Hebrews 6:1-6

[dcontroversal]

Being born again/water baptism is doing God's righteousness.

If you claim being born again is some "spiritual" event God must do to man then you are putting culpablity upon God for all those do not do righteousness. Again, you have put 100% accountability and responsibility upon God for man being born again whereby man can then do righteousness so if man does not do righteousness it's God's fault for failing to make that man born again.

Since being born again is water baptism and God has commanded water baptism then man is accountable/responsible for his own role in his salvation by obeying that command to be baptized and if he does not, then man is at fault for his being lost, not God.

Why not quote the WHOLE quote which refutes your foolishness and false doctrine.....You and your working for salvation buddies do the same thing over and over again...cut and paste snippets of what we say and prove by doctrine so as to make our stance look invalid.....here I will help you...if you are going to quote me....COPY THE WHOLE QUOTE SLICE!

That is exactly correct.....and it is evident that Doing God's Righteousness is only possible if one has been BORN AGAIN....

1. The natural man cannot know, discern and or spiritually understand the word of God as it is foolishness unto him and he cannot KNOW IT.
2. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God
3. In the grace you are having been saved out of FAITH<--salvation is the result of faith (out of faith)
4. Being saved allows for being transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may put to the test what is that good and acceptable will of GOD
5. By having number 1, thru 4 a person is
a. Born from above and has the spirit so as to compare spiritual with spiritual and can now understand the word of God and how to apply it
b. Can now do number 4 on the list and begin to be transform outside because of the transformation on the inside (Trasformed <---comes from a Greek word that we get metamorphoses from) Change outside because of the change inward....a buttery fly is a caterpillar and is changed into a butterfly due to metamorphoses
C. A man that is saved by faith which is born from above who has begun to take the word of God and understand what it means and how to apply it can in turn begin to grow and produce fruit and do the works that have already been prepared before the casting down of the world........

A man that is already SAVED by FAITH, having had the righteousness of GOD imputed by faith as a gift (saved, born again), who is now sanctified in Christ (positionally) and sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of God, can now and only now begin to understand the word which will shape, form and fashion him after the workings of CHRIST. Then and only then can they do the works that were prepared for the ALREADY CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH.

The just shall love by faith......
But with out faith (a clear spiritual gift 1st Corinthians 13) it is impossible to please God......

What is first on the list.......FAITH=HOPE--->RESULTS IN LOVE (this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments and his commandments are not heard to bear (love God and love your neighbor)

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE (first on the list is faith (believe=save)
If you believe in you heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved (Faith first on the list (believe=saved)
With the heart man BELIEVETH unto righteousness (faith first on the list=unto righteousness)
Therefore being justified by FAITH (faith first on the list=justified-->rendered legally innocent before God)

Faith has always come before works.....and faith is a GIFT FROM GOD........WORKS do not add to, facilitate, or get the free gift of FAITH.......

Faith which saves and makes it all possible.....see the numbered list above again

 

[SeaBass]

and here you immediately reveal your error. The continual cleansing in the blood of Christ is for Christians. When Jesus says, he who is bathed 'needs only to wash his feet' He was speaking of this. So yes the Christian has to walk in the light (keep his life totally open to God's light. See John 3.19-20) so that God will make his sins clear to him so that he seeks daily cleansing. But it is only effective because he has first been 'bathed' (has committed his life to Christ for salvation and trusted Him to save). John is talking to those who are already Christians, not preaching the Gospel.

I have said 1 Jn 1:7 is written to CHristians. The point I am making about this verse is that this verse REQUIRES the Christian to the WORK of walking in order for his sins to be cleansed.
This means no work in walking = sins not cleansed and the Christian becomes lost. Therefore work is necessary for the sins the Christian commits to be cleansed away

True, but they had to come to this position by an initial faith in and commitment to God to be circumcised in heart and by trusting in the blood of the sacrifices. They had no once for all sacrifice like we have. That had to precede their righteous walk.

Lk 1:6 does not say they were righteous before God because they had faith only. They were righteous for their walking/obeying God's commands.
A faith that does not obey God's commands is dead and cannot save/cannot make one righteous.

,

But Abraham walked before God AFTER he had initially been accounted as righteous. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. His acceptability before God was as a consequence of faith. This was then followed by a righteous walk.

As far back as Gen 12 Abraham ALREADY had an obedient faith in leaving his land, house, kindred to go to a land God would show him...see Heb 11:8. So Abraham could not have faith only in Gen 15 when his faith ALREADY included obedience in Gen 12.

You say, ." Again, 'walk' means to obey God as Abraham did'. In fact in Paul's statement it clearly does NOT. Paul says that it was to 'walk in the faith of our father Abraham.' In other words to have the faith that makes them accounted as righteous. It is deceitful to change what he actually says to meet with your requirements.

You constantly mix up initial salvation and consequent righteousness.

Jn 3:21 "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,.."

One first does truth to come to the light. One cannot come to the light without DOING truth. One remains in darkness as long as he does not do truth as John said one remains NOT of God as long as he does not do righteousness.


You are trying to find a way to get one saved/in the light and THEN do truth but that is backwards from the bible.

Rom 6:16 Paul said "obedience UNTO righteousness" one obeys in order to be righteous. You have it backwrds that one is righteous then obeys.

What John meant is clear from his Gospel. See John 3.19-21. It is to walk in the light of God so that what they are is revealed. 'Light is come into the world, but men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. But he who does the truth comes to the light that his works may be openly revealed that they are wrought in God. So walking in the light does NOT mean walking in righteousness. It means walking in God's light so that sin might be shown up. In Abraham's case it indicated a walk of faith. You see walking with God is not 'walking in righteousness' (although that follows). It is waking in faith and openness towards God.




