Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[eternally-gratefull]

what makes you think that he, myself , or others need your " help ". is anyone asking for your help?

most people who have this attitude think they have all the Biblical truths down pat. they want to lecture and condem, instead of having actual interaction.

Notice, twice now in two threads I have responded to his attack on mu sig, and twice now in two threads he has failed to even acknowledge, respond or even say a word about, yet multiple times now in two threads he has attacked me on it.

I think his silence speaks loudly, and he has thoroughly "disqualified" himself (pun intended based on last post) as a respectable, trust-able source to go for spiritual knowledge

 

[Grace777x70]

see, thats what you get when you mix sanctification with justification.

Paul talked about disqualified to teach. Not to be saved.

You are disqualified to be saved as you stand, so am I. Apart from Grace we are all disqualified. We have sinned and fall short. We still sin and fall short..

if you think you are qualified to enter heaven based on your righteousness, Your in for a rude awakening on judgment day.

I agree...when we look at 1 Cor. 9:27 "in context" it is obvious that Paul is talking about his ministry and keeping himself under control so the is not disqualified ( rejected ) from ministry.

1 Corinthians 9:17-27 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

The Father Himself qualifies us because of Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

Colossians 1:12-14 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

It's time for the unbelievers in Christ's work to "repent and believe the gospel" Just like Jesus said in Mark 1:15

 

[PeterJens]

Qualified or disqualified

We are qualified by believing in Christ and walking in His ways.
To be disqualified would be to walk in sin.

Ofcourse to another theology, disqualification is deemed as believing
you are washed clean, therefore relying on what Christ has done in your
life rather than in Christ.

You will notice the fruit of these theologies is polar opposites, one which
says you are washed clean, Holy and acceptable to Christ, and the other
says you are a wretched sinner only covered by Christ but not cleansed.

On judgement day I would much rather be a cleansed saint than a wretched
sinner still bound to sin. Not really a difficult difference to see, when laid
out. Now see which assumption Paul is making in his language.

But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.
2 Peter 1:9

Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Eph 5:25-27

 

[Chris1975]

see, thats what you get when you mix sanctification with justification.

Paul talked about disqualified to teach. Not to be saved. <no, read it again. He has to discipline and bring his body into subjection (lest he preach one gospel to others yet lives a different standard to what he teaches). It talks nothing about being disqualified to teach. Its about living what he teaches.>

You are disqualified to be saved as you stand, so am I. Apart from Grace we are all disqualified. We have sinned and fall short. <agreed> We still sin and fall short.. <now we are to live by the Spirit. And not fulfill the lusts of the flesh>

if you think you are qualified to enter heaven based on your righteousness, Your in for a rude awakening on judgment day.

[h=1]Hebrews 12:14New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [SUP]14 [/SUP]Pursue peace with all people, and holiness <sanctification>, without which no one will see the Lord:

 

[PeterJens]

Joke

Some probably cannot see these posts because I am on their ignore list.
I think this shows who really can face all opinions and who cannot,

Bless the Lord oh my soul
Oh my soul
Worship His Holy name
Sing like never before
Oh my soul
I'll worship Your Holy name

 

[Chris1975]

I agree...when we look at 1 Cor. 9:27 "in context" it is obvious that Paul is talking about his ministry and keeping himself under control so the is not disqualified ( rejected ) from ministry.

1 Corinthians 9:17-27 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] What then is my reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;
[SUP]21 [/SUP] to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
[SUP]26 [/SUP] Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
[SUP]27 [/SUP] but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

The Father Himself qualifies us because of Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

Colossians 1:12-14 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

It's time for the unbelievers in Christ's work to "repent and believe the gospel" Just like Jesus said in Mark 1:15

with appropriate emphasis.

 

[Grace777x70]

We need to take scripture in context or that text will con you. Take Hebrews 12:14 as an excellent example. Taken isolated - we dream up all sorts of man0made traditions. But it context with "other" scriptures around it - it becomes evident what is being spoken about here.

Hebrews 12:12-15 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,

[SUP]13 [/SUP] and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;

The context of this verse, Hebrews 12:13 instructs us to not walk in a manner that will cause others to stumble. Therefore, I believe this verse isn’t talking about us seeing God but rather that if we don’t act in a holy manner, no one will see God in our lives. ( we are a living epistle )
That would certainly be a true statement that is not only consistent with Hebrews 12:14 but leads perfectly into Hebrews 12:15.


