Hello I think I have a problem about doctrine.

Evmur · Mar 11, 2023

I'm not very active here I don't know what various believers here believe. I don't mind differences in the jots and tittles, such as dunking versus sprinkling, the various eschatologies for the most part, who reads which Bible for the most part, and I don't divide with believers about some of the heavier things such as the preservation of the saints. But what does bug me is when rightness-with-God through works creeps in to teachings. So I really hope I don't offend any reader's sensibilities, and I will refuse to joust with anyone over this, but I must ask about Joyce Meyer. It turns out that influential people in my church follow her. To me the wellspring of her preaching flows from her belief that God blessed Abraham because of Abraham's obedience, and spins it out to mean that for every believer who is in want, it is essentially a matter of lack of obedience and we better get our acts straight before God can bless us. Please let me state the way I see this: before Abraham obeyed, God told him to leave his people and his land and go to a strange Land where God will bless him and multiply him into many nations. Then, when Abraham's hand was raised and about to come down, God restrained him, provided a sacrifice, and continued to keep his promises to Abraham. Whenever I think deeply enough about that I just melt because it's a story about me and how God unilaterally moved me out of the world into a new place of various kinds of richness and peace and a certain knowledge that God will never leave me nor forsake me not even through the death of my body, which by the way is dying and in pain, and I see no conditions placed on that promise. I'm still on the precipice when it comes to the question of whether, when God called me, (and he did, one day 35 yrs ago while I was in a 2 1/2 hour commute, through radio ministries), whether I obeyed His call by my own human will or I was drawn by God's irresistible grace. It sure seems like I responded immediately to His grace snd the presence of His Person.
Actually I tend to think it may be an improper question and only God really knows what happens right there. So to finish, maybe some people can please advise me on what to do about this discovery of possible works related righteousness in dome of the main thinkers in my church? I do know that kind words are better than wrath, and that no one is unwillingly taught. At least I've learned that by now. TY.

My response is to say that salvation is totally free by grace through faith [which also is given to us] it is entirely of God and nothing of us.

Blessing and discipleship depends upon obedience.

You cain't lose salvation but you sure as can miss out or lose the blessings thereof. As disciples we can go astray, fall from grace ... we must remedy that.

Joyce Meyer is alright but she is a bit grumpy isn't she. She is all look at me, I had it tough, it was hard for me so get on with it.

That is the way of ALL faith teachers.

Evmur · Mar 11, 2023

Evmur said:

Further

Obedience to me is just one thing to me, it is staying on redemption ground. Stay at the cross. There we surrender our very selves INCLUDING OUR WILL to the Lordship of Christ

90% of christians follow up their salvation with discipleship class or they follow one teacher or another and they learn all about "freewill" and how they must choose and decide .... that's how we got into trouble in the first place. Because our will is NOT free it is in bondage.

What we need is not to choose or decide but to WAIT UPON GOD for Him to reveal HIS good and perfect will for us, and He will, it is His good pleasure to.

Freewill faith teaching is deadly.

Evmur · Mar 11, 2023

cv5 said:

MacArthur is NOT a rigid hard-core Calvinist. I should know.....I have listened to literally THOUSANDS of hours of his sermons.
He ALWAYS states (and has stated consistently) that the Bible is clear in saying that man responsibly to hear the gospel and Gods election are BOTH delineated in no uncertain terms.

He also says that he is a "leaky dispensationalist".

Unfortunately, I also think that his ministry is going (has gone!) to seed in a lot of ways. For obvious reasons. Pretty sad I can tell you. I bailed years ago and have perused other much more fruitful ministries to support.

He had a good run though......his early years up to lately were actually pretty good. His doctrine was orthodox and near to what is Biblically proper and correct IMO.

He's ok ol Mac ... apart from his stance on the gifts

Evmur · Mar 11, 2023

Locoponydirtman said:

this guy is just a clown

Evmur · Mar 11, 2023

Magenta said:

you had it right first time

Evmur · Mar 11, 2023

notonmywatch said:

Hi, Raggedcloth.

I'm definitely not a man-pleaser, so here are my thoughts on the matter.

First of all, I am DEFINITELY NOT a fan of Joyce Meyer in any way, shape, or form. I determined her to be a false teacher a long time ago, and that determination has never changed.

That said, it doesn't mean that there isn't any truth to what she said (according to your testimony here) about Abraham's obedience.