We cannot have fellowship with Jesus Christ unless we are open towards Him. That is the basis of fellowship. So it is true that we are either walking daily with our lives open towards Him or are not. But the stress is on fellowship with God not walking in righteousness. You seem to be besotted with idea of you being righteous. But you are not. 'There is none righteous no not one'. That is why we must first be accounted as righteous through faith before we can walk before God



As often you missed a bit out. Accuracy in the word does not appear to be your aim. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness WE LIE and do not the truth. The point about walking is to be in fellowship with HIM. We do not do that if we walk in darkness. As a consequence we do not live truly.

In other words it is because if in our walk we are not open towards God then He cannot reveal to us the truth about our sin.



It says NOTHING about being saved. Here he is talking about walking in fellowship with God. It is a personal relationship. And sadly sometime we do walk in darkness, hiding our sins from God. But this does not necessarily mean that we are unsaved. It means that temporarily we are out of fellowship with Him.

Jn 3:21 "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

This verse has everything to do with salvation. To be saved one must be in the light not darkness yet one must DO truth to be in the light. This is why you want to say this verse "says nothing about being saved" when it does.

Clearly if someone refuses ever to come to the light they experience the condemnation of John 3.18-21. But that is not what John is talking about here. He is talking about maintaining fellowship with God.

And coming to the light is a work and one must DO truth else he cannot come to the light.

It is the opposite way round. It is because he walks in the dark so that his sins will not be revealed. Thus He does not 'believe in Him' (verse 16). But the one who comes to His light (because he has believed in Him), is doing TRUTH. He is responding to the claims of the Saviour (verses 16-18). Here to DO THE TRUTH is to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.,

Simple question: can one come to the light WITHOUT DOING truth?

Partly true. But the emphasis is not on being baptised but on the significance of what I do when I am baptised. I die with Christ and rise again. I experience the cross and resurrection in my life. Have you died with Christ and risen again? See Romans 6.1-11. And that is linked with the circumcision of the heart which indicates the application of sacrificial blood to the heart resulting in a transformed heart. You see how continually experiencing salvation in Jesus Christ PRECEDES walking in righteousness?.

An important part of the context as far as I am concerned is the part about God removing the body of sin = remission of sins = salvation. The other important part of the context is where it says God does the removing the body of sin when one is buried in baptism. So both parts,
1) God removing the body of sin and
2) me being baptized
are equally important for #1 will never happen without #2.

This is only true if the baptism takes place at the moment of believing. It is faith in Christ and in our dying with Him and rising again with Him that deals with the problem of sin, a circumcision of the heart. Baptism cannot accomplish this. It is the coming to faith of the person being baptised which results in the change within. It is experiencing the power of the cross.

God accomplishes the "circumcision made without hands". But God only accomplishes this when one is buried in baptism. So baptism in that sense remits sins (Acts 2:38) for baptism is the only place God removes the body of sin.

It takes place when we receive Jesus Christ as our Saviour, when we repent and 'believe the Gospel'. If baptism is delayed then it occurs before baptism.

We just went through Col 2:11ff showing God removes the body of sin when one is buried in baptism and now you say it happens when "we receive Jesus, when we repent". It happens when one is buried in baptism, no other time.

Of course it is a baptism made without hands of which water baptism is the symbol. It is by spiritually dying with Christ and rising with Him. If of ourselves we do not die with Him (experience the power of the cross) and rise with Him our baptism will do us no good..

Again, God removes the body of sin when one is buried in baptism, not when one has faith only....faith only is not remotely in the context.

Why were they baptised? Because they believed in Christ and experienced His salvation. The great commission was so that men might BELIEVE and be baptised. It is faith that saves them, not baptism. Baptism is a symbol of their faith. They recognised that in it they were dying with Christ and rising with Him.

They were baptized for in Peter's gospel sermon he commanded them to be baptized for remission of sins, verse 38. Those that received his words were baptized, those that rejected his word rejected being baptized. The implication is this: one has not received the gospel word until he has been baptized.



the one does not follow from the other. Many have believed the Gospel and been saved, even though they were not baptised. I believe in being baptised. But baptism does not save us. It is trust in Christ which saves.[/QUOTE]

 

[mailmandan]

Elin quoted a verse saying no one was righteous. Yet Heb 11:4 says Abel was righteous.

No one stands in their OWN righteousness (Romans 3:10-12; Philippians 3:9). Romans 10:3 - For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. You still don't believe.

Heb 11:4 "By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous,..."

By or "out of" faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he OBTAINED WITNESS that he WAS righteous. Do you really believe that Abel as an unrighteous man made that sacrifice and then became righteous? Did Noah find grace and walk with God and was a righteous man BEFORE or after he built the ark?

Abel was righteous for he did righteousness in his offering. His obedient work in offering was the witness that he was righteous.

Witness that he was righteous What about Abraham? Was sacrificing Isaac a witness that Abraham was righteous or did Abraham sacrifice Isaac in order to become righteous? Which is cause and which is effect?

No obedient work = not righteous. Could Abel be called "righteous" if he did not obey God in his offering? No. So he could not be righteous while NOT doing as God said. Again, how can one be "right doing" if he does no "right doing" at all? How can one be a servant of righteousnes when he does no righteousness? Not possible.

No righteous = no obedient work. You still have this backwards. If Abel did not obey God in offering then he would have obtained witness that he was not righteous, just like Cain. How can one do righteousness when he does not first become a servant of righteousness/faith is accounted for righteousness? (Romans 4:5). Not possible.

Heb 11:4 "

By faith Abel offered unto God" so Abel's faith INCLUDED the obedient work of offering unto God not void of obedient works. The Hebrew writer did not say "by faith only Abel obtained witness he was righteous".