Our actions don’t earn the grace of God. That wouldn’t be grace (Romans 11:6). Therefore, we don’t fall from grace by not being holy enough to earn it. Galatians 5:4 speaks of falling from grace by putting faith in our works instead of having our faith firmly placed in Christ and what He did for us. So, the way people “fail of the grace of God” is through legalism.


Hebrews 12:15 - Notice that bitterness in our lives doesn’t just hurt or poison us but many people. Again the context of this verse shows that we are supposed to walk in a manner that influences others in a positive way. If we get bitter, that bitterness will affect others.

Works-based salvationsists have used this verse to beat people with for years as we know we are sanctified forever in our inner man now and we do need to work out what is already in us in Christ in our outward behavior so that people can see the love and grace of our loving Father to them.

This has nothing to do with " becoming un-born " and not seeing the Lord ourselves and thus losing the free gift He gave us in Christ's finished work.

 

[PeterJens]

I have a thought.

If believers need Christs righteousness to cover them because God cannot be allowed
to actually see them

1. Why do they need to repent, ever, or be forgiven, because it is just Christ
2. If Jesus never changes or cleanses them what is the point of faith
3. In heaven, how can unclean sinners ever enter
4. If the cross does not cleanse the believer in reality, is this not just worldliness
5. If all sin is forgiven, for the world, then the world is saved
6. Why did Paul rebuke sin and the churches in revelation need to do anything?

I suspect it is an emptiness in peoples lives and spiritual reality they are compensating
for, and do not know the answer. Most fell away from faith and have returned to this
new faith, and decided to attack their previous holders of faith.

I have noticed this schizophrenic faith system that seems to have a faith position against
sin, but then denies it even exists, and then says it is everywhere and fools only say they
can be truly cleansed. I think consistency of positions is not their strong point lol.

 

[Ariel82]

AntiTroll post (just bumping up normal threads)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hebrews 12:14New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Pursue peace with all people, and holiness <sanctification>, without which no one will see the Lord:

Yep. Modern day Pharisee.

Dude you will not even respond to your attack on my sig.. I am done with you.

Good luck making yourself worthy for God. I will continue to get on my knees..and seek out and trust God..

 

[Chris1975]

[h=1]So much in the below verse

2 Timothy 2:15New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] [SUP]15 [/SUP]Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.



- present yourself approved (detractors will say this is works - you cannot present yourself approved)
- a worker who does not need to be ashamed (detractors will say that's works, you should be ashamed)
- rightly dividing the word of truth (how true, in light of these threads).

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So much in the below verse

2 Timothy 2:15New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.



- present yourself approved (detractors will say this is works - you cannot present yourself approved)
- a worker who does not need to be ashamed (detractors will say that's works, you should be ashamed)
- rightly dividing the word of truth (how true, in light of these threads).

it does not say pretend your righteous and worthy of Gods salvation. Or present yourself approved to enter heaven on your own good works.

It says present yourself as an approved person. Who rightly divides the word of truth

Grace people do not reject works, That is a strawman people like you and peter jeans love to through around because you have no root or foundation so you have to attack others with false truths.

Grace people do however, reject works as a means to

1. Get saved
2. Stay saved.

Paul said it best.

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHCIH WE HAVE DONE, but BY HIS MERCY. HE SAVED US!!

Good luck trying to save yourself.

IU will continue to rely on Gods mercy.

 

[gb9]

I have a thought.

If believers need Christs righteousness to cover them because God cannot be allowed
to actually see them

1. Why do they need to repent, ever, or be forgiven, because it is just Christ
2. If Jesus never changes or cleanses them what is the point of faith
3. In heaven, how can unclean sinners ever enter
4. If the cross does not cleanse the believer in reality, is this not just worldliness
5. If all sin is forgiven, for the world, then the world is saved
6. Why did Paul rebuke sin and the churches in revelation need to do anything?

I suspect it is an emptiness in peoples lives and spiritual reality they are compensating
for, and do not know the answer. Most fell away from faith and have returned to this
new faith, and decided to attack their previous holders of faith.

I have noticed this schizophrenic faith system that seems to have a faith position against
sin, but then denies it even exists, and then says it is everywhere and fools only say they
can be truly cleansed. I think consistency of positions is not their strong point lol.

this thread post # 1206 fourth paragraph-

peterjens - " in Christ through empowerment by the Holy Sprit and obedience to love working in us walking according to the Sprit , we do not sin, so therefore not under condemnation."

this thread post # 1213 first paragraph 3rd sentence-

peterjens - if we repent and resolve the sin , when and if it occurs , there is no condemnation we are pure clean and holy.

now who is schizophrenic???

