Hebrews 6:4-6 - not at it seems...

[PeterJens]

I would suggest this is simply a miss-representation of a cleansed believer.
If someone has faith in the cross and repents of their sins they has become righteous
and worthy of Gods salvation, for that is our faith.

How is it so easy to miss-represent another and also claim you know Christ?
Jesus was very careful to accurately criticise peoples actual beliefs and show
where they failed, not invent a construct that they do not follow or hold to.

But then if the actual theology believed was put forward they would look
rather bad, as it would show they are in disbelief about the power of the cross.

A cleansed believer is cleansed by God. Not by something he or she does. Which according to you. Is what happens.

God is doing the cleansing. People cannot cleanse themselves, and I have not claimed
they do. We can walk and not defile ourselves. People defile their purity.

Now it would be nice if simple points would be taken on board and quoted.
Now Paul says that we should purify ourselves

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
2 Cor 7:1

I think Paul means to get rid of behaviour that defiles us, avoid things
that lead us into sin. Once defiled it is only the Holy Spirit and the cross
that purifies us through repentance.

But this is an area I am unclear in my mind what Paul is getting at.
But Amen to the fact he supports being pure and Holy.

 

[Chris1975]

God is doing the cleansing. People cannot cleanse themselves, and I have not claimed
they do. We can walk and not defile ourselves. People defile their purity.

Now it would be nice if simple points would be taken on board and quoted.
Now Paul says that we should purify ourselves

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
2 Cor 7:1

I think Paul means to get rid of behaviour that defiles us, avoid things
that lead us into sin. Once defiled it is only the Holy Spirit and the cross
that purifies us through repentance.

But this is an area I am unclear in my mind what Paul is getting at.
But Amen to the fact he supports being pure and Holy.

Anyone care to comment on red verse above?

 

[Chris1975]

Hebrews 6
6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

Any comments from detractors on "going on to perfection" from the standpoint that there is nothing more to be done?

 

[Grace777x70]

I love John 13:1-10 and how we need our daily walk cleansed by the washing of the water of the word. I watched a talk on this subject and it had an illustration of us being like a gold bar which had mud on it helped me to understand some things.

The gold bar still had it’s real value in it even though it had mud on it. Gold in the Bible speaks of God’s righteousness which of course we know He gave to us – we became the righteousness of God in Christ.

It goes on to show how the washing of the water of God’s word about righteousness and grace cleans off the mud from the gold bar which represents us. The mud is the belief system of the world and the traditions of men that can be in our church teachings.

This can take all kinds of forms from immorality to malice and slander to idolatry - all of which are ways the flesh uses to find meaning and life - there is good flesh and bad flesh - but it's still flesh.

As far as 2 Cor. 7:1 - "context" is very key here. We need to be reading the scriptures that are prior to 2 Cor. 7:1 which is why it starts out with "therefore"...when you see that - always see what it is "there for".

We need to see the verse before 2 Cor. 7:1 to get the context.

2 Corinthians 7:1 always confused me a bit when it says to cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How can we cleanse defilement in our spirit when we are righteous because of our new creation in Christ?

I see this verse as us believing who we are in Christ now as the verse before in 2 Corinthians 6:18 says we are sons to our Father. The verses before verse 18 talk about being “separate” from the world – like what partnership does righteousness have with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness..etc. ( verses 14-16 )

The world's belief system ( which a lot of the religious minded modern day church have adopted ) is defiling to us which is why we are not to "partake" with them in this belief system.

Cleansing the defilement from our flesh is obvious but of the spirit confused me. I think this verse is referring to how we view ourselves when defilement comes as when we viewed the mud on the gold bar. This defilement distorts our view mentally of our true selves ( the word spirit has been used in the N. T. to convey our thinking or mindset ) which we are in Christ because we are His righteousness now.

When we believe ( through the washing of the word of righteousness or hearing the word of Christ ) – we view who we really are in Christ. In this “beholding” of ourselves in Christ as in a mirror – we “become” or manifest outwardly who we really are.

