Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...
- Thread starter Katy-follower
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For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’
Luke 14:29-30
At what point does someone gain salvation?
Is there a marker saying, here on this day, this second they got "salvation"?
As emotional creatures often we can start things and then find they are too
expensive and difficult. There are points along the way of change and decision.
The problem with talking about black and white language, is it is not helpful
when dealing with individuals and what is the essential realities of the faith.
The words faith, perseverance, faithfulness, patience, love and truth keep
coming through. The idea is about staying faithful to the end, not because
that is just how you qualify but because that is the meaning of relationships.
A relationship in the past that has died is now dead, it does not magically
reappear. So a faith that has died is that, dead.
Sometimes you could understand it never really existed, or the love from within
did not properly connect, so was a miss-understanding. There are many in church
history you can point to who clearly demonstrate this.
Jesus simply says "Abide in me" in this there is no problem.
Luke 14:29-30
At what point does someone gain salvation?
Is there a marker saying, here on this day, this second they got "salvation"?
As emotional creatures often we can start things and then find they are too
expensive and difficult. There are points along the way of change and decision.
The problem with talking about black and white language, is it is not helpful
when dealing with individuals and what is the essential realities of the faith.
The words faith, perseverance, faithfulness, patience, love and truth keep
coming through. The idea is about staying faithful to the end, not because
that is just how you qualify but because that is the meaning of relationships.
A relationship in the past that has died is now dead, it does not magically
reappear. So a faith that has died is that, dead.
Sometimes you could understand it never really existed, or the love from within
did not properly connect, so was a miss-understanding. There are many in church
history you can point to who clearly demonstrate this.
Jesus simply says "Abide in me" in this there is no problem.
We don't lose it because it is based on Jesus' work only. Unless we are trying to work for it by our own self-effort or self-righteousness - this type of mindset is confused about the truth of the gospel and so in their minds it is based on what they do.
But the truth is that Jesus is the author and finisher of faith and we are sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit. Right believing produces right thinking which produces right living - but it is all based on Christ's work.
Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
But the truth is that Jesus is the author and finisher of faith and we are sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit. Right believing produces right thinking which produces right living - but it is all based on Christ's work.
Philippians 1:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
E
at what point is one saved?
When God has determined,, This person has received in faith my gift of eternal life. (think tax collector vs pharisee) I have declaired it is his forever.
He will never die, Never hunger or thirst (spiritually) live forever and I will rais him on the last day, He has MY personal guarantee, and just in case he wonders, Here, I give him my Holy Spirit as a pledge and a deal until that wonderful day of redemption.
God determines when a person got or gets saved, not us..
When God has determined,, This person has received in faith my gift of eternal life. (think tax collector vs pharisee) I have declaired it is his forever.
He will never die, Never hunger or thirst (spiritually) live forever and I will rais him on the last day, He has MY personal guarantee, and just in case he wonders, Here, I give him my Holy Spirit as a pledge and a deal until that wonderful day of redemption.
God determines when a person got or gets saved, not us..
F
It applies to anyone who tastes of the grace of God and rejects it. In this case the ones rejecting it were Jews who rejected it in favor of going back to the law. We see the same thing happening today with the Hebrew Roots Movement and others who claim that God's grace is nice, but that it's not enough, that we need to be "Torah observant".
There is a logic problem here. If you hold it is Jesus who chooses, does, maintains and pulls
people through without the believers involvement and you accept people can appear saved
but not actually, have all the outward appearance but be failed, then there is no real hope
or security.
This is going to the "will of God" argument, it is up to God to decide and there are no criteria
over which we can guage faith or non-faith.
The apostles disagreed. "We know we know God because we obey His commands", "we love
one another"
This is why they talked about fruit being reassurance of a good work done in us.
It makes me wonder. The group who are arguing for another faith so strongly appear not be
be overwhelming in love from their hearts. Now I can testify, strangely in my life it was this
very thing, love, as the cornerstone of the gospel, not intellectual argument or signs of power
that really matter, it is this one thing we find so hard, love.
And here on cc it was this as my first sharing point, and strangely it was some people found so
hard to accept.
So God will always choose, but He says plainly why and what he chooses, righteousness and love.
I sincerely hope you agree with me, because this is what I read from Paul, Jesus and the rest.
What gift, or thing that is eternal, love
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
1 Cor 13:13
people through without the believers involvement and you accept people can appear saved
but not actually, have all the outward appearance but be failed, then there is no real hope
or security.
