgement begins at the house of the Lord. Nevertheless, you do not have the authority or the standing to put aside the body of Christ, including the organization. The apostles recognized the need for organization in order to accomplish the God's will for the church. You are proud to be a member of no congregation, so let me ask you this--how do you reach the orphaned children of Swaziland? How do you become a minister to the suffering in Haiti? How do you reach the hundreds of millions that are spiritually lost in Japan? How do you obey God to fellowship? To whom do you come under authority to? Who do you go to if you are desparate? Without the organization of the church, you would not have a Bible in your hand today, in fact you would never have heard of Jesus. But for almost two thousand years believers have gathered together to fellowship, to pray, to worship, to minister, and to reach the world. Without the organization, the Body would have floundered. Jesus established the church, the apostles organized it, and even in heaven, his bride will exist.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light; and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things
Isaiah 54:16
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Job 26:13
By His spirit He hath garnished the heavens; His hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
Exodus 4:11
And the Lord said unto him,Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb,or deaf,or the seeing or the blind? have not I the Lord?
Lamentations 3:38
Out of the mouth of the Most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no God with Me, I kill, and I make alive, I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand.
There is another quote, it goes something like this, is there evil in a city and I have not done this ?
Psalm 111:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; a good understanding have all they that do His commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Proverbs 28:5
Evil men understand not judgement: but they that seek the Lord understand all things.
Psalm 25: 14
The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him; and He will shew them His covenant
So the churches gave us the word of God ? I thought God did ? Don't you understand the role of the mainstream establishments? Do you understand His secret? If all the churches understood then it wouldn't be a secret would it. Billions then would know. His church He built is still standing firm. Your interpretation of who that church is, is the problem. All the poor of the world and those suffering, do you know these are all fulfilling God's prophecies ? will you fight against God and attempt to undo His plan? Do you know His plan? Don't bother reading that list Chars. You sre not seeking for Him. You are content in your heart with what you have. God will decide if you are worthy, everything is His will. I don't know you. But your inner self has been manifesting in your manner of speach towards me. You are desperately trying to appear nice but your contempt is evident. You are not defending God, you are defending churches. You mention those in Swaziland & Haiti. Read these scriptures i just inserted. Do you honestly think God did NOT punish Haiti for example?? Do you know what an abomination vodoo is to God? Not to mention their catholic based idol worshipping they mix it with ! God punishes these places & what do you do? You rebuild them & they then become twice the den of iniquity. Christ said we will always have the poor with us. He does not want us going out into the world like individual saviours interfering with His will. No, He wants us to help those around us. He knows where His people are, who they can reach, and those they reach and assist are those who God wants us to assist. No, you greatly err. And your anger is misplaced. You do not know me, and do you really know Him ? Your degrees and your church cannot save you. Only the Word can save you. No matter how much good we do in our life, it can never 'pay' for the gift of everlasting life with Him. That's why we need the grace that Christ gives us. That grace justifies our good deeds. But we need to know who it is that gives that grace first, before we can receive it. Christ is not God the Father. If we say He is, then that grace is lacking. For grace is given to those who know Him. And if grace is lacking then it stands to reason the understanding of Him is lacking also. And His secret will never be revealed. You can however get to know Him. Turn to Him and forget these establishments with thei doctrines that put you to sleep. Put oil in your lamp so you won't have to buy it from the money lenders (churches) any longer. The door is closing.
I form the light; and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things
Isaiah 54:16
Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Job 26:13
By His spirit He hath garnished the heavens; His hand hath formed the crooked serpent.
Exodus 4:11
And the Lord said unto him,Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb,or deaf,or the seeing or the blind? have not I the Lord?
Lamentations 3:38
Out of the mouth of the Most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Deuteronomy 32:39
See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no God with Me, I kill, and I make alive, I wound, and I heal; neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand.
There is another quote, it goes something like this, is there evil in a city and I have not done this ?
Psalm 111:10
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom; a good understanding have all they that do His commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Proverbs 28:5
Evil men understand not judgement: but they that seek the Lord understand all things.
