Healing in the Atonement?

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Dec 4, 2017
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Agree with you Lance., This is what I believe as well from Scripture. I was saved in 1981-2 born again., sealed in the Holy Spirit and forgiven all my sins. I didn't know at the time of conversion ALL the many truths in one sitting... but was learning as time progressed and we went to church., read our Bible's and was regularly under the preaching and teaching of a good Bible believing church and preacher and teachers and the rest of the body of Christ. A new Christian just can't seem to get enough of the Word of God and the people of God at church. I found out it's called the sincere milk of the Word and new believers need it to grow.

Went from being an Irish Catholic born and raised always wondering if God was going to accept me. To a loved forgiven child of God! But it wasn't until many years later I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and that was over a year ago. I had never heard of such a thing and when I did hear of it I didn't believe in the legitimacy of it.

But knew from such a failed Christian life that I was leading for so many years that I was desperate for Him to empower me to walk in the spirit. I tried and failed most of my life as a born again Christian woman., wife and mother. I was still most of my life refusing to allow my mind to be renewed in all areas including how I was first taught to view God the Father., God the Son Jesus and God the Holy Spirit. I lived by the adage "God helps those who help themselves"

I've since learned the Holy Spirit will not force us to allow Him to teach us the new and living way. I had to be and am daily learning to be a willing participant in the maturing process. Here is an article about being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It also describes what happened to me.

Whoever reads this if you got this far., you are free to agree or disagree. And I'm free to accept the truth as it's been shown to me in the Bible. As are you.



HOLY SPIRIT

There are few things more controversial in the body of Christ than the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the accompanying gifts.
Much of modern-day Christianity sees the born-again experience as all there is to salvation. Many Christians oppose the belief that there is a separate experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit, and they especially oppose the validity of the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today’s believers.


That type of belief puts them in conflict with the book of Acts and the very teaching of Jesus. Those who experience the power of the Holy Spirit today are labeled as fanatics or heretics. But what does the Bible have to say? What did Jesus say about this?
On the night before Jesus’ crucifixion, He made one of the most astounding statements of His whole ministry. John 16:7 records these words:

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”
Grasp what Jesus is saying! Jesus said it is more beneficial for us to have the ministry of the Holy Spirit than it was to have Jesus present with us in His physical body!

Most Christians are totally shocked by this. They would give anything to have Jesus present in His physical body. How could anything be better than to physically see, hear, and touch Him?

Jesus knew His disciples would be shocked by His statement, so He prefaced it with the words, “I tell you the truth.” As hard as it may be to understand, the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer is better than the earthly ministry of Jesus.
This is not to take anything away from His ministry on this earth. Without Jesus coming to the earth and accomplishing what He did, there could be no ministry of the Holy Spirit. The whole plan of God hinges on the redemptive work of Christ.


But, once His work was done, it was actually to our advantage to have Jesus return to His Father and send the Holy Spirit to take His place. Therefore, we shouldn’t lessen the preeminence of Jesus, but we should increase the importance of the Holy Spirit’s ministry.

Most Christians don’t realize how involved the Holy Spirit is in everything that the Lord does. They do not ascribe nearly enough importance to the Holy Spirit and what He is doing in the earth today. In Genesis 1:1-2, the Bible says,
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

In the beginning, God created all the elements needed for His creation. Then, everything else was formed from what had already been created. All the essential ingredients were in place. But nothing happened without the Spirit of God.
Notice specifically that the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) moved upon the face of the waters. The English word moved was translated from the Hebrew word “rachaph.” It literally means “to brood.” This is describing the manner of a hen sitting on her eggs to hatch them.

The Holy Spirit was brooding over the creation of God just waiting to bring forth whatever God the Father said. When the Lord said “Let there be light” (Gen. 1:3), then the power of the Holy Spirit brought that light into being. Likewise, with everything the Lord created and made, it was the power of the Holy Spirit that brought it all into existence.

God the Father conceived it. Jesus spoke it. And the Holy Spirit was the power that performed it. Everything God did in His creation was accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit. When God the Father was ready to bring Jesus into the earth, He took the spoken Word (Jesus), the Holy Spirit brooded over Mary (a virgin), and she conceived Jesus’ physical body.


This perfectly illustrates the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are one. In fact, they are so much one that they can’t operate independent of each other. They are a team. Jesus didn’t do any miracles or start His public ministry until after He had been anointed with the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus couldn’t, or wouldn’t, operate independently of the Holy Spirit, neither should we. No one can have an effective life or ministry without the power of God’s Holy Spirit working in him or her. This fact can’t be argued by anyone who truly believes the Bible is God’s Word. The Scriptures are replete with proof that it is “not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the LORD of hosts” (Zech. 4:6).


So, why is there so much debate over this issue? The sad truth is that denial of the ministry and power of the Holy Spirit is a convenient theology. Believing that miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit don’t operate today excuses powerless living. If it’s true that the Holy Spirit is still willing to move as in biblical times (and it is true), then there is no excuse for living lives so far removed from the victory portrayed in God’s Word.







The number one reason people resist the ministry of the Holy Spirit is because it exposes the lack of power in their lives. And once exposed, it demands a change. In an attempt to avoid responsibility for change, they change the Scriptures instead of themselves. Of course, it’s not that blatant, but there is a predisposition against the ministry of the Holy Spirit, so the Scripture is twisted to support their views.


It’s now politically correct to say that alcoholics are not responsible for their actions, depression is a chemical imbalance, and homosexuality is genetic. We’ve even had lawsuits where overweight people sue fast-food chains for their obesity. No one wants to admit that their lives are the result of their choices and actions. It’s appealing to think that someone else is at fault for their messed up lives. Sadly, the lack of personal responsibility in our society has crept into the attitudes of the church.


But, the ultimate attempt to avoid responsibility is when we place the blame on God. This goes all the way back to Adam when he said, “It’s that woman that YOU gave me” (Gen. 3). He passed the “buck” to the woman and then ultimately blamed God. But God’s judgment shows that He held Adam responsible for his own actions.