It was by or out of faith that Abel offered unto God. Abel's faith produced the obedient work of offering unto God. That sacrifice was a demonstration of his faith and not the origin of it. "Faith only" that you keep alluding to is an empty profession of faith, a dead (claims to have faith but has no works to demonstrate otherwise - James 2:14). Abel was not accounted as righteous based on his works and neither was Abraham (Romans 4:2-3) and neither are we (Romans 4:4-6). You need a new pair of bi-focals that don't have works salvation lenses.

 

[SeaBass]

once again, there is NO SUCH THING AS FAITH ALONE.

Your STRAWMAN is getting old dude, your started to sound like a broken record, and its the worse song ever written. and we can;t get it to stop!

In James 2 when James said you see how by works a man is justifed and not by faith only. What was James talking about when he used the words 'faith only" if such a thing does not exist? Evidently faith only does exist and is the kind of belief the devils have (verse 19), a belief by itself only for it is void of works.

 

[SeaBass]

your right, because it is his work. thats why it is his righteousness

He made you alive, you did not make yourself alive by doing something.

He washed you in spiritual water, not some man immersing you in impure water.

but you do not teach this, you teach you make yourself alive and make some man wash you in water. and that will make you clean.

you reject the work of God. enough said.

Man has been commanded to be baptized, not God, so submitting to baptism a work man does, not God.

 

[SeaBass]

You are using 1 John 1:7 to teach that salvation is "maintained" by works, which is not the point that John is making. 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. It's one or the other. Either we walk in the light because we are in the light or else we walk in darkness because we are still in darkness. There is no middle ground.

They were both righteous before God (based on what?) What did Abraham do and it was accounted to him for righteousness? Abraham BELIEVED God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. So was Abraham accounted as righteous based on his faith or by works? (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3). Why would it be any different for John's parents? Why would it be any different for us? (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9). Zacharias and Elisabeth were not righteous through their own goodness (Isaiah 64:6; Romans 3:10), but through their faith, just as with Noah (Hebrews 11:7) and Abraham (Romans 4:3). Even under the Old Testament, the only way to be in right standing with God was by faith (Hab. 2:4; Galatians 3:11). No one could keep the law perfectly (Romans 3:23), so faith had to be put in the mercy and forgiveness of God which was illustrated by the Old Testament blood sacrifices.

This "belief only" that you keep alluding to from James 2:24 is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith and not genuine faith (James 2:14). Of course Abraham walked before God BECAUSE he had genuine faith. If Abraham would have refused to sacrifice Isaac (Genesis 22; James 2:21) then he would have demonstrated his lack of faith, but Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6) many years before he obeyed God in Genesis 22.

Believers walk/obey God BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved. You continue to try and "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works. Works salvation is no salvation at all.

Walking does not make us righteous. We walk in the light BECAUSE we are righteous, not to become righteous. You continue to read the Bible through the lens of salvation by works, which IS legalism. John's parents were righteous before the Lord because of their faith (cause) and walking in the all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless was the (effect). So how does a lost unbeliever walk in the light when he is still in darkness (Acts 26:18) in order to be made righteous? Your works based false gospel is simply Campbellite smoke and mirrors. For by grace we have been saved through FAITH? or by walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord? What does Ephesians 2:8,9 say? This is where you have to "shoe horn" works into salvation through faith, not works in order to make it fit your biased doctrine.

Exactly! One is either in darkness or in the light (Acts 26:18; 2 Corinthians 6:14; Ephesians 5:8).

One remains in darkness until he turns from darkness to light through FAITH in Christ. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. In John 3:19-21, Jesus is giving a description of those who are condemned (they practice evil) and a description of those who are saved (they practice the truth). In verse 21, Jesus is giving a description of someone who is saved, they practice the truth and come to the light, they don't practice evil and hate the light. If Jesus is teaching that we are saved through obedience (works) which follow saving faith in Christ, then why didn't He mention it in the following verses? (John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions in each of these COMPLETE statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to additional obedience/works as a prerequisite for salvation?

DOING what truth? What truth do unbelievers do? They need to repent and believe the gospel in order to turn from darkness to light. Until then, they remain in darkness. John 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. This is not works salvation.

Once again, the context shows that baptism is presented as the New Testament counterpart of circumcision in the Old Testament. They are presented in a careful parallel to each other. The one who is "in Christ" is circumcised with a circumcision made "without hands." The parallel usage of circumcision and baptism demands that we understand the "baptism" to be made "without hands" also. You missed this point. It's not about 8 days.

The spiritual circumcision takes place prior to receiving water baptism, a circumcision without hands where God does the work of removing the body of sin, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures.

That is false (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). Water baptism and not Christ's finished work of redemption is clearly the main object of your faith.

You continue to confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism) just as Roman Catholics confuse the picture (bread and wine) with the reality (broken body and shed blood of Christ).

Why would someone get water baptized who rejects the gospel? There are plenty of people who still get water baptized though who have been deceived into believing they have accepted the gospel, but they have actually accepted a different gospel of works salvation.

Then they that gladly received his word (through repentance/faith) were afterwards baptized.

Those who rejected Peter's gospel sermon signified this by refusing to get baptized. Those who accepted his gospel sermon signified this by getting baptized. Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" ​

1 Jn 1:7 DOES show that salvation/cleansing away of sins is continually maintained when one continues to do the work of walking.

Both 1 Jn 1:6 and 7 begin with the conditional word "IF" -- if the CHristian chooses to turn and walk in darkness he does not have fellowship with Christ but "IF" the Christian continues to walk in the light then he has all his sin cleansed away.