Psalm 25: 14
The secret of the Lord is with them that fear Him; and He will shew them His covenant
So the churches gave us the word of God ? I thought God did ? Don't you understand the role of the mainstream establishments? Do you understand His secret? If all the churches understood then it wouldn't be a secret would it. Billions then would know. His church He built is still standing firm. Your interpretation of who that church is, is the problem. All the poor of the world and those suffering, do you know these are all fulfilling God's prophecies ? will you fight against God and attempt to undo His plan? Do you know His plan? Don't bother reading that list Chars. You sre not seeking for Him. You are content in your heart with what you have. God will decide if you are worthy, everything is His will. I don't know you. But your inner self has been manifesting in your manner of speach towards me. You are desperately trying to appear nice but your contempt is evident. You are not defending God, you are defending churches. You mention those in Swaziland & Haiti. Read these scriptures i just inserted. Do you honestly think God did NOT punish Haiti for example?? Do you know what an abomination vodoo is to God? Not to mention their catholic based idol worshipping they mix it with ! God punishes these places & what do you do? You rebuild them & they then become twice the den of iniquity. Christ said we will always have the poor with us. He does not want us going out into the world like individual saviours interfering with His will. No, He wants us to help those around us. He knows where His people are, who they can reach, and those they reach and assist are those who God wants us to assist. No, you greatly err. And your anger is misplaced. You do not know me, and do you really know Him ? Your degrees and your church cannot save you. Only the Word can save you. No matter how much good we do in our life, it can never 'pay' for the gift of everlasting life with Him. That's why we need the grace that Christ gives us. That grace justifies our good deeds. But we need to know who it is that gives that grace first, before we can receive it. Christ is not God the Father. If we say He is, then that grace is lacking. For grace is given to those who know Him. And if grace is lacking then it stands to reason the understanding of Him is lacking also. And His secret will never be revealed. You can however get to know Him. Turn to Him and forget these establishments with thei doctrines that put you to sleep. Put oil in your lamp so you won't have to buy it from the money lenders (churches) any longer. The door is closing.
C
Actually, Jesus Christ has saved me.
Let me start out by pointing out what I said about the Bible that you hold in your hand. You use the KJV, a Bible that was translated by Anglicans, part of the mainline churches that you despise so much. One of the popes saw Angles from Britain and was so impressed that he sent a man named Augustine to preach the gospel in Britain. I think that you are British, so you most likely trace your faith to that event. A Roman Catholic reintroduced Christianity into Britain. Now you are on a site that is established, I believe, by a Baptist. You are here sharing you views on scripture by the ministry of another "mainline" Christian.
Regarding the people of Swaziland and Haiti and so many other places, Jesus said to go into all the world and proclaim the good news. He did not say to proclaim God's wrath, but the good news of Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter if their condition is caused by the judgement of God, our message remains that God loves the world so much that He sent His Son, so that whoever places his faith in Jesus will have salvation from their sins and live eternally with Him. My denomination has seen over one hundred million respond in faith in the last hundred years. I am not ashamed of that.
Regarding "going out into the world like saviours and interfering with His will", Jesus said when He is hungry, we can feed Him and when he is thirsty, we can give Him something to drink. How might we do this? By doing it to the least. James says that if someone comes to you in this way and you say "God in peace" that you have done nothing and that you have not practices faith. So, it seems to me that His will is for us to go into the world as representatives of our Saviour.
Regarding your secrets, I have no interest in them. My life is in Christ.
Finally there is this:
Don't bother reading that list Chars. You sre not seeking for Him.
And then there is this:
You do not know me, and do you really know Him ? Your degrees and your church cannot save you.
And finally there is this:
And His secret will never be revealed. You can however get to know Him. Turn to Him and forget these establishments with thei doctrines that put you to sleep. Put oil in your lamp so you won't have to buy it from the money lenders (churches) any longer. The door is closing.
You said that I do not know you. I think you have told me quite enough about yourself.
Let me start out by pointing out what I said about the Bible that you hold in your hand. You use the KJV, a Bible that was translated by Anglicans, part of the mainline churches that you despise so much. One of the popes saw Angles from Britain and was so impressed that he sent a man named Augustine to preach the gospel in Britain. I think that you are British, so you most likely trace your faith to that event. A Roman Catholic reintroduced Christianity into Britain. Now you are on a site that is established, I believe, by a Baptist. You are here sharing you views on scripture by the ministry of another "mainline" Christian.
Regarding the people of Swaziland and Haiti and so many other places, Jesus said to go into all the world and proclaim the good news. He did not say to proclaim God's wrath, but the good news of Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter if their condition is caused by the judgement of God, our message remains that God loves the world so much that He sent His Son, so that whoever places his faith in Jesus will have salvation from their sins and live eternally with Him. My denomination has seen over one hundred million respond in faith in the last hundred years. I am not ashamed of that.