Another group of Christians willingly accept a limited ministry of the Holy Spirit as their comforter and consoler, but they still deny His miraculous power. That’s convenient, the benefits without the responsibility. These are usually the ones who also believe there isn’t a second experience with the Holy Spirit beyond being born again. They may be sincere in their beliefs, but they are sincerely wrong.


There are many clear examples in Scripture where a miraculous encounter with the Holy Spirit enabled believers to live supernatural lives. Jesus taught about two separate experiences in the believer’s life.

In John 20:28, Thomas confessed Jesus as his Lord and God. That made him “saved” according to Romans 10:9-10. Yet, the Lord told Thomas and all the disciples to tarry in Jerusalem until they received the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4). The reason Jesus told them to wait on the baptism of the Holy Spirit was because they didn’t have it yet. Look what happened to the disciples once they received that power. They were changed men.

Jesus said it this way in Acts 1:8,
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

After the Day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus’ disciples, they were powerful. They faced persecution and death fearlessly. What made the difference? By Jesus’ own words, it was the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 8, Philip preached to the Samaritans, and the whole city believed on Jesus and was baptized in water. They were saved. But Acts 8:15-16 says,
“Who, when they [the apostles] were come down, prayed for them [the Samaritans], that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus)” (brackets mine).

This is a very clear example of people being born again but still needing to receive the Holy Spirit. This can also be witnessed in Acts 19. Paul found disciples who were not baptized in the Holy Spirit. He prayed for them, and they spoke with tongues.
Spirit filled, but no tongues!
There are other believers who acknowledge a second experience with the Holy Spirit which releases power, but they refuse the part of speaking in tongues, or at least say it’s not for everyone. But the baptism of the Holy Spirit is like a pair of tennis shoes: It always comes with tongues.
I guess it’s possible to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues, but why wouldn’t you want to? If you’re afraid, don’t be! There’s no reason to fear; you’re in full control. I’m not speaking in tongues as I write this, because it’s up to me to decide when I speak in tongues. It’s the same for you. You’ll control when you speak in tongues.

Maybe there’s something else that is holding you back. I know from experience that a person whose understanding of this gift isn’t right can stifle it. I did. In my case, a denomination had instilled such fear in me that I was afraid I would get something from the devil. It wasn’t until later that I learned the Lord wouldn’t let that happen (Luke 11:13).

Andrew Wommack on the Holy Spirit
As he was starting on his way, a man ran up, kneeled down in front of him and asked, “Good rabbi, what should I do to obtain eternal life?”
Yeshua said to him,
“Why are you calling me good? No one is good except God!

Blessed is the name of the Lord
Amen
40s over 16s
If the man only new what the Lord was asking the man!
a house of prayer with a roof that no storm can reach.
Blessings Always




Give thanks to Adonai; for he is good,
for his grace continues forever.
2 Let those redeemed by Adonai say it,
those he redeemed from the power of the foe.
3 He gathered them from the lands,
from the east
and from the west,
from the north
and from the sea.


4 They wandered in the desert, on paths through the wastes,
without finding any inhabited city.
5 They were hungry and thirsty,
their life was ebbing away.


6 In their trouble they cried to Adonai,
and he rescued them from their distress.
7 He led them by a direct path
to a city where they could live.


8 Let them give thanks to Adonai for his grace,
for his wonders bestowed on humanity!
9 For he has satisfied the hungry,
filled the starving with good.


10 Some lived in darkness, in death-dark gloom,
bound in misery and iron chains,
11 because they defied God’s word,
scorned the counsel of the Most High.
12 So he humbled their hearts by hard labor;
when they stumbled, no one came to their aid.


13 In their trouble they cried to Adonai,
and he rescued them from their distress.
14 He led them from darkness, from death-dark gloom,
shattering their chains.


15 Let them give thanks to Adonai for his grace,
for his wonders bestowed on humanity!
16 For he shattered bronze doors
and cut through iron bars.


17 There were foolish people who suffered affliction
because of their crimes and sins;
18 they couldn’t stand to eat anything;
they were near the gates of death.


19 In their trouble they cried to Adonai,
and he rescued them from their distress;
20 he sent his word and healed them,
he delivered them from destruction.


21 Let them give thanks to Adonai for his grace,
for his wonders bestowed on humanity!
22 Let them offer sacrifices of thanksgiving
and proclaim his great deeds with songs of joy.


23 Those who go down to the sea in ships,
plying their trade on the great ocean,
24 saw the works of Adonai,
his wonders in the deep.


25 For at his word the storm-wind arose,
lifting up towering waves.
26 The sailors were raised up to the sky,
then plunged into the depths.
At the danger, their courage failed them,
27 they reeled and staggered like drunk men,
and all their skill was swallowed up.


28 In their trouble they cried to Adonai,
and he rescued them from their distress.
29 He silenced the storm and stilled its waves,
30 and they rejoiced as the sea grew calm.
Then he brought them safely
to their desired port.
31 Let them give thanks to Adonai for his grace,
for his wonders bestowed on humanity!
32 Let them extol him in the assembly of the people
and praise him in the leaders’ council.


33 He turns rivers into desert,
flowing springs into thirsty ground,
34 productive land into salt flats,
because the people living there are so wicked.


35 But he also turns desert into pools of water,
dry land into flowing springs;
36 there he gives the hungry a home,
and they build a city to live in;
37 there they sow fields and plant vineyards,
which yield an abundant harvest.


38 He blesses them, their numbers grow,
and he doesn’t let their livestock decrease.
39 When their numbers fall, and they grow weak,
because of oppression, disaster and sorrow,
40 he pours contempt on princes
and leaves them to wander in trackless wastes.


41 But the needy he raises up from their distress
and increases their families like sheep.
42 When the upright see this, they rejoice;
while the wicked are reduced to silence.
43 Let whoever is wise observe these things
and consider Adonai’s loving deeds.

 
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joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
You seek healing by the will of God? I understand this perspective is one of contentment, whether rich or poor. My issue with this is we have in scripture the woman who went to Jesus, believed, and received her healing by touching His garment. I must say, this was obviously by her own accord. She sought Him, believed that if she could only touch His garment she would be healed, and because she believed this her faith made her well (said Jesus).

