Hebrews 6 & 10 DO NOT speak to "losing your salvation"....read on!

[FreeGrace2]

Some say that it is their works that shall be cast forth and burned, but John 15:6 says it is they, not their works, that shall be cast forth and burned. The M.O. for OSAS belief is pretty obvious. Men have always sought for indulgences to sin.

Please read it again. Jesus makes a figure of speech statement. Comparing unfruitful believers with unfruitful branches.

What does the farmer do with unfruitful branches. Throws them in the fire. There is no reason to equate this (spiritualize) to mean casting into the lake of fire.

1 Cor 3:14,15 proves that fire is also used for God's judgment of works of wood hay and stubble, which is burned, but the believer "is saved". It's real clear.

To throw an unfruitful branch into the fire is to take the branch out of service. And the fire is useful for heat for the farmer. So he still gets some use out of that useless branch.

Fire is used to describe God's discipline, judgment on His children.

It's just sad that so many believers misunderstand God's word.

Since you don't believe in eternal security, please address my comments about John 5:24 and 10:28. The verses teach that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN a person believes, and recipients of eternal life SHALL NEVER PERISH.

The word "never" is sure a very long time. Don'tcha think?

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
The "falling away" refers to "believing for a while". Jesus said NOTHING about losing salvation."""

This is what I said.

Ok now i see the origin logic of osas premise ..."obviously that ole boy never was saved"

Apparently you aren't seeing anything. Jesus acknowledged the second soil was saved. Just read the previous verse:
Luke 8:12 - 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Jesus stated the truth as a negative, but the principle is the same. Those who believe ARE saved. Those who don't believe ARE NOT saved.

Then in the very next verse Jesus notes that the second soil BELIEVED. So believe Jesus. I don't care what you think of my posts. Just believe what Jesus said. Then you can't go wrong.

Being in Christ is shaky.

If you believe that to be true, then prove it from Scripture. I've already quoted Eph 1:13,14 which also proves eternal security.

Salvation is what i hope i can sin in.

That is beyond absurd. Salvation is trusting Jesus Christ for saving me from the lake of fire by dying for my sin and giving me eternal life, so that I SHALL NEVER PERISH. That's what Jesus said.

Believe Jesus. I don't care what you believe or reject about my posts. Just believe what Jesus said.

And certain pastors are equipped to make me happy in a walk that removes Holiness as a target

let's leave stupid ignorant pastors out of this, ok? Let's just deal with the verses I have quoted.

Look we are all sorta in a state of imperfection.

True but not the point. Jesus Christ died for everyone because everyone is imperfect. Fallen.

But holiness is the target.

Not for salvation.

That target will never happen outside of being red hot for Jesus.

This just smacks of a works based salvation.

I get one...i get the other.

No, you just don't get it at all. I'd grade your pastor with an F.

Osas is AUTOMATICALLY lower the bar or even just setting it on the ground

Then please tell Jesus that, ok? He clearly taught eternal security, as I've shown and you have sidestepped.

Which I understand why. I've never found an Arminian who can explain John 5:24 and 10:28 to show something other than eternal security. The same for Eph 1:13,14.

And there are many more verses.

 

[oyster67]

I gave you John 5:24 and 10:28. Why do you disbelieve these verses?

Interesting that you should mention the word "disbelieve". John 5:24 is conditioned on continued belief.

John
5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Now lets see what your other pet verse is conditioned upon...

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

I also find it interesting how Jesus only promises that they will never be plucked out by others. If they forsake their salvation, it will be their own fault, not any other man's, and especially not God's. God will always uphold His side of the bargain, but unrepented-of sin will always carry along dire consequences. That is what the Bible says.

 

[oyster67]

There is no reason to equate this (spiritualize) to mean casting into the lake of fire.

There is every reason to believe it means exactly what it says. No wall of text can explain the Truth away... not even if it be long as the Wall of China.

 

[Absolutely]

This is what I said.


Apparently you aren't seeing anything. Jesus acknowledged the second soil was saved. Just read the previous verse:
Luke 8:12 - 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Jesus stated the truth as a negative, but the principle is the same. Those who believe ARE saved. Those who don't believe ARE NOT saved.