Regarding "going out into the world like saviours and interfering with His will", Jesus said when He is hungry, we can feed Him and when he is thirsty, we can give Him something to drink. How might we do this? By doing it to the least. James says that if someone comes to you in this way and you say "God in peace" that you have done nothing and that you have not practices faith. So, it seems to me that His will is for us to go into the world as representatives of our Saviour.
Regarding your secrets, I have no interest in them. My life is in Christ.
Finally there is this:
Don't bother reading that list Chars. You sre not seeking for Him.
And then there is this:
You do not know me, and do you really know Him ? Your degrees and your church cannot save you.
And finally there is this:
And His secret will never be revealed. You can however get to know Him. Turn to Him and forget these establishments with thei doctrines that put you to sleep. Put oil in your lamp so you won't have to buy it from the money lenders (churches) any longer. The door is closing.
You said that I do not know you. I think you have told me quite enough about yourself.
Christian Church attendance world wide is now down to 16% and falling. Some peaks occur periodically but that downward trend remains. A great falling away is certainly underway. The churhes aren't feeding the searchers with the solid answers they seek. It's just milk over & over again. I won't bother pointing out all your subtle insults, just one will do. And not just in this thread. I don't enjoy this animosity one bit either Chars. If a police officer warned you against transgressing the law, would you revile him? Accuse him of angry judgement against you? If a doctor told you to stop smoking would you accuse him of judging you? Do you think im not aware of your whole correspondence with me? Trying to get me to say im some prophet for example amongst your attempts at angering me??If you would speak as a prophet, do not be reluctant of the title. My concern is for the hurt that you are showing toward churches in general and any who would speak to you about these matters. I assure you that I am not easily browbeat either. Very sneaky, it was worth a try huh?.Lol. Insulting while appearing humble. Hoping to undermine me in my responses? To belittle me? To cast your net before me hoping i would blindly step into it? And from a priest at that? Do you think my words are intended to hurt you? Don't you see the meaning of the intentions behind those words? Which are God's words. For the sake of the searchers should i put my tail between my legs and leave 'some' of them to fall into your net? To disappear quietly into the night? I would then be guilty. Am i someone great? NO. But i do have some knowledge. I will share freely without strings attatched. Are your assumptions towards me pure? Did you consider God's words i merely quoted? Did you searh them out? Can you face His meanings behind those words? I don't wish to fill the pews of any congregation (in case im accused of attempting to start some cult etc). I would merely say read and learn of our Lord in your own homes and God bless. He will guide you. But im here if needed. So nothing sinister ther in my approach. No payment required. No cult to join. No church to form. Heck they never need contact me again, as long as they are searching from anything i might say, then thats my job done. God will do the rest. God Himself uses wording that appears harsh indeed. But His purpose of those words is out of love. Love can be rough at times. It has to be. To shake people awake. But His intentions are pure. You question me concerning fellowship. Is the Lord so powerless that He can't draw His people together? I have fellowship. You and i are seperate indeed, who knows maybe one day that could change. But i wont insult you back. Im questioning you, not insulting you. You say i have told you quite enough about myself. I praise the Lord for this. We are witnesses now. May God judge between us. One last point. Im not against the church goers, but their shepherds. Big difference. I wonder if you will try to manipulate that statement also, of which im not afraid to declare. I don't think we need get any more personal in this heat we generate. Take care.
Lol, Ok Chars lets continue a little bit more..
Just as important, in the Western world, the church has lost touch with the culture. They no longer understand what the people need "saved" from. But we still do not have the right to sweep aside what Jesus has ordained and the apostles established through the power of the Holy Spirit. Every true reformation began inside the church. Martin Luther put his these on the door of a Roman Catholic church. Wesley started his ministry within Anglicanism.
Wesley, Martin Luther, Catholics, Mormans, JW's etc etc. How can reformation begin in Christs church? Christ is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. His church and His doctrines are set in stone. If reformation is required, then something obviously is terribly wrong in these churches. Christ is not divided. His church is united and unchangeing. His message is the same as it was when given to us. It's these very churches that are fighting over that message. Christ is not the author of confusion. Does He not tell us that? Does He not say that His people will understand His doctrine? What is occuring in these movements tells us the opposite. There is confusion, contradictions etc on nearly every subject and not just the prophetic side. So that being said, i am not attempting to brush aside what Christ has ordained, if i were attempting to sweep aside anything it would be what man has ordained. And to presume i could achieve that anyway would be lunacy. So really, i am merely pointing it out. So then we need to identify which church is speaking His Word. It cannot be all of them. They all disagree and their doctrines are too far apart from eachother. Oh can i ask, do you believe it was the catholics, as they believe, that the 'upon this rock I will build My church' , is, as they claim, their church? Considering His church was already established 330 odd years before that religion emerged?
