Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...
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Barking up the wrong tree and my statement stands......see you made my point for me....you all DO THE SAME THING...argue one can lose it to those who trust JESUS and eternal security, but no way.....you have never lost it....surprised you miss that fallacy and hypocrisy.....
Here is how it goes...we believe eternal security....NO YOUR WRONG YOU CAN LOSE IT....here are the proof pudding, out of context verses that prove it.....oh...but they don't apply to us because we are so righteous and faithful we never lose it or have lost it.....what a sad tragic joke!
Here is how it goes...we believe eternal security....NO YOUR WRONG YOU CAN LOSE IT....here are the proof pudding, out of context verses that prove it.....oh...but they don't apply to us because we are so righteous and faithful we never lose it or have lost it.....what a sad tragic joke!
Hi Eternal: Maybe I misunderstood you. A person can experience the love from a person who is not even saved, however that is not the Spirit of God, that is just love between humans. You do understand that it is not possible for a non believer to experience the Spirit of God unless it is conviction to be saved.
E
I am talking about a person who is blessed by association of hanging out with believers.
The HOLY SPIRIT blesses the believers to excess in love. and the believers shares that blessing and love with the unbeliever.
it is what draws people to Christ. when they experience his love through others believers.
If God loves me in excess. And I take that love and love an unbeliever, they have experienced Gods love through me.
This argument that people who say that salvation can be lost are wrong because they are still Christians and so have not lost their salvation is totally illogical.. to the extreme..
Saying that one can fall away from the truth and lose their salvation is not saying that everyone who has salvation will fall away and lose their salvation..
A Christian who believes the Bible and believes that people can lose their salvation does not believe it is so because they have observed someone else lose their salvation or that they have personally lost their salvation.. They believe it because of the scriptures that convince them that a person can discard and renounce the salvation they ones believed and trusted in..
2 Peter 2: KJV
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness,those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Saying that one can fall away from the truth and lose their salvation is not saying that everyone who has salvation will fall away and lose their salvation..
A Christian who believes the Bible and believes that people can lose their salvation does not believe it is so because they have observed someone else lose their salvation or that they have personally lost their salvation.. They believe it because of the scriptures that convince them that a person can discard and renounce the salvation they ones believed and trusted in..
2 Peter 2: KJV
17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. 18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness,those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
I have done my best to be a good friend and brother to you. I appreciate your zeal. I seem to offend you at every turn. It is not intentional. Please don't let this turn to bitterness against us. We are not perfectionist. We are not legalists. You and I have much more in common than we do in difference. Reasoning and discussion does not need to devolve into warfare.
E
well I never used that argument,
I just stated that someone had a point, and they do.
ps. A dog returns to his vomit, because he is a dog..You can teach a dog to do tricks, but he will always return to his vomit.
He was never made a new creature. A new creation in christ is no longer a dog.. so he would never return to his vomit.
Using that to prove one can lose salvation is more illogical. then saying that no person who claims salvation can be lost has ever admitted to losing salvation.
Where all dogs before we accept the LORD Jesus as our Redeemer.. When we believe Jesus and the Way of salvation He has revealed then we have escaped the comdemnation that is upon all vomit licking dogs.... Peter made it clear that it has happened unto them.. That dogs saved by the way of Rightiousness through the LORD Jesus Christ have turned away from it and gone back to their vomit..
We have to keep 2 aspects in mind when interpreting scriptures on salvation.
Works-based believers see the warning scriptures and "interpret" those to mean that one loses salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity. ( and we should be admonished to listen to these warning scriptures )
This type of mindset does not know the love and grace of God for people and thus they develop a fear based religion of works "to keep one saved".
1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.
Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.
Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.
Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - like we lose our righteousness. We don't have our "own" righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness.
I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."
There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.
The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.
Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.
The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.
We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.
Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.
If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".
There is eternal salvation and there is a manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.
Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.
Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.
We are safe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we can trust Him to do what He has He will do and has already done for us.
We have a great salvation in Him! We can trust the Lord when He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you!"
The proper teaching of the gospel of Christ and what He has already done for us will provide the "nutrients" for the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness to manifest His life in and through us - and yes this also shows in our behavior.
As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him - and it is all by grace through faith. Col. 2:6
His love which is in us will come forth and bear much fruit. The behavior is a "fruit of salvation" - it does not produce salvation. Only Christ Himself is our true salvation - it is "in Him".
Works-based believers see the warning scriptures and "interpret" those to mean that one loses salvation as in going to be with the Lord for eternity. ( and we should be admonished to listen to these warning scriptures )
This type of mindset does not know the love and grace of God for people and thus they develop a fear based religion of works "to keep one saved".
