He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

turbosixx · Nov 30, 2023

I agree with what you're saying to some extent. I wouldn't go as far and say those who understand are converted. I feel that is reading more into it than is there.

I suggest there are those who do understand and do believe but refuse to follow Jesus for whatever reason. Like we see here:
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.”
41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.
God is telling us these men are believers. I've had people tell me these men were saved because they believed. If salvation comes at the moment of belief, then according to that teaching, these men are saved. I can't accept that because applying that logic to these men contradicts Jesus saying He will deny those who deny Him. Being added to Christ requires more than just believing.

Cameron143 · Nov 30, 2023

turbosixx said:

It is the moment faith is produced in us. And since we are saved through faith, it must be the moment of salvation.

Cameron143 · Nov 30, 2023

turbosixx said:

No it doesn't. Here is the answer so you will see it doesn't contradict anything...Hebrews 4:2...for unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Everyone hears physically. Faith includes spiritual hearing with accompanying understanding. It also has an accompanying work in the heart. The group you wrote of had neither. They were not converted. More than believing is correct. An inward and supernatural work of God is necessary; not an outward work of man.

turbosixx · Nov 30, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Using the passage you mentioned. Those verses are in the middle of the thought. If we back up and continue past, we get a better understanding of what "not being mixed with faith" means.

The writer is warning them to not fall away from God. He even includes himself.
3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
You can't fall from a position you haven't reached. You mention the heart, we see from this passage that a good heart can be hardened, by sin.

Then he uses those who left Egypt as an example.
3:15
As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
I suggest believing is like breathing. You can't do it once and you're good. To obey is to believe and to disobey is unbelief.

4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
This verse makes no sense in light of OSAS. OSAS doesn't need to strive to enter that rest, they have already obtained. They cannot fall away because once saved always saved.

Cameron143 · Nov 30, 2023

turbosixx said:

Using the passage you mentioned. Those verses are in the middle of the thought. If we back up and continue past, we get a better understanding of what "not being mixed with faith" means.

The writer is warning them to not fall away from God. He even includes himself.
3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
You can't fall from a position you haven't reached. You mention the heart, we see from this passage that a good heart can be hardened, by sin.

Then he uses those who left Egypt as an example.
3:15
As it is said,
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”
16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
I suggest believing is like breathing. You can't do it once and you're good. To obey is to believe and to disobey is unbelief.

4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
This verse makes no sense in light of OSAS. OSAS doesn't need to strive to enter that rest, they have already obtained. They cannot fall away because once saved always saved.

He clearly says the ones that fall away have unbelieving hearts. I don't you will accept anything that refutes what you already believe, even as it is articulated to you through scripture. I appreciate your time and responses. Grace and peace.

JimmyTheLock · Nov 30, 2023

wattie said:

OK, so we can just pick and choose which bible verses we think are tue and threw the rest that we don't like in the trash.

Thanks for clarifying that. It was so helpful!

turbosixx said:

Yep, a license to sin in deed!

Everlasting-Grace said:

So... you believe doing sin every once in a while is OK and long as we don't "LIVE" in sin like doing it all the time right?

Here's a few passages the OSAS peoples either ignore, explain away, or claim the devil put in to the Bible when Jesus wasn't looking!

1 John 3:6
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 1:6
if we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1 John 2:1
I write these things unto you, that ye sin not

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Everlasting-Grace said:

I already repented... from following the false doctrines of the OSAS peoples who got in to error by being cherry pickers who reject the whole counsel of God...

Everlasting-Grace said:

... and as usual the adherents of the false OSAS doctrines fail to understand that biblical, saving faith brings forth ACTION as in acting on our faith, not just remaining the same and claiming to have faith which is what the false teachers teach.

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

REAL Christians have been empower with the Holy Ghost to stop living in sin THRU CHRIST!

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

The real terror is the Lord not allowing some in to Heaven since Jesus did say "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER" (Matthew 7:21).

The Lord expects His people to DO some stuff after getting born again... in fact, getting born again requires some good work on our part which of course the Lord empowers us to do... but we have to make the decision to either submit to Him or not to submit to him.

Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

If it were by faith alone and no action is required on our part... then Jesus would not have said “let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me” in Luke 9:23.

Only living faith saves, since faith without works is dead... faith alone is not saving faith because there's no good fruit being produced by that faith because it is dead as in the person is not acting like their faith is true and real. Folks that believe this are deceived according to James 1:22 which tells us to “doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves”.

God does not accept dead faith as that faith is no better than the devil’s faith! (James 2:19)

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Philippians 4:13 tells us "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me" so this agrees with John 15 that the Lord is the One bearing good fruit thru us IF we are co laborers with the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us (Romans 8:14) and IF we allow the Holy Spirit to live in us (Romans 8:9)

Matthew 7:18,19
A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Reckon Jesus didn't get the memo from the so called reformers that salvation is by faith only??? (see James 2:14-26)

The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Apparently one is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man.

Sounds like either Jesus is wrong or the so called reformers are wrong since they teach an partial truth and leave the part out about works leaving the door open to sinful living (license to sin).

Martin Luther was a known drunk so I can see how he would want to leave the part about works out so he could continue drinking his beloved booze which is living in sin! (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-13)

Quite the quandary here... who shall we say is in error the Lord or the reformers??? That tis the question!

JimmyTheLock · Nov 30, 2023

Cameron143 said:

But... they did in fact believe initially. Then fell away later, showing that OSAS is not true.