This shows initiative, it shows faith in action. She didn't ask Jesus, "Lord, may I touch your garment that I may be made whole? What is your will?" She believed in His testimony no doubt, she heard of Him healing the sick as the news spread abroad. She wanted her healing and she went for it.

How is it any different today for a person to seek Jesus, who is risen and alive, and touch His garment, so to speak, and be healed? His testimony is that He healed all, again and again. Especially for those that believed. Cannot someone seek God and be healed on that reason alone? Hasn't His will in regard to healing always been affirmative? He has revealed His will, Jesus Christ is perfect theology. He healed all.

Based upon this, we can seek God for healing. We know His will through Jesus Christ. We know of His testimony. He healed all. So His will is not in question.


Amen Ben. This is what I also believe. We have confidence in the promises because of Jesus. What He says is true. But I also see how many here do not believe healing IS a promise in the atonement so they do not pray for it as such. How can they? I was raised in that theology and learned NOT to pray for healing as if it were mine bought and paid for.

I was always taught that it is God's will to cause tribulation in my life so I can learn. To make me sick and even kill me for His glory. So that people could see me suffering without complaint as I would learn to endure and say instead... thank You God for this pain for it will teach me something I need... So I would not pray consistently or in faith for the sickness to go since I was taught it was brought or allowed by God for my good and the good of all those around me. I could only pray that the pain would be less and that He would eventually have mercy on me to get through it without complaining in front of people bringing Him and myself shame.

But PRAISE THE LORD NOW I know that sickness...pain...confusion., and all suffering is not coming from God Who is my loving Abba Father. It was HIM who sent Jesus to set us FREE from those BAD and evil things that sin brought in., and Jesus gave us and paid completely for the victory. We are called as new creations in Christ to hold the ground BY FAITH. HOLD THE GROUND ALREADY WON FOR US BY FAITH. :) That is our role as co laborers with Him. Even when we are suffering... we continue to look to Jesus Who IS the Author and finisher of our faith. And the HolySpirit will comfort...guide... teach and lead us in the battle to hold the ground Jesus paid for us to have. We are NOT alone in this process.

We are taught how to walk in the spirit so we don't fulfill the lusts of our flesh which means we won't trust in our flesh anymore. We won't believe our flesh...

The trials and tribulations against us that Jesus warned us about come from 3 places... 1. world... 2. flesh... 3. devil... Now I know to ALWAYS look to Jesus for the healing He paid for me to have. Because as you said in your post Ben... JESUS IS PERFECT THEOLOGY.

Jesus came to set the captives free... to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.. Isaiah 61:1-2a (He closed the book in Luke 4:18-19) Isaiah 53:4-5 says,
“Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.”



When we want to see God.... we MUST look to JESUS. Jesus is perfect theology. Amen!
 
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joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
When I started this thread, I posted that I knew there were two doctrines concerning the atonement. I didn't know why until I researched. It seems to come mostly through Pentecostal Christians but not solely.

Why? Because of the definition of one with God. It depends on what we see in this word. Also defining ressurection life.

I looked at Pauls words in the Greek concerning the latter. It's to stand up again from death. Even in this will come a division of understanding.

I also said I see atonement and communion as the one experience of receiving all that we need from the Lord. That we have returned to the garden and can receive the benefits of complete provision now, and then later...Paradise.

Thats my faith based asked on what I see from study. Not any mans opinions.

Faith is in the blood of Jesus. Blood is the life of men. His blood is heavenly, from another place than this earthly realm. And if discerned...will bring life to our body. Eternal, pure without disease, and powerful to set us free from the adamic human nature we are born into.

So the question to us all, is what do we see.


I agree sister., and just will add ; we have it much better than Adam and Eve did. We are in the new covenant and Jesus has paid for all our sins for all eternity. We walk in newness of life and we are NEW creations IN Christ. New creations... Jesus was the first of many brethren... That's us.
We have every opportunity for victory and every reason for JOY and peace that passes all human reason. We have everything to be thankful for. We are not alone or left without comfort and security. AMEN all because of Jesus.
 
Dec 4, 2017
906
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The altar and the sabbath

Therefore, my dear friends, run from idolatry(greed)! 15 I speak to you as sensible people; judge for yourselves what I am saying. 16 The “cup of blessing” over which we make the b’rakhah — isn’t it a sharing in the bloody(blood of the lamb at the door) sacrificial death of the Messiah? The bread we break, isn’t it a sharing in the body of the Messiah? 17 Because there is one loaf of bread, we who are many constitute one body, since we all partake of the one loaf of bread. 18 Look at physical Isra’el: don’t those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar?


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+5
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
[video=youtube;wP3FibRWhVo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP3FibRWhVo&sns=em[/video]
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,650
897
113
61
Agree with you Lance., This is what I believe as well from Scripture. I was saved in 1981-2 born again., sealed in the Holy Spirit and forgiven all my sins. I didn't know at the time of conversion ALL the many truths in one sitting... but was learning as time progressed and we went to church., read our Bible's and was regularly under the preaching and teaching of a good Bible believing church and preacher and teachers and the rest of the body of Christ. A new Christian just can't seem to get enough of the Word of God and the people of God at church. I found out it's called the sincere milk of the Word and new believers need it to grow.

Went from being an Irish Catholic born and raised always wondering if God was going to accept me. To a loved forgiven child of God! But it wasn't until many years later I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and that was over a year ago. I had never heard of such a thing and when I did hear of it I didn't believe in the legitimacy of it.

But knew from such a failed Christian life that I was leading for so many years that I was desperate for Him to empower me to walk in the spirit. I tried and failed most of my life as a born again Christian woman., wife and mother. I was still most of my life refusing to allow my mind to be renewed in all areas including how I was first taught to view God the Father., God the Son Jesus and God the Holy Spirit. I lived by the adage "God helps those who help themselves"

I've since learned the Holy Spirit will not force us to allow Him to teach us the new and living way. I had to be and am daily learning to be a willing participant in the maturing process. Here is an article about being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It also describes what happened to me.