James said (even though people don't like to hear it):

James 2

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

"The scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6) "WHEN he", Abraham, "had offered Isaac his son upon the altar" or WHEN he sought to do so in OBEDIENCE to what God had commanded him to do. God had previously told Abraham that "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (Genesis 21:12) or that Jesus, who is Abraham's seed, would come through the descendancy or lineage of Isaac. God tested Abraham's faith in order to see whether or not Abraham truly believed him or had faith in what he had told him, and it wasn't until Abraham had corresponding works or actions to back up what he professed to believe in that this scripture pertaining to Abraham's righteousness by faith was fulfilled. This is a biblical truth whether anybody likes it or not. Faith without works or corresponding actions that align themselves with what we profess to believe is as DEAD as the body without the spirit is.

Let's bring this to our current day and age.

Here's a quick litmus test for all of us.

Who here believes the following?

2 Peter 3

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Do we really believe that the present "heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat", and that "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"? Do our lifestyles, or actions, or works truly align themselves with such a professed belief? Are we truly living like strangers and pilgrims who are passing the time of our sojourning here in fear, or are we so rooted and grounded in the affairs of this present evil world that we're basically useless or not meet for the master's use?

I'll leave that question for everyone here to answer for themselves.

Whatever answer anybody comes up with, faith without works or corresponding actions IS DEAD.

Not because I say so, but because God's word says so.

If our actions or our works don't align themselves with that which we profess to believe in, then our faith is no better than the faith of demons, and we'd all be wise to recognize and embrace such a biblical truth.

There is no record of any of the apostles attaining salvation by doing good deeds, once they were saved they did plenty good.

Paul got saved while in the heat of dragging innocent men and women off to prison. God knocked him off his zeal for works horse.

Nehemiah6 · Mar 11, 2023

Evmur said:

Then how could there be "free will offerings" in the Bible? I believe it was Martin Luther who came up with this false "bondage" idea. But the Bible is quite clear. Every person has a conscience, and every person can either obey "the law" which is within the conscience or disobey it. See Romans chapter 2.

The same goes for a response to the Gospel. Paul says about the unbelieving Jews that "they have not all obeyed the Gospel" (Rom 10:16). Could they all have done so? Absolutely. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. (Rom 10:21) By stretching forth His hands, did God not expect all to come to repentance? Absolutely! And does God now not COMMAND ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent? Absolutely. If the will was in bondage how could God make such an "unreasonable" demand?

Magenta · Mar 11, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Hebrews 2:14-16

Locoponydirtman · Mar 11, 2023

Evmur said:

Ad hominems come those who cant find a real argument.

Evmur · Mar 11, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

AHH good for you. You found it

One of only 3 mentions of human freewill in the entire bible, good for you.

You'd think when listening to preachers it is in every paragraph and every sentence, just like evolution is in every science book. It's BRAINWASH.

Each of the 3 mentions of freewill is in connection with offerings, in the OT. This is because God never demands back something He has freely given so it has to be a freewill offering, And in one of the mentions it actually says God moved the hearts of those who should give.

What apostle ever wrote
"Thanks be unto God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ whom we have chosen by our own freewill"

It's laughable isn't it, it's awful. But it is what folks are being taught.

Everywhere it is God who chose us.

Cameron143 · Mar 11, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Just a question...
Can someone through conscience alone truly obey from an uncircumcised heart?
They obviously can observe an outward obedience and appear even as whited sepulchers. But have they truly kept the commandment if they have not kept it both inwardly and outwardly?

Evmur · Mar 11, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

Then how could there be "free will offerings" in the Bible? I believe it was Martin Luther who came up with this false "bondage" idea. But the Bible is quite clear. Every person has a conscience, and every person can either obey "the law" which is within the conscience or disobey it. See Romans chapter 2.

The same goes for a response to the Gospel. Paul says about the unbelieving Jews that "they have not all obeyed the Gospel" (Rom 10:16). Could they all have done so? Absolutely. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. (Rom 10:21) By stretching forth His hands, did God not expect all to come to repentance? Absolutely! And does God now not COMMAND ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent? Absolutely. If the will was in bondage how could God make such an "unreasonable" demand?

why do folks find it so hard to understand? their disobedience and their gainsaying held their will in bondage, if their will had been free they would have obeyed.