Perfecting holiness in the fear of God means to me = fulfilling or accomplishing ( meaning for perfecting in greek ) our “otherness ” ( which holy really means “other” ) or separateness outwardly in the fear of God. ( Fear of God to me is realizing the awesomeness of God in His goodness ).

 

[Chris1975]

As far as 2 Cor. 7:1 - "context" is very key here. We need to be reading the scriptures that are prior to 2 Cor. 7:1 which is why it starts out with "therefore"...when you see that - always see what it is "there for".

We need to see the verse before 2 Cor. 7:1 to get the context.

2 Corinthians 7:1 always confused me a bit when it says to cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. How can we cleanse defilement in our spirit when we are righteous because of our new creation in Christ?

I see this verse as us believing who we are in Christ now as the verse before in 2 Corinthians 6:18 says we are sons to our Father. The verses before verse 18 talk about being “separate” from the world – like what partnership does righteousness have with lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness..etc. ( verses 14-16 )

2 Corinthians 6
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”[SUP][e]
[/SUP]
[h=1]2 Corinthians 7New King James Version (NKJV)[/h] 1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

[SUP]
Then it goes on
[/SUP]


[SUP]8 [/SUP]For even if I made you sorry with my letter <the first Corinthian letter>, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance <church still needs to repent>. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation <herein lies the essence of what we are talking about. There is no salvation apart from repentance. Yet these people were already saved. So ongoing repentance from sin and dead works is a continual requirement for the church>, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Religion always gets the gospel backwards.

The gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection is not about laws you have to keep or do - It's about a Life that keeps you.

thats because religion is self focused, it says Hey good look at men, I am a good person. I love you, Look at all I have done. A

And not God focused.

 

[Grace777x70]

2 Corinthians 6
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”[SUP][e]
[/SUP]
2 Corinthians 7New King James Version (NKJV)

1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

[SUP]
Then it goes on
[/SUP]


[SUP]8 [/SUP]For even if I made you sorry with my letter <the first Corinthian letter>, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance <church still needs to repent>. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation <herein lies the essence of what we are talking about. There is no salvation apart from repentance. Yet these people were already saved. So ongoing repentance from sin and dead works is a continual requirement for the church>, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

2 Corinthians 7:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.


Yes..there are 2 different kinds of sorrow.

The world's way is "I'm sorry this is happening to me". God's sorrow sees things for what they really are and we are horrified because that is not who we are in Christ and it is against our true nature.

God's way is that He gives grace for us to believe what He says is true about Christ and ourselves. This releases His life in us to change the way we think towards a subject. ( repentance )

This type of sorrow brings salvation with it ( I know those that think they lose their salvation think of salvation only as in going to heaven or hell but it is talking about experiencing life here on earth) - salvation means "wholeness. soundness, health, safe".

For example if someone was a drug addict and was shooting heroin in their arms - they are not experiencing salvation/life - however if they view this through Christ and who they are now in Christ - this will give them the grace to stop and thus experience the quality of life in this earth that God has for them which is another manifestation of salvation.

For it is God who is at work in us both to give us the desire and the capability to do His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13

Right believing will produce right thinking which in turn produces right living. But it is all be grace through faith in Christ's work alone.

As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6

 

[Chris1975]

[SUP]1 Corinthians 6 (written to the Church)

8 [/SUP]No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! [SUP]9 [/SUP]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? <see the link? He is saying that Christian brothers are doing this to each other. And saying that this behaviour cannot inherit the kingdom of God> Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[SUP][a][/SUP] nor sodomites, [SUP]10 [/SUP]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And such were some of you. <reminding them of who they were before Christ. Yet he sees them falling into the same things again> But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. <reminding them of who they are in Christ. They can no longer do these things see verse 9> [h=3]Glorify God in Body and Spirit[/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. [SUP]14 [/SUP]And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For “the two,” He says, “shall become one flesh.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]17 [/SUP]But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? [SUP]20 [/SUP]For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[SUP][c][/SUP] and in your spirit, which are God’s.

1 Corinthians 3

[SUP]16 [/SUP]Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? [SUP]17 [/SUP]If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

 

[Chris1975]

2 Corinthians 7:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.


Yes..there are 2 different kinds of sorrow.