Whoever reads this if you got this far., you are free to agree or disagree. And I'm free to accept the truth as it's been shown to me in the Bible. As are you.



HOLY SPIRIT

There are few things more controversial in the body of Christ than the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the accompanying gifts.
Much of modern-day Christianity sees the born-again experience as all there is to salvation. Many Christians oppose the belief that there is a separate experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit, and they especially oppose the validity of the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today’s believers.


That type of belief puts them in conflict with the book of Acts and the very teaching of Jesus. Those who experience the power of the Holy Spirit today are labeled as fanatics or heretics. But what does the Bible have to say? What did Jesus say about this?
On the night before Jesus’ crucifixion, He made one of the most astounding statements of His whole ministry. John 16:7 records these words:

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”
Grasp what Jesus is saying! Jesus said it is more beneficial for us to have the ministry of the Holy Spirit than it was to have Jesus present with us in His physical body!

Most Christians are totally shocked by this. They would give anything to have Jesus present in His physical body. How could anything be better than to physically see, hear, and touch Him?

Jesus knew His disciples would be shocked by His statement, so He prefaced it with the words, “I tell you the truth.” As hard as it may be to understand, the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer is better than the earthly ministry of Jesus.
This is not to take anything away from His ministry on this earth. Without Jesus coming to the earth and accomplishing what He did, there could be no ministry of the Holy Spirit. The whole plan of God hinges on the redemptive work of Christ.


But, once His work was done, it was actually to our advantage to have Jesus return to His Father and send the Holy Spirit to take His place. Therefore, we shouldn’t lessen the preeminence of Jesus, but we should increase the importance of the Holy Spirit’s ministry.

Most Christians don’t realize how involved the Holy Spirit is in everything that the Lord does. They do not ascribe nearly enough importance to the Holy Spirit and what He is doing in the earth today. In Genesis 1:1-2, the Bible says,
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

In the beginning, God created all the elements needed for His creation. Then, everything else was formed from what had already been created. All the essential ingredients were in place. But nothing happened without the Spirit of God.
Notice specifically that the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) moved upon the face of the waters. The English word moved was translated from the Hebrew word “rachaph.” It literally means “to brood.” This is describing the manner of a hen sitting on her eggs to hatch them.

The Holy Spirit was brooding over the creation of God just waiting to bring forth whatever God the Father said. When the Lord said “Let there be light” (Gen. 1:3), then the power of the Holy Spirit brought that light into being. Likewise, with everything the Lord created and made, it was the power of the Holy Spirit that brought it all into existence.

God the Father conceived it. Jesus spoke it. And the Holy Spirit was the power that performed it. Everything God did in His creation was accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit. When God the Father was ready to bring Jesus into the earth, He took the spoken Word (Jesus), the Holy Spirit brooded over Mary (a virgin), and she conceived Jesus’ physical body.


This perfectly illustrates the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are one. In fact, they are so much one that they can’t operate independent of each other. They are a team. Jesus didn’t do any miracles or start His public ministry until after He had been anointed with the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus couldn’t, or wouldn’t, operate independently of the Holy Spirit, neither should we. No one can have an effective life or ministry without the power of God’s Holy Spirit working in him or her. This fact can’t be argued by anyone who truly believes the Bible is God’s Word. The Scriptures are replete with proof that it is “not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the LORD of hosts” (Zech. 4:6).


So, why is there so much debate over this issue? The sad truth is that denial of the ministry and power of the Holy Spirit is a convenient theology. Believing that miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit don’t operate today excuses powerless living. If it’s true that the Holy Spirit is still willing to move as in biblical times (and it is true), then there is no excuse for living lives so far removed from the victory portrayed in God’s Word.







The number one reason people resist the ministry of the Holy Spirit is because it exposes the lack of power in their lives. And once exposed, it demands a change. In an attempt to avoid responsibility for change, they change the Scriptures instead of themselves. Of course, it’s not that blatant, but there is a predisposition against the ministry of the Holy Spirit, so the Scripture is twisted to support their views.


It’s now politically correct to say that alcoholics are not responsible for their actions, depression is a chemical imbalance, and homosexuality is genetic. We’ve even had lawsuits where overweight people sue fast-food chains for their obesity. No one wants to admit that their lives are the result of their choices and actions. It’s appealing to think that someone else is at fault for their messed up lives. Sadly, the lack of personal responsibility in our society has crept into the attitudes of the church.


But, the ultimate attempt to avoid responsibility is when we place the blame on God. This goes all the way back to Adam when he said, “It’s that woman that YOU gave me” (Gen. 3). He passed the “buck” to the woman and then ultimately blamed God. But God’s judgment shows that He held Adam responsible for his own actions.


Another group of Christians willingly accept a limited ministry of the Holy Spirit as their comforter and consoler, but they still deny His miraculous power. That’s convenient, the benefits without the responsibility. These are usually the ones who also believe there isn’t a second experience with the Holy Spirit beyond being born again. They may be sincere in their beliefs, but they are sincerely wrong.


There are many clear examples in Scripture where a miraculous encounter with the Holy Spirit enabled believers to live supernatural lives. Jesus taught about two separate experiences in the believer’s life.

In John 20:28, Thomas confessed Jesus as his Lord and God. That made him “saved” according to Romans 10:9-10. Yet, the Lord told Thomas and all the disciples to tarry in Jerusalem until they received the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4). The reason Jesus told them to wait on the baptism of the Holy Spirit was because they didn’t have it yet. Look what happened to the disciples once they received that power. They were changed men.

Jesus said it this way in Acts 1:8,
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

After the Day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus’ disciples, they were powerful. They faced persecution and death fearlessly. What made the difference? By Jesus’ own words, it was the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 8, Philip preached to the Samaritans, and the whole city believed on Jesus and was baptized in water. They were saved. But Acts 8:15-16 says,
“Who, when they [the apostles] were come down, prayed for them [the Samaritans], that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus)” (brackets mine).