No getting around the simple fact: no work in walking = no cleansed sins= lost.

---------------------

Lk 1:6 John's parent were righteous before God based on the fact they walked in God's commands and statutes AS THE VERSE sAYS. It does not say nor remotely say they were righteous based upon their faith only. Besides that, faith only could not keep them blameless for that required work in offering the appropriate sacrifices for sins under that OT law.

You posted "Zacharias and Elisabeth were not righteous through their own goodness." And I NEVER said they were righteous for doing their own goodness but righteous because they OBEYED GOD's commands. There is a difference between a person doing his own works and trying to earn salvation by those works and one doing works GOd has given man to do.

--------------------------

In James 2:24 that faith only is dead and empty for it is void of works. Abrahams' walking shows he had an obedient faith not a dead, empty faith void of walking. If he had faith only there would have been no walking before the Lord.

-------------------------

Jesus once prayed, "thy word is truth" Jn 17:17. Jn 3:21 one must Do truth/obey God's word to come to the light. You are trying to get one to the light without doing truth.

You post "Believers walk/obey God BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved."

So you say since one is ALREADY in the light (for some reason) THEN he does truth. He is in the light for he first did truth. One remains in the dark until he does truth.

So you are back to the same theologically impossiblity of trying to make one a slave to righteousnes when he has never done righteousness, make one a slave to a drug like cocaine when he has never used cocaine.

------------------------------------------------


Once again, NT baptism is not anti-type to OT circumcision else only males would be baptized on the eighth day from birth. Circumcision for infants with no sin while baptism is for adult believers with sin.
And the circumcision made by hands happened to both males and females only when they are buried in baptism.

----------------------------------------

Col 2:11,12 the putting off the body of sins happens when one is "buried with Him in baptism". The idea of faith only is not evenly remotely in the Col 2 context.
"Baptizo" in Col 2:12 is exegesically literally, a literal immersion, literal burial in water from which one is risen. No spirit baptism remotely in the contest either. If you can change God's word by ADDING "faith only" and "spirit baptism" to Col 2:12 then ANYONE can ADD anything they please to any verse that choose to.

----------------------------

Who in Acts 2 rejected being baptized yet gladly accepted Peter's gospel message?

Not a single person for rejecting baptism IS rejecting the gospel message.

Their acceptance of the gospel word was proven by their being baptized and those who rejected Peter's words was proven by their rejecting being baptized. Peter commanded repentance and baptism in his gospel message, so how can it be said one accepted his message while rejecting repenting and being baptized? Not possible.

 

[Elin]

All are unrighteous (Ro 3:10).

The only righteousness in the sight of God is no guilt of sin because he has forgiven it.

Abel was righteous, Heb 11:4.

God does not contradict himself in his word.

Your setting Heb 11:4 against Ro 3:10 betrays how much you have yet to understand of them.

God does not reckon righteous those that have never done any righteousness for one cannot be a servant of righteousness when he has never done any righteousness.

Addressed here. . .Scripture whose meaning has yet to be explained by you.

 

[Elin]

The danger here is you are approaching God through this notion of
Penal Substitution, a doctrine which was invented by the Reformers 400 years ago.

Nope. . .

A doctrine "invented" by the prophet 2,600 years ago.

"He was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities. . .
the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isa 53:5-6)

"He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree." (2Pe 2:24)

"And he is the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 2:2)

". . .he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) for our sins." (1Jn 4:10)

"God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement (propitiation) through faith in his blood (death)."
(Ro 3:25)

Wounding--bruising--death (capital punishment) is penal,
laid on him our sins is substitutionary,
as propitiation is atonement.

 

[mailmandan]

1 Jn 1:7 DOES show that salvation/cleansing away of sins is continually maintained when one continues to do the work of walking.

John CONTRASTS - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. WITH - But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. John is NOT contrasting maintaining our walk in the light with failing to continue to walk in the light. John DID NOT say that. YOU created that third camp.

Both 1 Jn 1:6 and 7 begin with the conditional word "IF" -- if the CHristian chooses to turn and walk in darkness he does not have fellowship with Christ but "IF" the Christian continues to walk in the light then he has all his sin cleansed away.

Did John say "turn" and walk in darkness? NO. You said that. Did John say "continue" to walk in the light? NO. You said that. Quit adding your spin to God's word! Lost unbelievers walk in darkness. Saved believers walk in the light. "IF" confirms these two separate positions. It's one or the other.

No getting around the simple fact: no work in walking = no cleansed sins= lost.

No walking in the light demonstrates that you are NOT SAVED and are instead walking in darkness and are STILL LOST. Simple.

Lk 1:6 John's parent were righteous before God based on the fact they walked in God's commands and statutes AS THE VERSE sAYS.

You mean as you interpret it based on works salvation. Luke 1:6 - And they were both righteous before God, (doesn't say based on) walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. It just describes them as walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Unrighteous people are not described as such. Genesis 15:6 says Abraham BELIEVED God and it (faith, not works) was credit to him for righteousness. Does Ephesians 2:8 say for by grace you have been saved through "walking in God's and statutes blameless" or through FAITH? Scripture must harmonize with other scripture.

It does not say nor remotely say they were righteous based upon their faith only. Besides that, faith only could not keep them blameless for that required work in offering the appropriate sacrifices for sins under that OT law.

Here you go again with works salvation. What does Ephesians 2:8,9 say? Saved through faith and works or faith, not works? Are you stuck under the OT law? What sacrifices for sin are you offering under the New Covenant to make yourself blameless?

You posted "Zacharias and Elisabeth were not righteous through their own goodness." And I NEVER said they were righteous for doing their own goodness but righteous because they OBEYED GOD's commands.