 

[PeterJens]

.. I am done with you.

Translation - I will pursue you from now to eternity lol

 

[PeterJens]

this thread post # 1206 fourth paragraph-

peterjens - " in Christ through empowerment by the Holy Sprit and obedience to love working in us walking according to the Sprit , we do not sin, so therefore not under condemnation."

this thread post # 1213 first paragraph 3rd sentence-

peterjens - if we repent and resolve the sin , when and if it occurs , there is no condemnation we are pure clean and holy.

now who is schizophrenic???

This is a problem of one sentence phrases. When I say "we do not sin" I mean we have
the power to overcome sin and walk in righteousness, and are counted as clean, pure, holy.

It does not mean sin does not occur, and is not dealt with through repentance, confession
and faith, but we are in process of walking toward the walk of Christ.

This is why I am not a sinless perfectionist, or say I have arrived, but that I walk in victory
as far as His love has worked in me, in the certain knowledge He will complete this work in
my life. Amen.

This means I do not hold with total inability theology or that we are innately evil, but that
sin is rooted in separation from God in our hearts, that Christ bridges through the cross and
the indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[gb9]

This is a problem of one sentence phrases. When I say "we do not sin" I mean we have
the power to overcome sin and walk in righteousness, and are counted as clean, pure, holy.

It does not mean sin does not occur, and is not dealt with through repentance, confession
and faith, but we are in process of walking toward the walk of Christ.

This is why I am not a sinless perfectionist, or say I have arrived, but that I walk in victory
as far as His love has worked in me, in the certain knowledge He will complete this work in
my life. Amen.

This means I do not hold with total inability theology or that we are innately evil, but that
sin is rooted in separation from God in our hearts, that Christ bridges through the cross and
the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I 80% agree with this, except we have a sin nature that will not be gone in the flesh,

just say it this way, without all the hyperbole, and you might find that folks, at least in parts, agree with you.

 

[PeterJens]

it does not say pretend your righteous and worthy of Gods salvation. Or present yourself approved to enter heaven on your own good works.

I would suggest this is simply a miss-representation of a cleansed believer.
If someone has faith in the cross and repents of their sins they has become righteous
and worthy of Gods salvation, for that is our faith.

How is it so easy to miss-represent another and also claim you know Christ?
Jesus was very careful to accurately criticise peoples actual beliefs and show
where they failed, not invent a construct that they do not follow or hold to.

But then if the actual theology believed was put forward they would look
rather bad, as it would show they are in disbelief about the power of the cross.

 

[Grace777x70]

So much in the below verse

2 Timothy 2:15New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.



- present yourself approved (detractors will say this is works - you cannot present yourself approved)
- a worker who does not need to be ashamed (detractors will say that's works, you should be ashamed)
- rightly dividing the word of truth (how true, in light of these threads).

I don't believe people have any trouble with 2 Tim 2:15 - what people reject as anti-the gospel is people, saying that they must do things to create and maintain salvation and or righteousness.

That Christ rejects us "if we don't perform well enough" and that is anti-Christ in it's core belief system and a complete perversion of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

It violates the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place and it violates the true nature and character of our Father and Lord towards us.

I have to believe that people mean well when they are using the warnings and the warnings should be heeded but it's the "application" of the warnings that people get kicked out of Christ that distorts the gospel message and our view of our Father.

We don't save ourselves nor do we create our own righteousness. Christ alone is our Savior and He is our righteousness as we believe in Him and what He has already done for us - this releases His life to bear His fruit in and through us so that others in the world can see the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I would suggest this is simply a miss-representation of a cleansed believer.
If someone has faith in the cross and repents of their sins they has become righteous
and worthy of Gods salvation, for that is our faith.

How is it so easy to miss-represent another and also claim you know Christ?
Jesus was very careful to accurately criticise peoples actual beliefs and show
where they failed, not invent a construct that they do not follow or hold to.

But then if the actual theology believed was put forward they would look
rather bad, as it would show they are in disbelief about the power of the cross.

A cleansed believer is cleansed by God. Not by something he or she does. Which according to you. Is what happens.

I again refer you and your brethren to Titus 3.. It is not by your works, But By Gods mercy, He washes you, you can not wash yourself.

 

[Grace777x70]

Religion always gets the gospel backwards.

The gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection is not about laws you have to keep or do - It's about a Life that keeps you.