1 John 4:18-19 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.
Salvation manifests itself here in this earth and also for going to be with the Lord because we are in Christ - sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believed as Paul said in Eph. 1:13 ; 4:30.
Start shooting heroin in your arms today and you will NOT experience salvation - that is life and wholeness on this earth for very long.
Confuse the 2 and we will come up with all kinds of works-based salvationists views - like we lose our righteousness. We don't have our "own" righteousness. Christ Himself is our righteousness.
I believe we have to differentiate between "going to heaven to be with the Lord " salvation and - "being saved from the things that can destroy us here while being on this earth."
There are different manifestations of salvation in Christ - one is going to be with the Lord - the other is concerning the things of this life on earth.
The promised land is a type of being in Christ now - it is not a type of heaven as there will be no giants to fight in heaven.
Moses did not get to rest in what God had already provided for the Israelites - but yet Moses is with God now.
The promised land is a type of living here on this earth by believing in the promises of God. Only Caleb and Joshua were the ones that got to experience the promises of God in the promised land because they believed in what God had said.
We can inherit now in this life some things that are of the kingdom of God because the kingdom of God is within us...however if we don't have our minds renewed to the truth in Christ ( which includes living by the Spirit within us ) - we can not experience the things of the kingdom that are available to us believers.
Scripture uses the same Greek word - " salvation, saved " = wholeness, preservation, keep safe, deliverance, make well - for both being saved from things in this life and for going to be with the Lord for eternity.
If we don't understand this difference we will continually be mis-applying scriptures that talk about "being saved here in this life from things" and "going to be with the Lord".
There is eternal salvation and there is a manifestation of salvation from temporal things while on this earth. Confuse the two and we end up with a mixed up message of self-effort for going to heaven and only the blood of Jesus does that.
Jesus is either our Savior for going to be in heaven with Him or we are our own savior by helping Him. One is by grace through faith-righteousness - the other is works-righteousness.
Let's just rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the things of Christ to us.
We are safe in the Lord Jesus Christ and we can trust Him to do what He has He will do and has already done for us.
We have a great salvation in Him! We can trust the Lord when He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you!"
The proper teaching of the gospel of Christ and what He has already done for us will provide the "nutrients" for the new creation in Christ which has been created in righteousness and holiness to manifest His life in and through us - and yes this also shows in our behavior.
As we have received Christ our Lord - so we walk in Him - and it is all by grace through faith. Col. 2:6
His love which is in us will come forth and bear much fruit. The behavior is a "fruit of salvation" - it does not produce salvation. Only Christ Himself is our true salvation - it is "in Him".
E
No. Peter made it clear. a dog returned to their vomit. He did not say the dog was made a new creature, then returned to being a dog.
The context of peter is false teachers.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[SUP][d][/SUP] from those who live in error. [SUP]19 [/SUP]While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[SUP][e][/SUP] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
They are false teachers. who attempt to lure people with their sin and licentiousness.
The context of peter is false teachers.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped[SUP][d][/SUP] from those who live in error. [SUP]19 [/SUP]While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. [SUP]20 [/SUP]For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[SUP][e][/SUP] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
They are false teachers. who attempt to lure people with their sin and licentiousness.
2 Peter 2:1-22 is clear in context that it is talking about false teachers and false prophets - not believer in Christ. The question should be are they really believers?
However - even "if" it is talking about a believer - no place does it say that these people are going to hell now. That is reading into the scriptures.
If a pastor of 50 years all of a sudden takes up shooting heroin in his arms tonight - he will die quickly and his last state will be worse then his first. His life will be a mess.
There is also a difference between "knowing the way of righteousness" and being in Christ and possessing His righteousness. To say that 2 Peter 2 is saying believers go to hell is a violation of all the abundance of very clear scriptures that say the complete opposite of those obscure verses.
Never let an obscure verse rob us of the abundance of very clear scriptures of what Christ has done. If an obscure verse seems to contradict the clear scriptures - it means that we are not interpreting it correctly.
However - even "if" it is talking about a believer - no place does it say that these people are going to hell now. That is reading into the scriptures.
If a pastor of 50 years all of a sudden takes up shooting heroin in his arms tonight - he will die quickly and his last state will be worse then his first. His life will be a mess.
There is also a difference between "knowing the way of righteousness" and being in Christ and possessing His righteousness. To say that 2 Peter 2 is saying believers go to hell is a violation of all the abundance of very clear scriptures that say the complete opposite of those obscure verses.
Never let an obscure verse rob us of the abundance of very clear scriptures of what Christ has done. If an obscure verse seems to contradict the clear scriptures - it means that we are not interpreting it correctly.