So they were righteous "based on the merits of their work of offering sacrifices?" Is that what you are saying? Did God say offer these sacrifices and it will be accounted to you for righteousness to Abraham in Genesis 15:6? So OBEY God's commands by accomplishing a check list of good works in order to make ourself righteous? Is that the plan? Bad plan.

There is a difference between a person doing his own works and trying to earn salvation by those works and one doing works GOd has given man to do.

John 6:29 - This is the work of God that you BELIEVE IN HIM WHOM HE SENT. But that's not good enough for you because Christ is not enough for you. You confuse what God wants us to do to become saved with what God wants us to do after we have been saved through faith. Your doctrine is Campbellite smoke and mirrors works salvation.

In James 2:24 that faith only is dead and empty for it is void of works.

Yes, a lack of works shows that it's a dead empty profession of faith (James 2:14). I will show you (but not establish) my faith by my works (James 2;18).

Abrahams' walking shows he had an obedient faith not a dead, empty faith void of walking. If he had faith only there would have been no walking before the Lord.

Exactly, what James means by faith "only" is a dead empty profession of faith, a dead faith and not genuine faith, but Abraham was still saved through faith, not works - Abraham BELIEVED God and it (faith, not works) was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6) many years before his work of offering up Isaac in Genesis 22 and was said to be justified by works. He was shown to be righteous by works, but not saved by works.

Jesus once prayed, "thy word is truth" Jn 17:17. Jn 3:21 one must Do truth/obey God's word to come to the light. You are trying to get one to the light without doing truth.

So what truth does an unrepentant unbeliever do in order to come into the light? Did you read Acts 26:18? Did it mention a check list of works to do?

You post "

Believers walk/obey God BECAUSE they are saved, not to become saved."

Amen!

So you say since one is ALREADY in the light (for some reason) THEN he does truth. He is in the light for he first did truth. One remains in the dark until he does truth.

What truth must we do in order to come into the light? Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. You are probably not very fond of that verse since it doesn't mention water and works.

So you are back to the same theologically impossiblity of trying to make one a slave to righteousnes when he has never done righteousness, make one a slave to a drug like cocaine when he has never used cocaine.

Is choosing to believe the gospel a righteous act or an unrighteous act? How many lost unbelievers produce genuine works of righteousness apart from faith? 0 You are trying so hard to make all of this fit salvation by works, but the shoe doesn't fit.

Once again, NT baptism is

not anti-type to OT circumcision else only males would be baptized on the eighth day from birth. Circumcision for infants with no sin while baptism is for adult believers with sin. And the circumcision made by hands happened to both males and females only when they are buried in baptism.

Once again, the context shows that baptism is presented as the New Testament counterpart of circumcision in the Old Testament. They are presented in a careful parallel to each other. The one who is "in Christ" is circumcised with a circumcision made "without hands." The parallel usage of circumcision and baptism demands that we understand the "baptism" to be made "without hands" also. You missed this point. It's not about 8 days or male or female. The reality is not caused by water baptism but is pictured in baptism. You are obsessed with water baptism, just like many of the Jews were obsessed with physical circumcision.

Col 2:11,12 the putting off the body of sins happens when one is "buried with Him in baptism". The idea of faith only is not evenly remotely in the Col 2 context. "Baptizo" in Col 2:12 is exegesically literally, a literal immersion, literal burial in water from which one is risen. No spirit baptism remotely in the contest either. If you can change God's word by ADDING "faith only" and "spirit baptism" to Col 2:12 then ANYONE can ADD anything they please to any verse that choose to.

Again, the spiritual circumcision takes place prior to receiving water baptism, a circumcision without hands where God does the work of removing the body of sin, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. The working of God is Spirit baptism and raising Him from the dead, not water baptism (1 Corinthians 12:13; Romans 4:24). Notice, "by ONE SPIRIT we were all baptized into ONE BODY..." (1 Corinthians 12:13). Also notice, "...It shall be imputed to us who BELIEVE IN HIM who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead..." (Romans 4:24). That is God's work. You are adding water baptism to saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) and you continue to confuse Spirit baptism with water baptism. What a mess! The church of Christ has successfully brain washed you.

Who in Acts 2 rejected being baptized yet gladly accepted Peter's gospel message?

Nobody. Accepting the gospel is signified in baptism. Why would someone who accepted his message refuse to be baptized, but Christ is our Savior, not baptism.

Not a single person for rejecting baptism IS rejecting the gospel message.

Rejecting the gospel message is signified in refusing to get baptized. The gospel message is believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the all sufficient means of your salvation, not be dipped or condemned.

Their acceptance of the gospel word was proven by their being baptized and those who rejected Peter's words was proven by their rejecting being baptized. Peter commanded repentance and baptism in his gospel message, so how can it be said one accepted his message while rejecting repenting and being baptized? Not possible.

Again, you are trying to force "dipped or condemned" into the gospel message, but it's not there (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16). See Acts 10:43-47).

 

[Elin]

And repentance is a gift of God (2Tim 2:25; Ac 11:18, 5:31), not the work of man,
as are faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) and righteousness/justification (Ro 4:17).

The unregenerate are set in sin and cannot obey God (Ro 8:6-8).

God must give it to them or it doesn't happen.

Repentance may be a gift but it is not an offset of disability like you believe.

The NT disagrees with you.