I consider all the proclamation of the word of God to be prophetic. You may check my previous posts to see. I have no doubt that you are designed for a prophetic ministry, but you need to deal with your anger. You need to be tempered. "In vessels less tempered you sometimes get a little sand in the wine."
Yes any who speak His truth are in a sense prophesying. But as you know there are no more prophets until the last two who appear in Israel before the Lords appearing. Moses and Elijah to my understanding. Yes A.O.K has riled me greatly. I do not like the way he speaks to others. He is the focus of my church slant. Regardless of my views which i declared and hold, he is the focus. I should have been more tempered i agree. Yet humility needs be practised by him. Petty insults like the screw image is just childish. I lash out through experience of debating with types like him. When challenged they turn to insults and belittlement, one gets tired of that pride, hence my seeming anger which you point out, it's actually frustration. The apostles didn't stomach it, and neither should we. It harms Christs message. I won't tolerate it either. When needed i will speak out again and again.
Take God's words for what they are. Is that not what you asked of me. If you would have influence, you must let go of power. Jesus is the perfect example of this. He laid aside His power to become a man and die for us, gaining influence. You have a message burning inside you. You are proclaiming that with power, but you haven't gained influence. In order to gain that influence, you need to forgive whatever hurt is causing this great bitterness toward the church
I seek no personal influence Chars. I aim to stir debate. Christ tell us His church is only established at His arrival. It was scattered remember. It still stands, but now , as individual temples, are His people, awaiting their High Priest and Saviour to herald in His glorious Church with authority in this world. This is my whole point. Any person can join His church if they desire it. Every individual therefore becomes part of the whole. Every member seves a purpose. Waiting for that church to appear. We are all His temples, that is a subtle clue. So you see His church that you think im trashing is not the same church in my eyes.
In the end, only God can and will judge those things
Yes that is true. I will however take back my harsh words in that statement. Your intentions i have no right to assume knowledge of. I apologise humbly.
And how do you do that without a place to gather? And who arranges that? And how do you know when it will happen and where? And who makes sure that there is enough seating? You see, this is how it happens. If the Lord blesses your contueing fellowship, you end up with organization. You don't just show up spontaneously
Remember Christ said, 'Where two or three are gathered in My name, I am there in the midst of them'. Other statements such as ' and the Church that was in his/her house' . The temples Christ speaks of, being His followers, Where they gather in His name, is where the church is. Everybody knows deep down that many who go to church, go to feel better about themselves. Many i say, not all. Many believers & unbelievers agree on this. I've heard it all my life, even from those who go. They go to hear comforting words, and feel they've done their bit. But are they truly searching? Do all of them question you on everything to do with our Lord? Everything? How much personal change are they willing to cede for Him? Most prefer the pastors to do the hard yards and gladly accept all that is told to them. But Christ told us ALL to SEEK Him. Not to let others do it for us. What if error is being taught? He won't accept excuses of 'Oh Lord i was deceived' He will say, why didn't you test it? Why are you naked (of knowledge) Was it not important enough to give your full attention to? That shows a lack of true want to know Him. Remember the greatest commandment. To love our God with all our heart mind and soul. The GREATEST COMMAND. If we don't have time to diligently search then He is put into second place behind our worldly cares and that commandment is broken. He deserves first place. He won't accept second and rejects those who practise that second placing. Why? It reflects whats truly important to them thats why. He likens His knowledge to Jewels. If we liken His written Word to a map to find those jewels, i doubt people would be leaving it in anothers hand to reveal, they would be scrutinising every inch of that map guardedly. God deserves the same diligence from everybody, the same attention. But it is not so. So if we take that into consideration, mayhaps the seating wouldn't be a problem. Im not being harsh, it is just the way it is. That is why the truth is bitter in our belly. Many we love dearly just don't care for Him so much. And when i said they are rejected, they still have hope, it's just that as Christ says, the Word will judge them who are 'outside', all second placers, a harsher judgement to face with grace lacking. In other words they face the second resurrection judgement.
If you have no second thoughts about what you have said to me, if you are satisfied with the impression I have of you, then peace be to you. I am not satisfied with what you think of me, not because it changes my relationship with God, but because I would have desired for our communication to be more useful to you.