The world's way is "I'm sorry this is happening to me". God's sorrow sees things for what they really are and we are horrified because that is not who we are in Christ and it is against our true nature.

God's way is that He gives grace for us to believe what He says is true about Christ and ourselves. This releases His life in us to change the way we think towards a subject. ( repentance )

This type of sorrow brings salvation with it ( I know those that think they lose their salvation think of salvation only as in going to heaven or hell but it is talking about experiencing life here on earth) - salvation means "wholeness. soundness, health, safe".

For example if someone was a drug addict and was shooting heroin in their arms - they are not experiencing salvation/life - however if they view this through Christ and who they are now in Christ - this will give them the grace to stop and thus experience the quality of life in this earth that God has for them which is another manifestation of salvation.

For it is God who is at work in us both to give us the desire and the capability to do His good pleasure. Phil. 2:13

Right believing will produce right thinking which in turn produces right living. But it is all be grace through faith in Christ's work alone.

As we have received Christ - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6

What? Can you provide any scripture supporting that salvation means here/now on earth? The highlighted section in red.
This looks to be an attempt to change the meaning of this verse.

 

[Grace777x70]

thats because religion is self focused, it says Hey good look at men, I am a good person. I love you, Look at all I have done. A

And not God focused.

Yes...it is important for them to create and maintain their own righteousness and they do that by what they do or don't do. Religion always gets the cart before the horse and gets the things of God backwards.

They try to establish their own righteousness instead of by faith receiving Christ's righteousness which is given as a gift.

They say that good works keeps them saved and if you don't do good works like they are doing - then you are not saved.

They say "Don't do the works of the flesh and you'll be walking by the spirit." God says "Walk by the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires."

Religion always gets the gospel backwards. It's a major deception in these last days and it has the "appearance" of good but in the end it's the flesh trying to clean up the flesh with a behavior modification program and in doing so - they are actually denying the finished work of our Lord and Master.

 

[Grace777x70]

What? Can you provide any scripture supporting that salvation means here/now on earth? The highlighted section in red.
This looks to be an attempt to change the meaning of this verse.

There are loads of scripture that speak of salvation in terms other then going to heaven when you die. That is "speaking of things to do with this life while on this earth".

First of all - salvation or saved the verb means this.

4834. [FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]σῴζω[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]sōzō[/FONT] verb

Save, keep safe, preserve, rescue, make well.

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Sigma-Omega.

Here is the same Greek word being used to show healing/made well, saved in the woman's body - done in this life.

Matthew 9:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.

Here is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself using the Greek word "to be saved" in reference to something happening on this earth. "made thee whole"

Matthew 9:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour.

Here is another one of those telling Jesus to "Save thyself" while hanging on the cross - this was to do with this life now He was in at the time.

Matthew 27:40 (KJV)
[SUP]40 [/SUP] And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.


Here is another one showing "salvation- wholeness, being kept safe" is to do with this earth as well as going to be with the Lord when we die.

James 5:15 (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And the prayer of faith shall savethe sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.


I could be here all day showing that "salvation in this life and earth is often talked about". - but I will stop with this one as there are around 70 of them like this - all showing various forms of "being saved or made well or kept safe from things" while on this earth.

Mark 5:23 (KJV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And besought him greatly, saying, My little daughter lieth at the point of death: I pray thee, come and lay thy hands on her, that she may be healed; and she shall live.

 

[Grace777x70]

1 Corinthians 3:12-17 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,

[SUP]13 [/SUP] each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.

[SUP]14 [/SUP] If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

[SUP]15 [/SUP] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

[SUP]17 [/SUP] If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.


It must be remembered that in context, Paul was speaking about ministers and whether or not they were building up God’s church with the proper teaching (see 1 Corinthians 3:10).

Therefore, Paul’s teaching here about defiling the temple of God is not speaking specifically to individuals doing something to defile themselves, but it is rather a warning against anyone defiling the church with wrong teaching.

This would include Paul and Apollos (1 Corinthians 3:5-6), but it also would refer back to those individuals whom Paul rebuked in the first chapter for causing division in the body at Corinth.