 

[valiant]

I have said 1 Jn 1:7 is written to CHristians. The point I am making about this verse is that this verse REQUIRES the Christian to the WORK of walking in order for his sins to be cleansed.
This means no work in walking = sins not cleansed and the Christian becomes lost. Therefore work is necessary for the sins the Christian commits to be cleansed away

you err not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. Keeping ones life open to God's light is not WORKING, it is responding to God's openness and God's light. It means no open fellowship with God will result in daily sins not being cleansed. But this does not affect our salvation. We have been 'bathed' once for all at the cross. Our salvation is secure. John is talking about daily sins. Sometimes we do fail to 'wash our feet' once in a while. That is to our detriment. But it only affects our fellowship with God not our salvation. Our salvation is in the hands of Jesus Christ not in ours.

You are too involved in WORKING. It is good to work, but not in order to struggle to keep up with God. Your works will never be enough to make you acceptable to God. If you depend on them you will be lost.

Lk 1:6 does not say they were righteous before God because they had faith only. They were righteous for their walking/obeying God's commands.

It was because they had true saving faith that they walked with God. Like Abraham they had believed God and it had been counted to them for righteousness. Thus like Abraham they then walked with God.

You have this totally mistaken idea that Christians do not seek to live righteously. Of course they do. But they do so because Christ has saved them and worked righteousness within them not because of their own righteousness.

A faith that does not obey God's commands is dead and cannot save/cannot make one righteous.

very true, but it is faith in Jesus Christ as our Saviour that prompts us to righteousness. We do not do righteousness because we fear that if we don't we will be lost.

As far back as Gen 12 Abraham ALREADY had an obedient faith in leaving his land, house, kindred to go to a land God would show him...see Heb 11:8. So Abraham could not have faith only in Gen 15 when his faith ALREADY included obedience in Gen 12.

No one said he had faith only in Gen 15. He presumably had faith in Ur of the Chaldees, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Otherwise why did he leave? His continuing faith was counted to him for righteousness, not his works. He was a believer. We do not have faith and then forget it once we are saved. Our faith continues and grows more and more like Abraham's did.

Jn 3:21 "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,.." One first does truth to come to the light.

One cannot come to the light without DOING truth. One remains in darkness as long as he does not do truth

But what in context is doing truth? It is believing in the Son for salvation (verse 16). As Jesus said, 'this is the work of God that you believe in Him Whom He has sent'. That is what is necessary for salvation. That is why we can boldly come to the light.

as John said one remains NOT of God as long as he does not do righteousness.

As we might expect knowing you, that is actually NOT what John said. He said, and we say, 'he who does righteousness is born of Him'. That is why he does righteousness. It is because he has first been born of the Spirit. He has been saved. 'By this we know that He abides in us by His Spirit which He has given to us. In John the dividing line is not between those who do righteousness and those who do not do righteousness, it is between those who believe and those who do not believe. In each CASE THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS OR THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS A CONSEQUENCE OF THEIR BELIEF.

You are trying to find a way to get one saved/in the light and THEN do truth but that is backwards from the bible.

Doing TRUTH is believing unto salvation which then results in deeds which are 'wrought of God.' (John 3.16, 21). It is believing in the Son Whom God has given. It is accepting the truth and believing in it. It is NOT doing righteousness in order to be saved. The righteousness results from doing truth, that is believing in Him Whom He has sent. So it is you who have it backwards.

Rom 6:16 Paul said "obedience UNTO righteousness" one obeys in order to be righteous. You have it backwrds that one is righteous then obeys.

But look at the context. These words follow Paul's detailed explanation of the way of salvation. It is because Jesus died on the cross, and we as it were died with Him, resulting in us being raised with Him from spiritual death, that he says what follows. Reckon yourselves to be dead to sin and alive to God through Jesus Christ our LORD (v. 11), It is this that enables us to live righteously.

Having been saved through the cross and resurrection we live out that resurrection life. How? Not by being a slave to the Law seeking after our own righteousness, but by living out Christ's righteousness. You see we live as righteously as you, perhaps moreso, but we do it because we have been crucified with Christ, and because He lives in us.,

Jn 3:21 "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

This verse has everything to do with salvation. To be saved one must be in the light not darkness yet one must DO truth to be in the light. This is why you want to say this verse "says nothing about being saved" when it does.

I see no reference to being saved. What I see is an aftermath of salvation. Having believed on God's only begotten Son Whom He gave for us, and having received eternal life, thus 'doing' truth (the work of believing in Him Whom He has sent - John 6.29), we then want to bring its consequences to the light so that it may be seen that all that we do from then on in truth is wrought in God. Note that it is wrought in God. This can only be because He has worked in us to will and do of His good pleasure resulting in our working out HIS SALVATION (Phil 2.12-13).

And coming to the light is a work and one must DO truth else he cannot come to the light.

No coming to the light is a way of making sure that what we do is of God. God's light shines on it and reveals it for what it is. But we can only come to the light without fear if we have obeyed Jesus when He said, 'This is the work of God that you believe on Him Whom He has sent'. (John 6.29), It is primarily by believing that we 'do truth'. We experience John 3.16, then we move on to 3.20-21.

Simple question: can one come to the light WITHOUT DOING truth?

Simple answer. Of course not. Until we have believed in Jesus Christ for salvation (do truth) we cling to the dark. It is only when we are saved that we come to the light.

An important part of the context as far as I am concerned is the part about God removing the body of sin = remission of sins = salvation. The other important part of the context is where it says God does the removing the body of sin when one is buried in baptism.

What odd ideas you have to be sure. The body of sin is removed by being crucified with Christ, not by baptism. It is not talking about remission of sins (which is only a part of it) but of God dealing with sinful flesh, which is a theme of Romans, see chapter 8. As we come in faith to Christ and are crucified with Him by the Spirit, His death is put to our account and we are accounted as righteous and saved. Furthermore His death works in us to crucify the flesh with its affections and desires. Its power is broken. Then as a consequence of receiving the risen Christ He lives out His life though us. That is why we are to reckon ourselves as dead to sin and alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord (v.11)

So both parts,
1) God removing the body of sin and
2) me being baptized
are equally important for #1 will never happen without #2.

well if you want to believe that a bath of water can do this for you believe it if you like. I prefer to put my trust in the work of Christ on my behalf. The baptism in v 3 is mainly the baptism in the Spirit. It is only symbolised by water baptism. It is the Spirit who works death in me and resurrection life.