All communications are useful. I am finding differnt angles of debating on this site i don't encounter often enough through peoples lack of caring towards these subjects/ God. I have no problem talking to anyone..even age of knowledge , lol, though i doubt he'd care to talk with me. Im just guessing of course. I could be wrong. I am not going to brush any with different views aside. That would be proud. I will gladly talk with you or anyone. I take exception to belittleing is all, and will fire up as certain prophets and apostles were known to do, its called passion. My approach could have been better. Definately.
You have sampled only a few. There are countless millions of undershepherds who have given up more that you can imagine to serve the Great Shepherd.
I don't brush everyone with the same brush. Back to the whole 'which church is His' thorn that pricks us. Many have good intentions, of that im sure, so did the prophets of Israel that preached peace. God destroyed them. I'd hate for these undershepherds to share that same fate. As i mentioned before, good intentions and truth are two seperate vessels in God's eyes. Two seperate meanings that reveal our heart of hearts that only God can see. That is the bitterness in our belly. Painful truth. There are no grey areas with God. We all know what happens to 'lukewarmers', they are identified by their doctrines. Error is the revealer. They are passionate too. But their hearts won't submit fully, so rebellion clouds their understanding as it did mine for most of my life. Thats why i don't judge them, i hope to warn them. Yet warnings can appear as judgements. How does one navigate that minefield when the most destructive mines are the ones buried deepest? Needing more direct extraction methods? I am no where near perfect, my debating by text slowly improving. All gestures, tones etc are lacking in this method. Words can bite deeper than intended. Maybe Age need consider that as i am discovering also. Gentle as doves, sly as serpents. We all could improve on that command. All of us. So i have not discarded you in my heart Chars. We got heated is all.
Just as important, in the Western world, the church has lost touch with the culture. They no longer understand what the people need "saved" from. But we still do not have the right to sweep aside what Jesus has ordained and the apostles established through the power of the Holy Spirit. Every true reformation began inside the church. Martin Luther put his these on the door of a Roman Catholic church. Wesley started his ministry within Anglicanism.
Wesley, Martin Luther, Catholics, Mormans, JW's etc etc. How can reformation begin in Christs church? Christ is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. His church and His doctrines are set in stone. If reformation is required, then something obviously is terribly wrong in these churches. Christ is not divided. His church is united and unchangeing. His message is the same as it was when given to us. It's these very churches that are fighting over that message. Christ is not the author of confusion. Does He not tell us that? Does He not say that His people will understand His doctrine? What is occuring in these movements tells us the opposite. There is confusion, contradictions etc on nearly every subject and not just the prophetic side. So that being said, i am not attempting to brush aside what Christ has ordained, if i were attempting to sweep aside anything it would be what man has ordained. And to presume i could achieve that anyway would be lunacy. So really, i am merely pointing it out. So then we need to identify which church is speaking His Word. It cannot be all of them. They all disagree and their doctrines are too far apart from eachother. Oh can i ask, do you believe it was the catholics, as they believe, that the 'upon this rock I will build My church' , is, as they claim, their church? Considering His church was already established 330 odd years before that religion emerged?
I consider all the proclamation of the word of God to be prophetic. You may check my previous posts to see. I have no doubt that you are designed for a prophetic ministry, but you need to deal with your anger. You need to be tempered. "In vessels less tempered you sometimes get a little sand in the wine."
Yes any who speak His truth are in a sense prophesying. But as you know there are no more prophets until the last two who appear in Israel before the Lords appearing. Moses and Elijah to my understanding. Yes A.O.K has riled me greatly. I do not like the way he speaks to others. He is the focus of my church slant. Regardless of my views which i declared and hold, he is the focus. I should have been more tempered i agree. Yet humility needs be practised by him. Petty insults like the screw image is just childish. I lash out through experience of debating with types like him. When challenged they turn to insults and belittlement, one gets tired of that pride, hence my seeming anger which you point out, it's actually frustration. The apostles didn't stomach it, and neither should we. It harms Christs message. I won't tolerate it either. When needed i will speak out again and again.
Take God's words for what they are. Is that not what you asked of me. If you would have influence, you must let go of power. Jesus is the perfect example of this. He laid aside His power to become a man and die for us, gaining influence. You have a message burning inside you. You are proclaiming that with power, but you haven't gained influence. In order to gain that influence, you need to forgive whatever hurt is causing this great bitterness toward the church
I seek no personal influence Chars. I aim to stir debate. Christ tell us His church is only established at His arrival. It was scattered remember. It still stands, but now , as individual temples, are His people, awaiting their High Priest and Saviour to herald in His glorious Church with authority in this world. This is my whole point. Any person can join His church if they desire it. Every individual therefore becomes part of the whole. Every member seves a purpose. Waiting for that church to appear. We are all His temples, that is a subtle clue. So you see His church that you think im trashing is not the same church in my eyes.