In Jesus's classic teaching on sowing and reaping (Mark 4:13-20).... Jesus says that ALL of them received the Word meaning they ALL believed.

Then Jesus tells us of the 5 things the devil uses to choke God's Word from people's heart if they allow these things to enter in... these 5 things are persecution, afflictions, cares of this world, lusts of other things, and deceitfulness of riches.

It's our responsibility to not allow these things to enter in and choke God's Word out of us causing us to become
unfruitful.

2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Ephesians 6:10,11
Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Cameron143 · Nov 30, 2023

JimmyTheLock said:

Hebrews 4:2...for unto us the gospel was preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them,not being mixed with faith in those that heard it...
They may have believed in their head but it didn't produce faith in them. So, never saved.

Now this wouldn't prevent them from becoming part of the visible church and conforming outwardly. This just makes them like the Pharisees who had a form of godliness, but denied the power thereof. As Jesus said, outwardly they are whited sepulchers, yet inwardly are full of dead men's bones.

oyster67 · Dec 1, 2023

turbosixx said:

Acts 11:16
“Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.”

turbosixx · Dec 1, 2023

oyster67 said:

That verse is talking about Cornelius's conversion. The only other time "baptized with the HS" happened was on the day of Pentecost. Two special situations. The beginning of the church and convincing the Jews, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the Gentiles were to be included as well. Both times it was directly from God and evident by speaking in tongues.

The bible never tells us "baptized by" or "baptism of" the HS because it doesn't happen.

TheLearner · Dec 1, 2023

interesting

rogerg · Dec 2, 2023

TheLearner said:

No, that is incorrect.

[1Co 12:13 KJV] 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Given as there is only one true salvation for all, there is then of necessity only one true baptism for all.

mailmandan · Dec 2, 2023

turbosixx said:

Hebrews 3:8-10 says, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it.

Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

*Jude 1:5 - Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. NOT later destroyed those who stopped believing, but DID NOT BELIEVE.

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, in which we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are a partaker of Christ" (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end." Holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in Christ and the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born-again Hebrews who have partaken in Christ, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Now what about those faltering Hebrews who depart from God, yet begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty? But then later? Once again, holding fast is proof of genuine conversion.

To believe is to have faith and obedience which "follows" is works and is a manifestation of belief/faith. For those who fell away, their disobedience was a manifestation of their unbelief. OSAS still stands.

mailmandan · Dec 2, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Exactly! In Hebrews 4:1-2, we read - For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in THOSE who heard it.

For WE who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were genuine believers. *Notice that verses 2-3 makes a distinction between US who have BELIEVED and do enter that rest and THEM who heard the word but did not mix faith with what they heard and will not enter that rest because of UNBELIEF.

rogerg · Dec 2, 2023

mailmandan said:

Just out of curiosity, is it possible for someone who is in the possession of true faith not have it mix with the gospel? Isn't the mixing of the two solely by the power of faith and not by the person? Were it otherwise, would faith still be faith?

Nehemiah6 · Dec 2, 2023

rogerg said:

No. That is not possible. However, according to you "true faith" is a gift of God given only selectively to "the elect" (according to Calvinism). But according to the Bible it is the Gospel which generates saving faith as fully described in Romans 10. And God does not selectively save some and ignores others.

Once again your false theology is coming through. It is the POWER OF THE GOSPEL, not the power of faith, which is exercised by the individual. Paul said this and it is God's truth: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Rom 1:16). But you do not believe this at all. You insist that God gives saving faith to the so-called "elect".

So what is saving faith? While an unsaved person hears/reads the Gospel, THE HOLY SPIRIT not only convinces him/her that the Gospel is absolutely true, but the Holy Spirit also convicts that person that he/she is a sinner who needs to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. The proper presentation of the Gospel must include the fact that God COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

rogerg · Dec 2, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

No, that is not what Romans 10 says - you didn't read it closely enough -and God does save only those whom He has chosen to salvation.

Christ's faith is reckoned to those whom He has chosen to salvation, by which, they come to a belief in Jesus Christ - true belief is not of them but of God:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[1Co 2:5 KJV] 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Nehemiah6 said:

It is by the power of Christ's faith, not man's faith, that someone is saved. Man's self-produced belief cannot save himself because at its center, it rests in his own actions, not in Christ's. One must first become saved in order to be able to comprehend that and the gospel. To place trust in oneself is not to trust in the Saviour, Jesus Christ, which means that those who do not trust in Christ, remain under law, and therefore, under condemnation, not grace. However, no one can truly trust in Christ until and unless it is given to them as God's gift.

[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

rogerg · Dec 2, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

No, the Gospel is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which Gospel, is that Jesus Christ is the Saviour, not man, and that He is the one who gives faith as a gift to those whom He has chosen.

turbosixx · Dec 4, 2023

Thanks for your comments. I have some thoughts but I don't have time to put them in order so that they make sense. However, this question basically is the root of the matter.

mailmandan said:

What did they fall away from?

Nehemiah6 · Dec 4, 2023

rogerg said:

Well since God desires the salvation of ALL MANKIND, He would give the gift of faith to all, not just "the ones He has chosen".

So in reality you DO NOT believe God and Christ, who said this: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17). He also repeated this in other passages.

And it is clearly stated in 1 Timothy 2:3-6: For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

"All men" means all mankind. And "a ransom for all" reinforces that. So clearly you are promoting a FALSE GOSPEL.

He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

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