 

[weakness]

lol.

so that proves you right?

Can you tell what a person does in his heart? you can read minds? so you can judge people by their intentions?

news flash.

works are produced by faith, not the other way around (works do not produce faith) like sea bass, skinski ( I see he drove in) and Jason. are preaching.[/QUOTE You have twisted things! We don't have to see in the heart, what obedient works do is show whats in the heart. I don't see people saying faith is produced by works, but that faith will produce works, show me your faith by your works. We can see the heart by works people do. Paul says he presses on as one who has not yet won the race, the winner at the end wins the prize, if Paul is so sure he is eternally saved why doesn't he just start walking instead of running? We have only the ernest of the Spirit , not the full payment. Also Is believing in Christ works? It is our doing, when we trust in him ,is that works also? I must state again ,I don't hear much about the HS doing these works through us. And if that the case it is not us but the Spirit within us. And can't be our works! LOVE, JOY ,peace, long suffering etc. are all the fruit of the Spirit, not our fruit. I am my beloveds and my beloveds is mine. Knowledge puffs up ,but love edifies. I think some are just hanging on to some knowledge they think they have, and argue it unceasingly because they are not secure in God's love for them. They think by Knowing much,whether true or not, they secure themselves to a pseudo rightness. Thats how the world thinks. And why so many argue dogma because their being right equates some how to power or position. Again ,when we believe in God ,is it works???? please answer, seem no one hardly ever responds to my post and I don' know why. Some times I wonder if anybody even sees them??

 

[weakness]

Why not quote the WHOLE quote which refutes your foolishness and false doctrine.....You and your working for salvation buddies do the same thing over and over again...cut and paste snippets of what we say and prove by doctrine so as to make our stance look invalid.....here I will help you...if you are going to quote me....COPY THE WHOLE QUOTE SLICE!

That is exactly correct.....and it is evident that Doing God's Righteousness is only possible if one has been BORN AGAIN....

1. The natural man cannot know, discern and or spiritually understand the word of God as it is foolishness unto him and he cannot KNOW IT.
2. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God
3. In the grace you are having been saved out of FAITH<--salvation is the result of faith (out of faith)
4. Being saved allows for being transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may put to the test what is that good and acceptable will of GOD
5. By having number 1, thru 4 a person is
a. Born from above and has the spirit so as to compare spiritual with spiritual and can now understand the word of God and how to apply it
b. Can now do number 4 on the list and begin to be transform outside because of the transformation on the inside (Trasformed <---comes from a Greek word that we get metamorphoses from) Change outside because of the change inward....a buttery fly is a caterpillar and is changed into a butterfly due to metamorphoses
C. A man that is saved by faith which is born from above who has begun to take the word of God and understand what it means and how to apply it can in turn begin to grow and produce fruit and do the works that have already been prepared before the casting down of the world........

A man that is already SAVED by FAITH, having had the righteousness of GOD imputed by faith as a gift (saved, born again), who is now sanctified in Christ (positionally) and sealed with the HOLY SPIRIT of God, can now and only now begin to understand the word which will shape, form and fashion him after the workings of CHRIST. Then and only then can they do the works that were prepared for the ALREADY CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH.

The just shall love by faith......
But with out faith (a clear spiritual gift 1st Corinthians 13) it is impossible to please God......

What is first on the list.......FAITH=HOPE--->RESULTS IN LOVE (this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments and his commandments are not heard to bear (love God and love your neighbor)

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that BELIEVE (first on the list is faith (believe=save)
If you believe in you heart that God has raised him from the dead thou shalt be saved (Faith first on the list (believe=saved)
With the heart man BELIEVETH unto righteousness (faith first on the list=unto righteousness)
Therefore being justified by FAITH (faith first on the list=justified-->rendered legally innocent before God)

Faith has always come before works.....and faith is a GIFT FROM GOD........WORKS do not add to, facilitate, or get the free gift of FAITH.......

Faith which saves and makes it all possible.....see the numbered list above again

Actually Hope is first,and faith does not = Hope. Faith is the substance of what we hope for and evidence of what we can not see, so we can't have faith unless we first have hope . When we here the gospel preached we first have Hope in life and God,then our faith gives us a substance of that hope and makes it real to us then we can believe and have faith in it. But now abides faith, hope, and love ,the greatest is love. faith and hope will pass away and love will abide forever. Heb 11 is all about faith. And just to point out that for every action of faith there was a work or response that followed, but these are works of faith not works for salvation. I really don't think any body in his right mind could believe he could do enough works to be righteous, but works obeying God's voice is a whole other story.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You must not have read what I posted. YOU are claiming if one does works then he is earning his salvation yet Peter commanded men to do the works of repenting and beig baptized so Peter was commanding them to earn their salvation by doing those works? Hardly. God commanded Abraham to earn his justification by offering Isaac? Hardly. This is the problem your theology presents you by wrongly claiming any work automatically earn salvation.

posted by you!

Originally Posted by SeaBass

Peter in Acts 2 did not command his hearers to be baptized and thereby earn your remission of sins. You still refuse to see that obeying Gods' will in being baptized does not earn salvation no more than Abraham obeying God's will in offering Isaac earned his justification. You will not see this difference for it will kill the faith only theology...if you saw this difference you would not have your straw man trot out.