In the end, only God can and will judge those things
Yes that is true. I will however take back my harsh words in that statement. Your intentions i have no right to assume knowledge of. I apologise humbly.
And how do you do that without a place to gather? And who arranges that? And how do you know when it will happen and where? And who makes sure that there is enough seating? You see, this is how it happens. If the Lord blesses your contueing fellowship, you end up with organization. You don't just show up spontaneously
Remember Christ said, 'Where two or three are gathered in My name, I am there in the midst of them'. Other statements such as ' and the Church that was in his/her house' . The temples Christ speaks of, being His followers, Where they gather in His name, is where the church is. Everybody knows deep down that many who go to church, go to feel better about themselves. Many i say, not all. Many believers & unbelievers agree on this. I've heard it all my life, even from those who go. They go to hear comforting words, and feel they've done their bit. But are they truly searching? Do all of them question you on everything to do with our Lord? Everything? How much personal change are they willing to cede for Him? Most prefer the pastors to do the hard yards and gladly accept all that is told to them. But Christ told us ALL to SEEK Him. Not to let others do it for us. What if error is being taught? He won't accept excuses of 'Oh Lord i was deceived' He will say, why didn't you test it? Why are you naked (of knowledge) Was it not important enough to give your full attention to? That shows a lack of true want to know Him. Remember the greatest commandment. To love our God with all our heart mind and soul. The GREATEST COMMAND. If we don't have time to diligently search then He is put into second place behind our worldly cares and that commandment is broken. He deserves first place. He won't accept second and rejects those who practise that second placing. Why? It reflects whats truly important to them thats why. He likens His knowledge to Jewels. If we liken His written Word to a map to find those jewels, i doubt people would be leaving it in anothers hand to reveal, they would be scrutinising every inch of that map guardedly. God deserves the same diligence from everybody, the same attention. But it is not so. So if we take that into consideration, mayhaps the seating wouldn't be a problem. Im not being harsh, it is just the way it is. That is why the truth is bitter in our belly. Many we love dearly just don't care for Him so much. And when i said they are rejected, they still have hope, it's just that as Christ says, the Word will judge them who are 'outside', all second placers, a harsher judgement to face with grace lacking. In other words they face the second resurrection judgement.
If you have no second thoughts about what you have said to me, if you are satisfied with the impression I have of you, then peace be to you. I am not satisfied with what you think of me, not because it changes my relationship with God, but because I would have desired for our communication to be more useful to you.
All communications are useful. I am finding differnt angles of debating on this site i don't encounter often enough through peoples lack of caring towards these subjects/ God. I have no problem talking to anyone..even age of knowledge , lol, though i doubt he'd care to talk with me. Im just guessing of course. I could be wrong. I am not going to brush any with different views aside. That would be proud. I will gladly talk with you or anyone. I take exception to belittleing is all, and will fire up as certain prophets and apostles were known to do, its called passion. My approach could have been better. Definately.
You have sampled only a few. There are countless millions of undershepherds who have given up more that you can imagine to serve the Great Shepherd.
I don't brush everyone with the same brush. Back to the whole 'which church is His' thorn that pricks us. Many have good intentions, of that im sure, so did the prophets of Israel that preached peace. God destroyed them. I'd hate for these undershepherds to share that same fate. As i mentioned before, good intentions and truth are two seperate vessels in God's eyes. Two seperate meanings that reveal our heart of hearts that only God can see. That is the bitterness in our belly. Painful truth. There are no grey areas with God. We all know what happens to 'lukewarmers', they are identified by their doctrines. Error is the revealer. They are passionate too. But their hearts won't submit fully, so rebellion clouds their understanding as it did mine for most of my life. Thats why i don't judge them, i hope to warn them. Yet warnings can appear as judgements. How does one navigate that minefield when the most destructive mines are the ones buried deepest? Needing more direct extraction methods? I am no where near perfect, my debating by text slowly improving. All gestures, tones etc are lacking in this method. Words can bite deeper than intended. Maybe Age need consider that as i am discovering also. Gentle as doves, sly as serpents. We all could improve on that command. All of us. So i have not discarded you in my heart Chars. We got heated is all.