This is a very clear example of people being born again but still needing to receive the Holy Spirit. This can also be witnessed in Acts 19. Paul found disciples who were not baptized in the Holy Spirit. He prayed for them, and they spoke with tongues.
Spirit filled, but no tongues!
There are other believers who acknowledge a second experience with the Holy Spirit which releases power, but they refuse the part of speaking in tongues, or at least say it’s not for everyone. But the baptism of the Holy Spirit is like a pair of tennis shoes: It always comes with tongues.
I guess it’s possible to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues, but why wouldn’t you want to? If you’re afraid, don’t be! There’s no reason to fear; you’re in full control. I’m not speaking in tongues as I write this, because it’s up to me to decide when I speak in tongues. It’s the same for you. You’ll control when you speak in tongues.

Maybe there’s something else that is holding you back. I know from experience that a person whose understanding of this gift isn’t right can stifle it. I did. In my case, a denomination had instilled such fear in me that I was afraid I would get something from the devil. It wasn’t until later that I learned the Lord wouldn’t let that happen (Luke 11:13).

Andrew Wommack on the Holy Spirit
Has this Andrew Wormack also an answer where this baptism with the Holy Spirit as second expierience and speaking in tongues was before the year 1900. According his explanation before the year 1900 no single christian was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Btw the disciples of John in Acts 19 could not have a second expierience with the Holy Spirit because they had no first one.They told Paul that they have not heared that the Holy Spirit came (19came
And why then we see so less from the empowered pentecostals and charismatics today? If they all are so empowered. Where are they and why the news are not full of there miracles?
If it is true then you would not need to follow those preachers like Hinn, ore Osteen ore what all is there names, because yourself had the power to do what the disciples did. Why then on the healing meetings not all get healing. In the time of acts, we can read that all who came to Jesus ore the disciples get healed. Directly and not slicewise.
Baptism with the Holy Spirit as Wormack defines it I cant find in the bible. Its an man made doctrine used from a false spirit to deceive the believers.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,654
13,061
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7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Hey, 7 and EG,

I have been a long time knowing you are my sister and brother but I've also spent a long time thinking neither of you walked well yet by the Spirit because you seemed so...abrupt and mean to me.

I understand now. I really get it that I was the more immature one and that you were the more mature. I get it. I understand now that contending for the faith is warfare and that polite manners, while good, are not always a sign of maturity but are rather a sign of having a desire to be accepted and approved by men and a sign of being well socialized.

Polite manners don't work with leaven overdose or wolves or Satan.

I didn't understand but I do now and...I'm sorry I thought you both were mean when you were displaying ferocious love for young ones.

A man once said if someone is one or two steps ahead of us spiritually we admire them but if they are more steps ahead than that we will think evil of them at worst or think them deluded at best.

oh gee Stunned....that really touches my heart

funny while I try to season my responses, lately I have just said 'I am ticked off when I am ticked off' and tried to respond better, you come along and state the above

perhaps a little of both then? haha...most likely! :)

I know I have rubbed you the wrong way and I hoped you would see what I was trying to get across... a person just cannot pet a poisonous snake

Polite manners don't work with leaven overdose or wolves or Satan.
well, that is right, they don't. you can ask anyone who knows me...I am straightforward but I won't go behind your back so you know just what you are dealing with, which does not make me always right and does not mean I can't be kinder because of course can

if I have a concern in my heart from God, I believe it to be to help Christians grow in their faith and encourage people. I am probably better at it in person then in the forum

thanks so much for this post! really!
 
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I agree sister., and just will add ; we have it much better than Adam and Eve did. We are in the new covenant and Jesus has paid for all our sins for all eternity. We walk in newness of life and we are NEW creations IN Christ. New creations... Jesus was the first of many brethren... That's us.
We have every opportunity for victory and every reason for JOY and peace that passes all human reason. We have everything to be thankful for. We are not alone or left without comfort and security. AMEN all because of Jesus.
Can you drink the cup that I am about to drink?”
They said to him,
“We can.”
23 He said to them,
“Yes, you will drink my cup. But to sit on my right and on my left is not mine to give, it is for those for whom my Father has prepared it.”

Oil and Wine in a charity of Fire, and whirlwind of Faith from a generous heart that over flows in the washing of the Word

Then this word of Adonai came to him:
“Get up; go to Tzarfat, a village in Tzidon; and live there. I have instructed a widow there to provide for you.”
10 So he set out and went to Tzarfat. On reaching the gate of the city, he saw a widow there gathering sticks.
He called out to her,
“Please bring a little water in a container for me to drink.”
11 As she was going to get it, he called after her,
“Please bring me a piece of bread in your hand.”
12 She answered,
“As Adonai your God lives, I have nothing baked, only a handful of meal in a pot and a little oil in the jug. Here I am, gathering a couple sticks of wood, so that I can go and cook it for myself and my son. After we have eaten that, we will die.”

13
Eliyahu said to her,
“Don’t be afraid. Go; and do what you said; but first, use a little of it to make me a small loaf of bread; and bring it out to me. After that, make food for yourself and your son.
14 For this is what Adonai the God of Isra’el, says:
‘The pot of meal will not get used up, nor will there fail to be oil in the jug, until the day Adonai sends rain down on the land.’”
15 She went and acted according to what Eliyahu had said; and she, he and her household had food to eat for a long time. 16 The pot of meal did not get used up, nor did there fail to be oil in the jug, in fulfillment of the Word of Adonai spoken through Eliyahu.
[h=1]
An oil of gladness
Behold the Lilies of the feild have more to say of Life that the thistles and thorns.