Then in the very next verse Jesus notes that the second soil BELIEVED. So believe Jesus. I don't care what you think of my posts. Just believe what Jesus said. Then you can't go wrong.


If you believe that to be true, then prove it from Scripture. I've already quoted Eph 1:13,14 which also proves eternal security.


That is beyond absurd. Salvation is trusting Jesus Christ for saving me from the lake of fire by dying for my sin and giving me eternal life, so that I SHALL NEVER PERISH. That's what Jesus said.

Believe Jesus. I don't care what you believe or reject about my posts. Just believe what Jesus said.


let's leave stupid ignorant pastors out of this, ok? Let's just deal with the verses I have quoted.


True but not the point. Jesus Christ died for everyone because everyone is imperfect. Fallen.


Not for salvation.


This just smacks of a works based salvation.


No, you just don't get it at all. I'd grade your pastor with an F.


Then please tell Jesus that, ok? He clearly taught eternal security, as I've shown and you have sidestepped.

Which I understand why. I've never found an Arminian who can explain John 5:24 and 10:28 to show something other than eternal security. The same for Eph 1:13,14.

And there are many more verses.

"""But holiness is the target."""
Your answer ;"""Not for salvation"""

 

[Absolutely]

This is what I said.


Apparently you aren't seeing anything. Jesus acknowledged the second soil was saved. Just read the previous verse:
Luke 8:12 - 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Jesus stated the truth as a negative, but the principle is the same. Those who believe ARE saved. Those who don't believe ARE NOT saved.

Then in the very next verse Jesus notes that the second soil BELIEVED. So believe Jesus. I don't care what you think of my posts. Just believe what Jesus said. Then you can't go wrong.


If you believe that to be true, then prove it from Scripture. I've already quoted Eph 1:13,14 which also proves eternal security.


That is beyond absurd. Salvation is trusting Jesus Christ for saving me from the lake of fire by dying for my sin and giving me eternal life, so that I SHALL NEVER PERISH. That's what Jesus said.

Believe Jesus. I don't care what you believe or reject about my posts. Just believe what Jesus said.


let's leave stupid ignorant pastors out of this, ok? Let's just deal with the verses I have quoted.


True but not the point. Jesus Christ died for everyone because everyone is imperfect. Fallen.


Not for salvation.


This just smacks of a works based salvation.


No, you just don't get it at all. I'd grade your pastor with an F.


Then please tell Jesus that, ok? He clearly taught eternal security, as I've shown and you have sidestepped.

Which I understand why. I've never found an Arminian who can explain John 5:24 and 10:28 to show something other than eternal security. The same for Eph 1:13,14.

And there are many more verses.

Judging from all your responses, you did not hear a word i said.

You definately did not hear what i said.

It is your mentality that paul referred to in " let us lay aside foundational doctrine and pursue some meatier dynamics."

I talk of " holiness"
You reframe it into a salvation issue.

Are you aware that as saved belivers we have a walk?

Most of pauls instructions are concerning our walk.

So those things we do are not FOR SALVATION.

I keep hearing baptists speak as if anything we do as believers is automatically works for salvation.

That is regressive.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Interesting that you should mention the word "disbelieve". John 5:24 is conditioned on continued belief.

No it's not. Your claim is an abuse of the Greek present tense. Show me, if you can, any Greek text that says that the result of a present tense verb requires the verb to continue, or if a present tense verb ceases, the results cease.

The point of Johh 5:24 is that the MOMENT one believes (which would obviously be "in the present" for the one believing), they possess (in the present) eternal life.

Unless you can show clearly that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to possess eternal life, you have no point.

Further, Jesus couldn't have been more clear. Those He gives eternal life shall never perish. Do these words mean anything to you?

John
5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Now lets see what your other pet verse is conditioned upon...

So why isn't John 10:28 not YOUR pet verse? What is it about that verse that you don't like?

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

I also find it interesting how Jesus only promises that they will never be plucked out by others.

Wow. So much to correct here.

First, stop ignoring the clear words in v.28a. Those given eternal life shall never perish. Period. Case closed.

However, Jesus didn't mention "others" as you insinuate. He said "anyone". The Greek 'tis' means any person or object. Do you know what "any person" includes? It EVEN includes the believer him/herself.

What Jesus DIDN'T say was "any other person", which is your faulty claim.