Magenta · Mar 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

That is a good question which many cite 1 Corinthians 2:14 to counter, but nothing goes uncontested, not even that..

1 Corinthians 2:14 + 14

Bob-Carabbio · Mar 11, 2023

Raggedcloth said:

Easy!!! YOU'RE COMPLETELY WRONG!!! NO AMOUNT OF "good works" contributes anything to your salvation. Being Born Again BY FAITH in the perfect SIN OFFERING of Jesus on the Cross, is what cleanses you form your SIN, and makes you perfect before God. nothing else counts.

THEN - Your "Works" WILL BE TESTED at Jesus' judgement seat, and in some way, your status and function in the Heavenly kingdom will be based on what you DID with what you were GIVEN (1 Cor 3:12-15). SO your "SALVATION" isn't related to your "Works", but your "Sanctification"/"Christian maturity" is related to them.

EVERYBODY Knows Romans 8:28: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

But it's Rom 8:29 that DEFINES the "Good" that all things work together for: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren".

Some of that "Good" doesn't necessarily SEEM very good, when you're being "processed" into a different form as you go through life.

In Job's case, God was after TWO things ("Leviathan" = personal pride, and "Behemoth" = Job's tendency to do things in HIS OWN strength) and the process God put Job through to bring him to repentance ( Job 42:6) was anything but pleasant.

Cameron143 · Mar 11, 2023

Magenta said:

Are you contesting my contestation?

Magenta · Mar 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Is this a contest? .

Cameron143 · Mar 11, 2023

Magenta said:

For some, unfortunately, it is.

Magenta · Mar 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

1 Corinthians 11:19

Pilgrimshope · Mar 11, 2023

Evmur said:

brother salvation is offered as a future promise by God here by this simple condition with his own words from his own risen mouth after he accomplished the work of salvation for us

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thisnis what everyone is referring to when they speak of bieng saved in the epistles and it’s who the people reading the epistles were. The apostles and disciples called to do so went out everywhere preaching the gospel and baptizing everyone in Jesus name for remission of sins , people were receiving the holy spirit everywhere just like we read of in acts God was truly pouring out his spirit freely to people who believed as Jesus promised in the gospel

then the apostles stayed a couple years then moved on those places established (see acts 20 for an example of this )

those people who believed and received the spirit formed groups in thier areas and began meeting. Later the apostles wrote letters to establish better doctrine and understandings because they would hear of issues and things they weren’t understanding and doing right. So what I mean to say is for example Ephesians is a single letter to believers like this part of the letter states

“Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

( a few excerpts of what he’s saying to then initially in this single letter addressed to those folks )

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1:1-6, 11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This in Paul’s introduction of the single letter to the believers at Ephesus , is about a promise they all had because they believed and were baptized and it’s all true every word of it’s true but he hasn’t finished telling them what he’s telling them so my point is that part doesn’t exclude or alter this part they are part of a message to the same people when he finally is getting to the concluding point of his letter his message to those same people he warning them of something that’s coming from what he’s been saying all along

in other words the whole letter is true and Paul had built up to this important point as well as the rest this dire and clear warning

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you don’t inherit the kingdom which is what the gospel is about you don’t inherit the promise of eternal
Life which Jesus promises to those who believe his word , and repent.

Amy simple Both chapter one telling of the inheritance and election and the warnings and teachings of Paul about not inheriting the inheritance in Gods kingdom of we keep serving sin are all true and part of the same complete message

what he said in one builds up to what he said in five it doesn’t eliminate it is all I mean to say it’s hard for anyone to read a whole epistle but it really is a complete letter and message for believers and tells us if we do t take this seriously now in this life we’re not going to receive what we think

I’d say you can’t lose salvation because it’s not something we actually have attained yet it’s something we believe for in the future based in the promises Jesus made to us regarding salvation and also warnings like this one

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21‬

We can’t lose salvation because it’s something we wait for in faith and faithfulness repentance and righteousness is our path imperfection surely but we have a focus and goal always to do right and good in deed and truth and we know repentance well

“so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;

and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We’re meant to be saved from the wrath coming upon the world and all souls of men who reject Christ

“and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We aren’t saved from natural death but the second death at judgement

Pilgrimshope · Mar 11, 2023

What I’m saying is this

“And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭13:11‬ ‭

“Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:14-21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Hello I think I have a problem about doctrine.

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Locoponydirtman

Guest

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member