Psalm 45 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
[/h][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]45 (0) For the leader. Set to “Lilies.” By the descendants of Korach. A maskil. A lovesong:[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]2 (1) My heart is stirred by a noble theme;
I address my verses to the king;
My tongue is the pen of an expert scribe.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]3 (2) You are the most handsome of men;
gracious speech flows from your lips.
For God has blessed you forever.
4 (3) Warrior, strap your sword at your thigh;
[gird on] your splendor and majesty.
5 (4) In your majesty, succeed, ride on
in the cause of truth, meekness and righteousness.
May your right hand teach you awesome things.
6 (5) Your arrows are sharp. The people fall under you,
as they penetrate the hearts of the king’s enemies.
7 (6) Your throne, God, will last forever and ever;
you rule your kingdom with a scepter of equity.
8 (7) You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of joy in preference to your companions.
9 (8) Your robes are all fragrant with myrrh, aloes and cassia;
from ivory palaces stringed instruments bring you joy.
10 (9) Daughters of kings are among your favorites;
at your right stands the queen in gold from Ofir.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]11 (10) Listen, daughter! Think, pay attention!
Forget your own people and your father’s house,
12 (11) and the king will desire your beauty;
for he is your lord, so honor him.
13 (12) Then the daughter of Tzor, the richest of peoples,
will court your favor with gifts.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]14 (13) Inside [the palace], the king’s daughter looks splendid,
attired in checker-work embroidered with gold.
15 (14) In brocade, she will be led to the king,
to you, with the virgins in her retinue.
16 (15) They will be led in with gladness and joy,
they will enter the king’s palace.
17 (16) You will have sons to succeed your ancestors;
you will make them princes in all the land.
18 (17) I will make your name known through all generations;
thus the peoples will praise you forever and ever.
[/FONT]
[/FONT]

'I will raise the cup of salvation'
 
Last edited:
Dec 4, 2017
906
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0
Can you drink the cup that I am about to drink?”
They said to him,
“We can.”
23 He said to them,
“Yes, you will drink my cup. But to sit on my right and on my left is not mine to give, it is for those for whom my Father has prepared it.”

Oil and Wine in a charity of Fire, and whirlwind of Faith from a generous heart that over flows in the washing of the Word

Then this word of Adonai came to him:
“Get up; go to Tzarfat, a village in Tzidon; and live there. I have instructed a widow there to provide for you.”
10 So he set out and went to Tzarfat. On reaching the gate of the city, he saw a widow there gathering sticks.
He called out to her,
“Please bring a little water in a container for me to drink.”
11 As she was going to get it, he called after her,
“Please bring me a piece of bread in your hand.”
12 She answered,
“As Adonai your God lives, I have nothing baked, only a handful of meal in a pot and a little oil in the jug. Here I am, gathering a couple sticks of wood, so that I can go and cook it for myself and my son. After we have eaten that, we will die.”

13
Eliyahu said to her,
“Don’t be afraid. Go; and do what you said; but first, use a little of it to make me a small loaf of bread; and bring it out to me. After that, make food for yourself and your son.
14 For this is what Adonai the God of Isra’el, says:
‘The pot of meal will not get used up, nor will there fail to be oil in the jug, until the day Adonai sends rain down on the land.’”
15 She went and acted according to what Eliyahu had said; and she, he and her household had food to eat for a long time. 16 The pot of meal did not get used up, nor did there fail to be oil in the jug, in fulfillment of the Word of Adonai spoken through Eliyahu.

An oil of gladness
Behold the Lilies of the feild have more to say of Life that the thistles and thorns.

Psalm 45 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)


45 (0) For the leader. Set to “Lilies.” By the descendants of Korach. A maskil. A lovesong:

2 (1) My heart is stirred by a noble theme;
I address my verses to the king;
My tongue is the pen of an expert scribe.


3 (2) You are the most handsome of men;
gracious speech flows from your lips.
For God has blessed you forever.
4 (3) Warrior, strap your sword at your thigh;
[gird on] your splendor and majesty.
5 (4) In your majesty, succeed, ride on
in the cause of truth, meekness and righteousness.
May your right hand teach you awesome things.
6 (5) Your arrows are sharp. The people fall under you,
as they penetrate the hearts of the king’s enemies.
7 (6) Your throne, God, will last forever and ever;
you rule your kingdom with a scepter of equity.
8 (7) You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of joy in preference to your companions.
9 (8) Your robes are all fragrant with myrrh, aloes and cassia;
from ivory palaces stringed instruments bring you joy.
10 (9) Daughters of kings are among your favorites;
at your right stands the queen in gold from Ofir.


11 (10) Listen, daughter! Think, pay attention!
Forget your own people and your father’s house,
12 (11) and the king will desire your beauty;
for he is your lord, so honor him.
13 (12) Then the daughter of Tzor, the richest of peoples,
will court your favor with gifts.


14 (13) Inside [the palace], the king’s daughter looks splendid,
attired in checker-work embroidered with gold.
15 (14) In brocade, she will be led to the king,
to you, with the virgins in her retinue.
16 (15) They will be led in with gladness and joy,
they will enter the king’s palace.
17 (16) You will have sons to succeed your ancestors;
you will make them princes in all the land.
18 (17) I will make your name known through all generations;
thus the peoples will praise you forever and ever.


'I will raise the cup of salvation'


פרשת השבוע - Torah Readings for this week
 
Dec 4, 2017
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35
0


I agree sister., and just will add ; we have it much better than Adam and Eve did. We are in the new covenant and Jesus has paid for all our sins for all eternity. We walk in newness of life and we are NEW creations IN Christ. New creations... Jesus was the first of many brethren... That's us.
We have every opportunity for victory and every reason for JOY and peace that passes all human reason. We have everything to be thankful for. We are not alone or left without comfort and security. AMEN all because of Jesus.
have you ever heard of casting bread upon the waters?
 
Dec 4, 2017
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35
0
[FONT=&quot]Your father Abraham [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] and was glad.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]I imagine the man (Moses) sitting there looking from a far off with his heart full of Joy in the Knowledge of What is to come.
Just as i do with an expectation of such, that there is no fear in wanting to meet the Lord were He walks the firmament Cloud of mist that covers the Holy ground before His Feet.
Having seen him walk with such a delicate gentle Ruach of Life.
how could a believer ever deny such a Grace.
There is no other than the Redeemer for me.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Gladness


[/FONT]

 
Dec 4, 2017
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35
0


I agree sister., and just will add ; we have it much better than Adam and Eve did. We are in the new covenant and Jesus has paid for all our sins for all eternity. We walk in newness of life and we are NEW creations IN Christ. New creations... Jesus was the first of many brethren... That's us.
We have every opportunity for victory and every reason for JOY and peace that passes all human reason. We have everything to be thankful for. We are not alone or left without comfort and security. AMEN all because of Jesus.
I know a place to meet, if you are courageous in the Fruits of the Spirit.