If they forsake their salvation, it will be their own fault, not any other man's, and especially not God's.

Agreed. I believe in free will.

God will always uphold His side of the bargain, but unrepented-of sin will always carry along dire consequences. That is what the Bible says.

Also agreed.

But...what the Bible NEVER says is that salvation can be lost.

In salvation there aren't any 2 sides. Only 1. Salvation is God's plan, not ours. We don't get to dictate anything about His plan.

His plan is to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21. In fact, the verse says "God is pleased...to save those who believe".

What you are in essence claiming is that those given eternal life CAN perish.

Even though Jesus said the EXACT OPPOSITE. Those given eternal life, which is at the MOMENT of saving faith, shall NEVER perish.

All you're doing is trying (vainly) to find some escape route to conclude that salvation can be lost. Nope.

When Jesus gives a brand new believer eternal life (John 5:24) that person shall never perish (John 10:28).

You included v.27 with v.28 and 29. I'm glad you didn't follow the usual Arminian argument that ONLY those who listen and follow Jesus will get eternal life, or some such thing.

John 5:24 makes it crystal clear that eternal life is the present possession of believers.

There are NO verses that teach that eternal life can be rescinded, revoked, lost, given away, forfeited, etc.

So, from the MOMENT of saving faith in Christ, that person shall never perish. That is eternal security.

As much as it really bugs the Arminians.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
There is no reason to equate this (spiritualize) to mean casting into the lake of fire.

There is every reason to believe it means exactly what it says.

And I AGREE!! But what Jesus didn't say was anything about loss of salvation. He was using a figure of speech to make a point that all farmers (1st Century Palestine was agrarian) understood, unlike yourself, being a 21st Century dweller.

No wall of text can explain the Truth away... not even if it be long as the Wall of China.

No amount of false spiritualizing can have the truth. That's all you've done.

If your view of John 15 were correct, then you better cut John 5:24 and 10:28 out of your Bible, because those 2 verses totally refute your misunderstanding of John 15.

 

[FreeGrace2]

"""But holiness is the target."""
Your answer ;"""Not for salvation"""

OK, I see what you think. Only holy people will be saved. Got it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Judging from all your responses, you did not hear a word i said.

You definately did not hear what i said.

I guess you didn't read anything I posted. Because I addressed all your points and comments.

I talk of " holiness"
You reframe it into a salvation issue.

You're the one who attached "holiness" to being some kind of target. If you weren't referring to salvation, then just what were you referring to by "target"?

Are you aware that as saved belivers we have a walk?

Without question I do. But there is NOTHING in our walk that can result in losing salvation.

Most of pauls instructions are concerning our walk.

Of course. Are you aware of the commands to STOP grieving the Holy Spirit in Eph 4:30 or STOP quenching the Spirit in 1 These 5:19?

What do you think these commands are about?

So those things we do are not FOR SALVATION.

Glad to know you don't think they are for salvation.

I keep hearing baptists speak as if anything we do as believers is automatically works for salvation.

That is regressive.

They sure have a problem if that is what they think.

 

[Blade]

Hey all.. today there is no excuse to search. So lets hit one.. WHO was He talking to? Well there were some Jewish believers in Christ that when they sinned would try to go back and offer a sacrifice for that sin. There is no more sacrifice for that sin. Christ can not die again so in doing that they put Christ to open shame. Now some can make the free choice to ignore what I just posted yet its not some made up story its fact.

Oh there is another one just like this for the other verse which is? Anyway when talking about Matt-John try to remember there were no Christians nor Church into account.

So you can argue debate this yet.. its not about believers losing there salvation. DIG don't believe me you find this out for your self. We tend to follow so and so and what they believe.. Jesus .... you do believe Hes real right? Can He lie? Then YOU as His sheep KNOW not guess not wonder but KNOW His voice. Can you not pray about this seek the truth coming in with no preconceived ideas and let the sweet holy Spirit show you? I do wonder do we really believe He is real.. careful what you say.. He may test you.

 

[HatedForNoReason]

All the warning verses sound bad. Because God's discipline is PAINFUL. Heb 12:11 - No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

John 15-
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunesso that it will be even more fruitful.
3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

I included the context to better understand v.6.