Thats the problem when your doctrine is faulty. You have to make things up. then get caught in your own lie.

No, you have been saying all along that if one does works he is trying to earn salvation so you have been saying one can obtain salvation by faith with no works. But if one has no works then he cannot even prove he has faith. So you are trying to get one saved by a faith one cannot even prove he has.

No. Your a liar. and your rants are getting old. You lie about what you say, you flip flop when your cornered and when that does not work. you LIE about what others say.

So show where I have ever said a person can have faith and never work?

I will be waiting while you try to remove your foot from your mouth

Eph 2:10 says one cannot be a Christian unless he walks in good works. So here again we have WORKS being a necessary part of salvation for if the Christian quits doing good works he will fall way and be lost. So those good works are necessary for the Christian to keep/maintain his promise of salvation.

No. Eph 2: 8 - 9 says we are never saved by works, but by grave THROUGH FAITH.

Grace is not works. it is given ONLY to those who do not deserve it.

EPH 2: 10 SAYS CLEARLY. ONE WHO WAS CREATED NEW IN CHRIST WILL WORK.

You ADD THE WORD MUST. making it legalism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In James 2 when James said you see how by works a man is justifed and not by faith only. What was James talking about when he used the words 'faith only" if such a thing does not exist? Evidently faith only does exist and is the kind of belief the devils have (verse 19), a belief by itself only for it is void of works.

lol. So you IGNORE what James said?

If a man CLAIM to have FAITH, BUT HAS ZERO WORKS. his faith is dead?

You can not make yourself as a man of God, or a man who should be listened to if your going to IGNORE what James says, and take something else he said out of context.

all yuo do is make yourself look like an ignorant man who does not understand how to properly study anything.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Man has been commanded to be baptized, not God, so submitting to baptism a work man does, not God.

Man was commanded to do alot of things. Yet NON OF THEM WILL MAKE A PERSON RIGHTEOUS.

If you want to save yourself by letting some sinner wash you in impure water, feel free.

Do not condemn those of us who have recieved Gods washing by the Holy spirit. the living water which springs to eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have twisted things! We don't have to see in the heart, what obedient works do is show whats in the heart. I don't see people saying faith is produced by works, but that faith will produce works, show me your faith by your works. We can see the heart by works people do. Paul says he presses on as one who has not yet won the race, the winner at the end wins the prize, if Paul is so sure he is eternally saved why doesn't he just start walking instead of running? We have only the ernest of the Spirit , not the full payment. Also Is believing in Christ works? It is our doing, when we trust in him ,is that works also? I must state again ,I don't hear much about the HS doing these works through us. And if that the case it is not us but the Spirit within us. And can't be our works! LOVE, JOY ,peace, long suffering etc. are all the fruit of the Spirit, not our fruit. I am my beloveds and my beloveds is mine. Knowledge puffs up ,but love edifies. I think some are just hanging on to some knowledge they think they have, and argue it unceasingly because they are not secure in God's love for them. They think by Knowing much,whether true or not, they secure themselves to a pseudo rightness. Thats how the world thinks. And why so many argue dogma because their being right equates some how to power or position. Again ,when we believe in God ,is it works???? please answer, seem no one hardly ever responds to my post and I don' know why. Some times I wonder if anybody even sees them??

No, I have not twisted things.

A person can get baptized, go to church every week. Give money to the church, Participate in communion. Not do these horrific sins everyone preaches against. Give to the poor. And NEVER KNOW GOD.

A person doing good deeds can not prove to me he is saved, His words and gospel, followed by what he does, may prove it, but even that would be futile,

 

[weakness]

Have we not cast out demons and done many wonderful works in thy name.... depart from me you who work iniquity , I never knew you. This is true. Also true is faith without works is dead, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit ofGod dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he isnone of his. yes even the demons believe and tremble as their works. I guess what Jesus said about having the witness in our selves, the Holy spirit,which will lead and guide us into all truth, Thank God. Thanks for responding EG

 

[SarahM777]

See the whole problem in this entire argument is that BOTH FAITH and WORKS are TIED together. Going to far one way or the other gets out of BALANCE and ends up here as one preacher understood

Jesus is saying, "You are in me and remain in my, so make sure you keep my commandments. For I must give each of you a task as a sign to others that you are my true branches. That task is to love each other. I keep this command myself so that I can be an example and model to you. And I remain in my Father's love because I keep this command. Therefore, if you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love." Earlier in this book, Christ also says, "By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (Jn 13.35). So there are two parts of Christian teaching that we must emphasize daily. Neither faith nor works can be ignored. For when faith isn't preached--when no one explains how we are joined to Christ and become branches in him--then everyone resorts to their own works. On the other hand, when we teach only about faith, this lopsidedness leads to false Christians. These people praise faith, are baptized, and even call themselves Christians, but they don't show any fruit or power. That's why it's so difficult to preach. No matter how I preach, something goes wrong. Someone always goes off on a tangent. If I don't preach about faith, the result will be useless and hypocritical works. If I only emphasize faith, no one does any good works. The result is either useless, faithless do-gooders or believers who don't do any good works. So we must preach the message to those who accept both faith and works. We must preach to those who want to remain in the vine, put their trust in Christ, and put their faith into action in their everyday lives.

Luther on Faith and Works

 

[MarcR]

I don't think anyone on this thread questions the need for works in the life of a believer.


The point of disagreement is: 'Whose works?'

Some here believe that their own works are instrumental in their Salvation and Christian walk.

others, including me, believe that only God working in and through us is of value.


Ro 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

Ro 8:1-2
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
KJV


If we have true faith, there certainly will be works in our lives but God will be doing them in and through us and He will get ALL the credit.