Will you trust in the Lord to shut the mouths of the lion of the tribe of ismal?

Yes, or no
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
Hello 777pinacled., I'm sorry I don't understand what your posts mean. Can you explain? Thank you.
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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Neither has anyone else it understood them. Except for stones apparently.
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
Agree with you Lance., This is what I believe as well from Scripture. I was saved in 1981-2 born again., sealed in the Holy Spirit and forgiven all my sins. I didn't know at the time of conversion ALL the many truths in one sitting... but was learning as time progressed and we went to church., read our Bible's and was regularly under the preaching and teaching of a good Bible believing church and preacher and teachers and the rest of the body of Christ. A new Christian just can't seem to get enough of the Word of God and the people of God at church. I found out it's called the sincere milk of the Word and new believers need it to grow.

Went from being an Irish Catholic born and raised always wondering if God was going to accept me. To a loved forgiven child of God! But it wasn't until many years later I was baptized in the Holy Spirit and that was over a year ago. I had never heard of such a thing and when I did hear of it I didn't believe in the legitimacy of it.

But knew from such a failed Christian life that I was leading for so many years that I was desperate for Him to empower me to walk in the spirit. I tried and failed most of my life as a born again Christian woman., wife and mother. I was still most of my life refusing to allow my mind to be renewed in all areas including how I was first taught to view God the Father., God the Son Jesus and God the Holy Spirit. I lived by the adage "God helps those who help themselves"

I've since learned the Holy Spirit will not force us to allow Him to teach us the new and living way. I had to be and am daily learning to be a willing participant in the maturing process. Here is an article about being baptized in the Holy Spirit. It also describes what happened to me.

Whoever reads this if you got this far., you are free to agree or disagree. And I'm free to accept the truth as it's been shown to me in the Bible. As are you.



HOLY SPIRIT

There are few things more controversial in the body of Christ than the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the accompanying gifts.
Much of modern-day Christianity sees the born-again experience as all there is to salvation. Many Christians oppose the belief that there is a separate experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit, and they especially oppose the validity of the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today’s believers.


That type of belief puts them in conflict with the book of Acts and the very teaching of Jesus. Those who experience the power of the Holy Spirit today are labeled as fanatics or heretics. But what does the Bible have to say? What did Jesus say about this?
On the night before Jesus’ crucifixion, He made one of the most astounding statements of His whole ministry. John 16:7 records these words:

“Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.”
Grasp what Jesus is saying! Jesus said it is more beneficial for us to have the ministry of the Holy Spirit than it was to have Jesus present with us in His physical body!

Most Christians are totally shocked by this. They would give anything to have Jesus present in His physical body. How could anything be better than to physically see, hear, and touch Him?

Jesus knew His disciples would be shocked by His statement, so He prefaced it with the words, “I tell you the truth.” As hard as it may be to understand, the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer is better than the earthly ministry of Jesus.
This is not to take anything away from His ministry on this earth. Without Jesus coming to the earth and accomplishing what He did, there could be no ministry of the Holy Spirit. The whole plan of God hinges on the redemptive work of Christ.


But, once His work was done, it was actually to our advantage to have Jesus return to His Father and send the Holy Spirit to take His place. Therefore, we shouldn’t lessen the preeminence of Jesus, but we should increase the importance of the Holy Spirit’s ministry.

Most Christians don’t realize how involved the Holy Spirit is in everything that the Lord does. They do not ascribe nearly enough importance to the Holy Spirit and what He is doing in the earth today. In Genesis 1:1-2, the Bible says,
“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”

In the beginning, God created all the elements needed for His creation. Then, everything else was formed from what had already been created. All the essential ingredients were in place. But nothing happened without the Spirit of God.
Notice specifically that the Spirit of God (the Holy Spirit) moved upon the face of the waters. The English word moved was translated from the Hebrew word “rachaph.” It literally means “to brood.” This is describing the manner of a hen sitting on her eggs to hatch them.

The Holy Spirit was brooding over the creation of God just waiting to bring forth whatever God the Father said. When the Lord said “Let there be light” (Gen. 1:3), then the power of the Holy Spirit brought that light into being. Likewise, with everything the Lord created and made, it was the power of the Holy Spirit that brought it all into existence.

God the Father conceived it. Jesus spoke it. And the Holy Spirit was the power that performed it. Everything God did in His creation was accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit. When God the Father was ready to bring Jesus into the earth, He took the spoken Word (Jesus), the Holy Spirit brooded over Mary (a virgin), and she conceived Jesus’ physical body.


This perfectly illustrates the Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. They are one. In fact, they are so much one that they can’t operate independent of each other. They are a team. Jesus didn’t do any miracles or start His public ministry until after He had been anointed with the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus couldn’t, or wouldn’t, operate independently of the Holy Spirit, neither should we. No one can have an effective life or ministry without the power of God’s Holy Spirit working in him or her. This fact can’t be argued by anyone who truly believes the Bible is God’s Word. The Scriptures are replete with proof that it is “not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith the LORD of hosts” (Zech. 4:6).


So, why is there so much debate over this issue? The sad truth is that denial of the ministry and power of the Holy Spirit is a convenient theology. Believing that miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit don’t operate today excuses powerless living. If it’s true that the Holy Spirit is still willing to move as in biblical times (and it is true), then there is no excuse for living lives so far removed from the victory portrayed in God’s Word.







The number one reason people resist the ministry of the Holy Spirit is because it exposes the lack of power in their lives. And once exposed, it demands a change. In an attempt to avoid responsibility for change, they change the Scriptures instead of themselves. Of course, it’s not that blatant, but there is a predisposition against the ministry of the Holy Spirit, so the Scripture is twisted to support their views.