This is a warning especially for ministers, that they had better make sure they are speaking God’s Word for they will have to give an account to God.

 

[Chris1975]

There are loads of scripture that speak of salvation in terms other then going to heaven when you die. That is "speaking of things to do with this life while on this earth".

Yet the context of this salvation is very clear:

2 Corinthians 7 v8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For even if I made you sorry with my letter (which letter? the 1 Corinthians letter), I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while.

And what was discussed in this letter in terms of the rebuke to the church?

1 Corinthians 6
[SUP]8 [/SUP]No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! [SUP]9 [/SUP]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[SUP][a][/SUP] nor sodomites, [SUP]10 [/SUP]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

So there is the context linking the two letters.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is an interesting commentary on the word "destroy" and it's relation to God's temple which I believe sheds more light on these verse in 1 Cor. 3. Unfortunately some I believe well meaning ministers have used this verse to beat the sheep for years and hold them in terror and distort the way we view our loving Father because of them "mis-applying it".

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.



Remember that Paul said those who were guilty of using the wrong building materials (works of the flesh - see note 3 at 1 Corinthians 3:13) would suffer loss, but they themselves would be saved (see note 6 at 1 Corinthians 3:15). Therefore, Paul was not speaking of utter destruction when he used the word “destroy.”

The Greek word that was translated “destroy” here is “PHTHEIRO.” It was only used in seven scriptures in the New Testament, and six of those times, it was translated “corrupt” or “corrupted” (1 Corinthians 15:33; 2 Corinthians 7:2, 11:3; Ephesians 4:22; Jude 10; and Revelation 19:2).

The only two other translations are here in 1 Corinthians 3:17. This same Greek word that was translated “destroy” was also translated “defile” here.

This is, no doubt, an allusion to the method of conduct in the physical temple at Jerusalem. There were very strict laws governing things that would defile the temple (Leviticus 15:31, 20:3; Numbers 19:20; Ezekiel 5:11, and 23:38-39). A classic scriptural example of this is when Paul was accused of letting a Gentile enter the temple (Acts 21:27-31). The Jews sought to kill Paul for this defiling of God’s temple.

Paul was saying that in the same way the Jews would not allow the physical temple in Jerusalem to be defiled, so should they have recognized that God will not allow His spiritual temple in people’s hearts to be defiled.This is not speaking of God totally damning someone who defiles the temple of God.


Andrew Wommack's Living Commentary

Be careful you who are teachers to build on Christ's work alone. Jesus said to "feed the sheep - not beat the sheep".

 

[Grace777x70]

Yet the context of this salvation is very clear:

2 Corinthians 7 v8
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For even if I made you sorry with my letter (which letter? the 1 Corinthians letter), I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while.

And what was discussed in this letter in terms of the rebuke to the church?

1 Corinthians 6
[SUP]8 [/SUP]No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! [SUP]9 [/SUP]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[SUP][a][/SUP] nor sodomites, [SUP]10 [/SUP]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

So there is the context linking the two letters.

Actually there is a letter that was lost that was first sent to the Corinthians so there are at least 3 letters to them...maybe more.

Again - you are failing to take the context in. Keep reading and go on to verse 11. First of all - the lists in 1 Cor. 6:8-10 are descriptions of unbelievers. Then in verse 11 - Paul describes "them" - those that have Christ in them.

1 Corinthians 6:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

This verse describes the believer in Christ - who they truly are in the new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.

You were sanctified and you are justified ( declared to be righteous ) are in the Greek Aorist indicative passive.

This means a one time even that remains in effect as a done deal in the past. It is a passive voice which means - they didn't do it to themselves - the Holy Spirit did it to them.

Notice - Paul didn't say "You are all unsaved now and going to hell".

We have a great salvation in our Lord Jesus Christ. It's time for all of us to repent and believe the gospel just like Jesus has told us all to do in Mark 1:15

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes...it is important for them to create and maintain their own righteousness and they do that by what they do or don't do. Religion always gets the cart before the horse and gets the things of God backwards.

They try to establish their own righteousness instead of by faith receiving Christ's righteousness which is given as a gift.