In v.3, Jesus makes clear that the 11 He was speaking to were saved. "clean"
The word "remain" refers to fellowship, not relationship. Once saved, the believer IS a child of God. Can you change your birth parents? No. Same in the spiritual sense. God never stops being the believer's heavenly Father.

What Jesus is clearly teaching is that the ONLY WAY to "bear fruit" (v.2,4,5) is to be in fellowship with Him.

How could Jesus be teaching that salvation can be lost when He already taught in John 5:24 that the MOMENT one believes they POSSESS eternal life, and in John 10:28 those He gives eternal life (believers) shall never perish?

Unless one considers the whole council of God, individual verses can easily be misunderstood.

But when all of what Jesus taught is considered, it is clear that He NEVER taught that salvation can be lost.

2 Corinthians 1:22
New King James Version

22 who also has sealed us and given us (God's elects) the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Holy Spirit has the effect of removing boredom forever and you no longer burn out. You have peace with God. No more boredom and no more constant sinful desires that can never be satisfied.

Holy Spirit is the permanent cure to boredom (Proof: John 14:26-27 and Philippians 4:7) but it’s only given to God’s elects.


Matthew 11:28-30
New King James Version

28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am [a]gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

No more burdens of sin and guilt. The peace is eternal and don't have to worry anymore.

Proverbs 27:20
King James Version (KJV)

20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.


Isaiah 57:20-21
King James Version

20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.

 

[Absolutely]

Hey all.. today there is no excuse to search. So lets hit one.. WHO was He talking to? Well there were some Jewish believers in Christ that when they sinned would try to go back and offer a sacrifice for that sin. There is no more sacrifice for that sin. Christ can not die again so in doing that they put Christ to open shame. Now some can make the free choice to ignore what I just posted yet its not some made up story its fact.

Oh there is another one just like this for the other verse which is? Anyway when talking about Matt-John try to remember there were no Christians nor Church into account.

So you can argue debate this yet.. its not about believers losing there salvation. DIG don't believe me you find this out for your self. We tend to follow so and so and what they believe.. Jesus .... you do believe Hes real right? Can He lie? Then YOU as His sheep KNOW not guess not wonder but KNOW His voice. Can you not pray about this seek the truth coming in with no preconceived ideas and let the sweet holy Spirit show you? I do wonder do we really believe He is real.. careful what you say.. He may test you.

Who was he talking to?
The church.

 

[Absolutely]

Interesting that you should mention the word "disbelieve". John 5:24 is conditioned on continued belief.

John
5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Now lets see what your other pet verse is conditioned upon...

10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

I also find it interesting how Jesus only promises that they will never be plucked out by others. If they forsake their salvation, it will be their own fault, not any other man's, and especially not God's. God will always uphold His side of the bargain, but unrepented-of sin will always carry along dire consequences. That is what the Bible says.

Yes
The clue is Jesus response for divorce.
Adultery.

Bingo

If i am a saved harlot. Well that would get me a warm lake ....but maybe mercy triumphs over judgement.

He is the judge...not me

 

[FreeGrace2]

If i am a saved harlot. Well that would get me a warm lake

ANyone who is saved will be in heaven. Jesus said those who believe possess eternal life in John 5:24. He also said those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

Your response here shows that you disagree with what Jesus said.

....but maybe mercy triumphs over judgement.

Always.

He is the judge...not me

I thank God for that!

 

[oyster67]

ANyone who is saved will be in heaven.

Obviously.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
ANyone who is saved will be in heaven.

Obviously.

Obviously not to the poster of #74.

 

[oyster67]

Obviously not to the poster of #74.

Not sure what he meant by...

If i am a saved harlot. Well that would get me a warm lake

 

[FreeGrace2]

Not sure what he meant by...

He said:
"If i am a saved harlot. Well that would get me a warm lake"

Seems to me he was thinking the lake of fire, but in a less hot area. He has posted his belief that salvation can be lost.

 

[oyster67]

He has posted his belief that salvation can be lost.

I myself believe that apostacy is possible, but only when one permanently refuses to repent after hardening their heart toward their first love (God). I belief that many passages allude to this happening in the last days...

Hebrews
6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
6:4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers [is] rejected, and [is] nigh unto cursing; whose end [is] to be burned.

Hebrews
10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering; (for he [is] faithful that promised
10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.