It’s now politically correct to say that alcoholics are not responsible for their actions, depression is a chemical imbalance, and homosexuality is genetic. We’ve even had lawsuits where overweight people sue fast-food chains for their obesity. No one wants to admit that their lives are the result of their choices and actions. It’s appealing to think that someone else is at fault for their messed up lives. Sadly, the lack of personal responsibility in our society has crept into the attitudes of the church.


But, the ultimate attempt to avoid responsibility is when we place the blame on God. This goes all the way back to Adam when he said, “It’s that woman that YOU gave me” (Gen. 3). He passed the “buck” to the woman and then ultimately blamed God. But God’s judgment shows that He held Adam responsible for his own actions.


Another group of Christians willingly accept a limited ministry of the Holy Spirit as their comforter and consoler, but they still deny His miraculous power. That’s convenient, the benefits without the responsibility. These are usually the ones who also believe there isn’t a second experience with the Holy Spirit beyond being born again. They may be sincere in their beliefs, but they are sincerely wrong.


There are many clear examples in Scripture where a miraculous encounter with the Holy Spirit enabled believers to live supernatural lives. Jesus taught about two separate experiences in the believer’s life.

In John 20:28, Thomas confessed Jesus as his Lord and God. That made him “saved” according to Romans 10:9-10. Yet, the Lord told Thomas and all the disciples to tarry in Jerusalem until they received the power of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4). The reason Jesus told them to wait on the baptism of the Holy Spirit was because they didn’t have it yet. Look what happened to the disciples once they received that power. They were changed men.

Jesus said it this way in Acts 1:8,
“But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

After the Day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus’ disciples, they were powerful. They faced persecution and death fearlessly. What made the difference? By Jesus’ own words, it was the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 8, Philip preached to the Samaritans, and the whole city believed on Jesus and was baptized in water. They were saved. But Acts 8:15-16 says,
“Who, when they [the apostles] were come down, prayed for them [the Samaritans], that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus)” (brackets mine).

This is a very clear example of people being born again but still needing to receive the Holy Spirit. This can also be witnessed in Acts 19. Paul found disciples who were not baptized in the Holy Spirit. He prayed for them, and they spoke with tongues.
Spirit filled, but no tongues!
There are other believers who acknowledge a second experience with the Holy Spirit which releases power, but they refuse the part of speaking in tongues, or at least say it’s not for everyone. But the baptism of the Holy Spirit is like a pair of tennis shoes: It always comes with tongues.
I guess it’s possible to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit and not speak in tongues, but why wouldn’t you want to? If you’re afraid, don’t be! There’s no reason to fear; you’re in full control. I’m not speaking in tongues as I write this, because it’s up to me to decide when I speak in tongues. It’s the same for you. You’ll control when you speak in tongues.

Maybe there’s something else that is holding you back. I know from experience that a person whose understanding of this gift isn’t right can stifle it. I did. In my case, a denomination had instilled such fear in me that I was afraid I would get something from the devil. It wasn’t until later that I learned the Lord wouldn’t let that happen (Luke 11:13).

Andrew Wommack on the Holy Spirit


For any of the posters who do not agree about the baptism of the Holy Spirit that doesn't offend me you are free to not believe this and I and other Christians are free to believe this. I'm not hurt or upset or challenged that you don't agree.

And for those who don't like Andrew Wommack and posted a link to a site that I don't agree with their opinions on., I wouldn't have an objection to that site if they used factual material and not opinion. But I take it for what it's worth and move on. Not going to argue. That is not my job to do.

As with any of the people., pastors, teachers and preachers I read or listen to and post here., there is not one that I am in 100% agreement with. I don't expect them to be infallible like Jesus. I expect us to have differences because each one of us are learning. (or should be learning each day) But we each do hold to the foundational doctrines of the Christian faith. I can clearly see how counter productive it is to fight here on CC about the other issues. Discussion is a wonderful thing and I will engage in that but not the in fighting.

 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
Neither has anyone else it understood them. Except for stones apparently.

The proper thing and the respectful thing to do if we don't understand another post by someone else here is to ask them to please explain what they mean to say. It usually works. And if we still don't understand (and that also happens) is let it go.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,650
897
113
61


For any of the posters who do not agree about the baptism of the Holy Spirit that doesn't offend me you are free to not believe this and I and other Christians are free to believe this. I'm not hurt or upset or challenged that you don't agree.

And for those who don't like Andrew Wommack and posted a link to a site that I don't agree with their opinions on., I wouldn't have an objection to that site if they used factual material and not opinion. But I take it for what it's worth and move on. Not going to argue. That is not my job to do.

As with any of the people., pastors, teachers and preachers I read or listen to and post here., there is not one that I am in 100% agreement with. I don't expect them to be infallible like Jesus. I expect us to have differences because each one of us are learning. (or should be learning each day) But we each do hold to the foundational doctrines of the Christian faith. I can clearly see how counter productive it is to fight here on CC about the other issues. Discussion is a wonderful thing and I will engage in that but not the in fighting.

One question Stones, if baptism with the Holy Spirit as pentecostal and charismatic teach it, where was that before 1900? Between the writings of the bible and 1900?
If this teaching is right, then it is not a thing where we can say: oh thats my view ore this is not my view.
If it is true the the Holy Spirit is the founder of it and not we.
And because I find no hint that this teaching was taught in the NT churches, and cant find it in the churchhistory, i doubt that behind this is standing the Holy Spirit. If he would then he would convince every believer that this is from God. But in the practice this teaching splittes the unit of christianity.
 

wolfwint

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2014
3,650
897
113
61
One question Stones, if baptism with the Holy Spirit as pentecostal and charismatic teach it, where was that before 1900? Between the writings of the bible and 1900?
If this teaching is right, then it is not a thing where we can say: oh thats my view ore this is not my view.
If it is true the the Holy Spirit is the founder of it and not we.
And because I find no hint that this teaching was taught in the NT churches, and cant find it in the churchhistory, i doubt that behind this is standing the Holy Spirit. If he would then he would convince every believer that this is from God. But in the practice this teaching splittes the unit of christianity.
And when I see that the fellowship between charismatic, pentecostals and RCC grows i am convinced that I am not false with my doubting