They say that good works keeps them saved and if you don't do good works like they are doing - then you are not saved.

They say "Don't do the works of the flesh and you'll be walking by the spirit." God says "Walk by the spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh to do "it's" desires."

Religion always gets the gospel backwards. It's a major deception in these last days and it has the "appearance" of good but in the end it's the flesh trying to clean up the flesh with a behavior modification program and in doing so - they are actually denying the finished work of our Lord and Master.

they are easy to find. Does not take long to talk to one and see right through their fake humility.

The problem is they are so off, they can not even see the flaws even when it is brought to them. Take Chris here.. 2 times in 3 threads he tried to attack me on my signature, and yet 3 times I showed him how wrong he was, Yet although we know he read it (he responded to everything thing else) he never replied to the response to his attack.

An honest sincere person, even if they are wrong, does not have to hide and not respond to questions that expose them. They at lease repent and admit error..

 

[Grace777x70]

they are easy to find. Does not take long to talk to one and see right through their fake humility.

The problem is they are so off, they can not even see the flaws even when it is brought to them. Take Chris here.. 2 times in 3 threads he tried to attack me on my signature, and yet 3 times I showed him how wrong he was, Yet although we know he read it (he responded to everything thing else) he never replied to the response to his attack.

An honest sincere person, even if they are wrong, does not have to hide and not respond to questions that expose them. They at lease repent and admit error..

Well, it's easy for all of us to get the flesh activated. I have to believe that they are sincere and the warnings are to be heeded as we can become ship-wrecked in this life by trying to live by the flesh - in any of it's forms. They all bring destruction in this life in some form.

The problem is - without the firm foundation being built on Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection - we can with the warning scriptures do more harm then good because we have not had the proper foundation in Christ's work built first.

Let's build on Christ Himself first - then the warning scriptures can do their good work and help us as we learn to walk by the spirit.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

1 Corinthians 9
[SUP]27 [/SUP]But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Paul had to exercise this, lest he become disqualified. You don't think it applies to you?

Paul was not speaking of becoming disqualified from salvation.

Paul was speaking of attaining a crown:


1 Corinthians 9:

24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.


When we stand before the bēma, crowns will be given to believers ---


1 Cor 9:25 – incorruptible crown.

2 Tim 4:8 – crown of righteousness.

1 The 2:19 – crown of rejoicing.

James 1:12 – crown of life.

1 Peter 5:4 – crown of glory.


When 1 Cor 3:14-15 speaks of the believer receiving a reward or suffering loss (even though the believer him/herself is saved), we either receive a crown as a reward or it is the crown which is lost.

Please note: Salvation is not lost.

 

[mailmandan]

Believing includes obedience.

Or put another way:

Obedience without believing = no salvation
Believing without obedience = no salvation
Believing with obedience = salvation

So you admit that you teach we are saved through faith + obedience/works? Believing = salvation (Luke 8:12; John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:33-28; 4:5 etc..) and genuine believing results in producing works of obedience. Believers produce works of obedience BECAUSE they are saved and not to become saved. You seem to have this backwards.

 

[mailmandan]

If he shrinks back, or if he draws back.......means they were once there.....

They were not once there because they DID NOT believe to the saving of the soul. They may have been exposed to the truth, yet they chose to draw back to perdition and failed to believe to the saving of the soul. As we see in Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" (after receiving the knowledge of the truth/still at a cross road) in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are been born of God - (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

But we (referring to the ones who overcome) hold the faith to the preserving of the soul.

Descriptive of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Saving belief perseveres and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and draws back to perdition. As we see in Hebrews 12:15 of those who fall short of the grace of God (NKJV); comes short of the grace of God (NAS); fails to obtain the grace of God (ESV).

So drawing back/shrinking back from the faith CANNOT preserve the soul.

They did not shrink back from saving faith because they did not BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL. Those who draw back fall short of the grace of God.

Only if you keep the faith to the end.

Which demonstrates that faith was firmly rooted and established from the start.

And that's what this passage is saying.

You are twisting the passage to teach a loss of salvation, in which the Bible NOWHERE uses the words, "lost salvation."