This is going to the "will of God" argument, it is up to God to decide and there are no criteria
over which we can guage faith or non-faith.
The apostles disagreed. "We know we know God because we obey His commands", "we love
one another"
This is why they talked about fruit being reassurance of a good work done in us.
It makes me wonder. The group who are arguing for another faith so strongly appear not be
be overwhelming in love from their hearts. Now I can testify, strangely in my life it was this
very thing, love, as the cornerstone of the gospel, not intellectual argument or signs of power
that really matter, it is this one thing we find so hard, love.
And here on cc it was this as my first sharing point, and strangely it was some people found so
hard to accept.
So God will always choose, but He says plainly why and what he chooses, righteousness and love.
I sincerely hope you agree with me, because this is what I read from Paul, Jesus and the rest.
What gift, or thing that is eternal, love
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
1 Cor 13:13
From my post (#90)...
The subject is spiritual immaturity
......
Chapter 5:12-14: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
V1-3: "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits"
After this comes verse 4 in my quote: "For it is impossible..." (the "for" being a conclusion)
Connection here between elementary principles, the going on and on again about the foundation of repentance...... and then it goes on to confirm an elementary principle that I mentioned in my quote - the impossibility of being saved, unsaved, then saved again (impossible to be renewed again when already renewed) - this is elementary!!
Can anyone else see all of this. He is talking to believers here.
So yes - eternal security is an elementary principle!!!!!!!!
The subject is spiritual immaturity
......Chapter 5:12-14: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
V1-3: "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits"
After this comes verse 4 in my quote: "For it is impossible..." (the "for" being a conclusion)
Connection here between elementary principles, the going on and on again about the foundation of repentance...... and then it goes on to confirm an elementary principle that I mentioned in my quote - the impossibility of being saved, unsaved, then saved again (impossible to be renewed again when already renewed) - this is elementary!!
Can anyone else see all of this. He is talking to believers here.
So yes - eternal security is an elementary principle!!!!!!!!
Judas was referred to as the 'man of sin'. Only two in the scriptures are called this - Judas and the future antichrist. So how can you believe that Judas, the man of sin, was ever a believer? Clearly he was never a true believer, his loyalty was with Rome. The future antichrist will not be a true believer either, even though (perhaps?) he may appear to be.
As for the unforgivable sin.... dying without Jesus is unforgivable, so this must be the one mentioned. Scripture says there is only one unforgivable sin, not two. So there cannot be a second.
As for the unforgivable sin.... dying without Jesus is unforgivable, so this must be the one mentioned. Scripture says there is only one unforgivable sin, not two. So there cannot be a second.
Ephesians 1:3-14:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory"
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory"
U
Thank you Katy-follower for coming back and restating what this scripture is teaching in such a clear manner
I had to read this scripture many times to really see its beautiful truth and finally through guidance of the Holy Spirit the veil lifted and it was so clear.
Ask God to reveal this verse to you, you will be blessed!
I had to read this scripture many times to really see its beautiful truth and finally through guidance of the Holy Spirit the veil lifted and it was so clear.
Ask God to reveal this verse to you, you will be blessed!
From my post (#90)...
The subject is spiritual immaturity......
Chapter 5:12-14: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
V1-3: "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits"
After this comes verse 4 in my quote: "For it is impossible..." (the "for" being a conclusion)
Connection here between elementary principles, the going on and on again about the foundation of repentance...... and then it goes on to confirm an elementary principle that I mentioned in my quote - the impossibility of being saved, unsaved, then saved again (impossible to be renewed again when already renewed) - this is elementary!!
Can anyone else see all of this. He is talking to believers here.
So yes - eternal security is an elementary principle!!!!!!!!
The subject is spiritual immaturity
......Chapter 5:12-14: "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
V1-3: "Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits"
After this comes verse 4 in my quote: "For it is impossible..." (the "for" being a conclusion)
Connection here between elementary principles, the going on and on again about the foundation of repentance...... and then it goes on to confirm an elementary principle that I mentioned in my quote - the impossibility of being saved, unsaved, then saved again (impossible to be renewed again when already renewed) - this is elementary!!
Can anyone else see all of this. He is talking to believers here.
So yes - eternal security is an elementary principle!!!!!!!!
Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Those who trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ after having heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, were then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.
From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:
Seal - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Those who trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ after having heard the word of truth, the gospel of salvation, were then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.
From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:
Seal - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia