Hell's Population Clock

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WebersHome

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Dec 9, 2014
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the dead know not any thing; Ecc 9:5
According Luke 11:31, Solomon was very wise; but Christ is wiser; and
in point of fact, of Christ it is said: "In whom are hidden all the treasures of
wisdom and knowledge." (Col 2:3)

It's also said of Christ: "He speaks God's words, for God's spirit is upon him
without measure or limit." (John 3:24)

And again: "Behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is My beloved son,
with whom I am well-pleased; listen to him!" (Matt 17:5)

Seeing as how Christ is far more qualified than Solomon; then when the two
appear to disagree about the state of the dead; I think it's smart to go with
Christ's teachings rather than Solomon's.


Pop Clock Update: 1,168 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If
the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 68,422,608
new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

/
 
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garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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According Luke 11:31, Solomon was very wise; but Christ is wiser; and
in point of fact, of Christ it is said: "In whom are hidden all the treasures of
wisdom and knowledge." (Col 2:3)

It's also said of Christ: "He speaks God's words, for God's spirit is upon him
without measure or limit." (John 3:24)

And again: "Behold, a voice out of the cloud, saying: This is My beloved son,
with whom I am well-pleased; listen to him!" (Matt 17:5)

Seeing as how Christ is far more qualified than Solomon; then when the two
appear to disagree about the state of the dead; I think it's smart to go with
Christ's teachings rather than Solomon's.


Pop Clock Update: 1,168 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If
the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 68,422,608
new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

/
If we had a private interpretation of Solomon that could be compared to the interpretation of God who single handed wrote the book of Ecclesiastics then we could make dead men that have no spirit life living Zombies like that of Catholicism. (the literalists )Their religion is based on a hope men are really not dead and can still be judged or used to build up the old.(necromancy )

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 1:19

I would suggest that we cannot pit the word of God against the word of God in order to find the spiritual understanding..

The Cadaver Synod (also called theCadaver Trial; Latin: Synodus Horrenda) is the name commonly given to the posthumous ecclesiastical trial of Pope Formosus, held in the Basilica of St. John Lateran in Rome during January 897.[1] The trial was conducted by Pope Stephen VI(sometimes called Stephen VII), who was the successor to Formosus' successor,Pope Boniface VI. Stephen accused Formosus of perjury and of having acceded to the papacy illegally. At the end of the trial, Formosus was pronounced guilty and his papacy retroactively declared null.

Dead is dead never to rise to new spirit life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
 
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WebersHome

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Dec 9, 2014
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Q: At Matt 16:18, Jesus said: "Upon this rock I will build my church; and the
gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it." What is the meaning of
that verse?

A: Basically it's saying that should one of Christ's true believing followers slip
through a crack and end up in the wrong place, they will be able to stroll
right on out of there like a tourist in Paris; perhaps guided on their journey
by a celestial being, maybe similar to Peter's experience when he escaped
jail in Acts 12:3-11.

I should point out that if any one particular church were the "my church"
that Christ spoke of in Matt 16:18, then none of its members-- not one -
would end up in hell; but I suspect that all churches, regardless of their
denominational affiliation, expect to lose a number of their followers to an
uncertain fate; which reminds me of a line from the movie
AVATAR spoken
by Colonel Miles Quaritch, played by Stephen Lang, that goes like this:

It is my job to keep you alive.
I will not succeed . . not with all of you.


Pop Clock Update: 1,175 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If
the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 68,832,675
new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

/
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Q: At Matt 16:18, Jesus said: "Upon this rock I will build my church; and the
gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it." What is the meaning of
that verse?

A: Basically it's saying that should one of Christ's true believing followers slip
through a crack and end up in the wrong place, they will be able to stroll
right on out of there like a tourist in Paris; perhaps guided on their journey
by a celestial being, maybe similar to Peter's experience when he escaped
jail in Acts 12:3-11.

I should point out that if any one particular church were the "my church"
that Christ spoke of in Matt 16:18, then none of its members-- not one -
would end up in hell; but I suspect that all churches, regardless of their
denominational affiliation, expect to lose a number of their followers to an
uncertain fate; which reminds me of a line from the movie
AVATAR spoken
by Colonel Miles Quaritch, played by Stephen Lang, that goes like this:

It is my job to keep you alive.
I will not succeed . . not with all of you.


Pop Clock Update: 1,175 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If
the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 68,832,675
new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

/
It is explicitly stated in scripture that those that have died will remain dead until the first resurrection. There have been no new arrivals that have checked into the fiery sector of Hades since December 10, 2014.

In fact, according to scripture hades is currently unoccupied. The bible also makes it clear that those that die a second death are totally burned up till there is nothing left. Their punishment is eternal separation from God, they are not tortured for eternity in flames but rather are totally obliterated. At that point the suffering ends because they will no longer exist.

It would be a cruel God who would torture someone in fire for eternity for committing just a single sin. It says in the bible that God is love and not cruel.
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
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Whether death in the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:10-15 is quick or
slow; surely either way no one wants such a fate in their future. It would be
better to avoid the lake altogether and take up residence in the new cosmos
where everyone is immortal and enjoying life to the fullest in a world where
there is neither war, nor crime, nor poverty, nor sickness.

The first death is mandatory, but not the second; there's a God-given way
for people to get out of it.

/
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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It is explicitly stated in scripture that those that have died will remain dead until the first resurrection. There have been no new arrivals that have checked into the fiery sector of Hades since December 10, 2014.
Hello Tourist,

Sheol/Hades, that place of torment where the rich man was and still is, is indeed inhabited with the all people throughout all of history, with people going there daily. It is those who were on that side of comfort where Abraham and Lazarus were that is no longer occupied, for the Lord took their spirits/souls to heaven.

According Philippians 1:22-24 and 2 Cor.5:6, to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord, and to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. Paul was torn between the two, telling the Philippians that he wanted to depart from his body so that his spirit would be in the presence of the Lord, but he said that it was more beneficial for the Philippians if he remained.

The following scripture also supports that people are accumulating in Sheol/Hades and that they will be resurrected after the millennial period to stand at the great white throne judgment:

"Then I saw a great white throne and the One who sat on it. The earth and the heavens fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. "


In fact, according to scripture hades is currently unoccupied.

Please provide that scripture that you are speaking of which states that Hades is currently unoccupied.

The bible also makes it clear that those that die a second death are totally burned up till there is nothing left.
Please also provide the scriptures which states that people are completely burned up in the lake of fire. On the contrary, scripture states that punishment in the lake of fire is everlasting, no rest day or night. Take note below of the context regarding those who worship the beast, his image and who receive his mark:

"And a third angel followed them, calling in loud a voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, he too will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Notice first of all, that the scripture states that "God's wrath" will be poured out upon them "undiluted" which means that there will be no mercy mixed in with his wrath. The word translated "torment" above is defined as "torture," and the words "no rest day or night" would infer that a person would have to be conscious and existing in order to experience torment and not having any cessation or intermission from said torment. Regarding everlasting punishment, Jesus also said the following:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"

The word "aionios" translated "Eternal" is used for both the wicked and the righteous and therefore must convey the same meaning. Since we know that eternal life means unending conscious existence in the joy of the Lord, then eternal punishment must also convey unending conscious existence in separation from the Lord. Whatever "eternal" means for the one, must carry the same meaning for the other.

Scripture teaches us that both life and death are states of conscious existence based on ones relationship to God. Those who have been reconciled to God by His Son and who will be in the joy of the Lord and inherit eternal life, is the state of life. In contrast, those who have not been reconciled to God and die in their sins, are in the state of death in their relation to God, which is separation from his presence and unending punishment. Everyone who comes into the world exists forever, life and death being two separate states of existing consciousness.

Their punishment is eternal separation from God, they are not tortured for eternity in flames but rather are totally obliterated. At that point the suffering ends because they will no longer exist.
The words "apollumi, apoleia and olethros" are the words that are usually translated as "destroy or destruction," which do not carry the meaning of "annihilation or extinction" but of complete loss of well being, complete ruin in an existing state.

Let me give you and example: Today and throughout all of history, people have committed suicide in order to be freed of whatever suffering, either mentally or physically, that they were going through while they were alive. Their thinking is that by doing so they simply fade to black and cease to exist. So you're saying that God's punishment for them would be exactly what they wanted in the first place? The lake of fire is not called "everlasting" for no reason.

No! The punishment is against an eternal, righteous and Holy God, for as king David said, "Against you, you only, have I sinned." Therefore, all sin is specifically against God and must be punished as such, which is a complete loss of well being, complete ruination of life in separation from God in the lake of fire.

It would be a cruel God who would torture someone in fire for eternity for committing just a single sin. It says in the bible that God is love and not cruel.
You are correct in that, God is love, but, he is also a God of justice and righteousness. Once a person dies in their sins, grace and mercy are no longer in operation for those who have died in their sins. You've heard that express "the judge will throw the book at you?" Well, that is exactly what will happen to those who stand before God without the shed blood of Christ covering them. Scripture states that they will give an account for every idle word that they have spoken. This is what is referring to in Rev.20:12 where the books are opened, which contain every work of sin they ever thought or performed. You are confusing God's righteous justice with cruelty.

All sin must be accounted for one way or another. For those in Christ, He was held accountable for their sins. For those who reject Christ and die in that state, they will be held accountable for their own sins.

 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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Its one of those doctrines that some revisit possibly having more confidence from the Lord? . Some change their view, others keep their view (not a salvation issue) but more of ..How can we hear God not seen?

I would offer.

Hell, the heart of the earth is a living tribulation .Just as we are informed in Jonas

Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.Jon 2:1

The same kind of living hell Christ suffered as part of the gospel . Noah in respect to the gospel to the Ninevites . Christ in respect to the sins of the whole world , Both were heard of by the one who strengthened them in order to finish the work.

We compare the spiritual not seen to the same ,or faith to faith .....in both parables.

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was "as it were" great drops of blood falling down to the ground.Luk 22:42

In the parable above the Holy Spirit uses the word "sweat" to indicate Christ at work, as if it was literal blood in respect to the pouring out of His Spirit, not seen

God who magnifies His word is subject to the authority of it .

Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

I would think because it applies to Himself he would not prove to be a merciless God .And punish some for being born into a corrupted body forever and ever and others no suffering.

In that way we are to arm ourselves with suffering knowing it is the Spirit of Christ in us working to both will and do His good pleasure. we are to suffer for doing the will not for not doing it . Christ's suffering for us allows us to repent .

Ultimately it would seem that it depends on a mixture of mercy with grace . God looked upon Abel with grace but Cain's hard remined hard as a restless wanderer, never receiving the sabbath rest of Christ, the faithful Creator.

Those who do die and the temporal corrupted spirit returns to the father will never rise to the new life on the last day. Unlike those who have freely been given the new spirit, new heart and soul that works in those who do believe. They by faith await the promise.
 

WebersHome

Senior Member
Dec 9, 2014
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I once heard of a preacher asked by a young member of his congregation
what he would have to do that's so bad he'd go in hell.

The preacher answered: You don't have to do anything exceptionally bad to
go to hell; no, just bide your time and you'll wind up there without even
trying because hell is the default.


Pop Clock Update: 1,179 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If
the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 69,066,999
new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

/
 

Deade

Senior Member
Dec 17, 2017
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And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever.
You ever think that this smoke could be filmed for a memorial, kind like the maggot that never dies.

Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. "

It says death. Not everlasting life in fire, death: you cease to be: you are gone: you die.
 
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WebersHome

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Dec 9, 2014
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Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal
life through Jesus Christ our Lord." It says death. Not everlasting life in fire
People in hell don't have everlasting life; they have creature life; which had
its beginning in the book of Genesis. Everlasting life is a divine kind of life; it
never had a beginning because God always was, He always is, and He
always will be.

Humans are part natural and part supernatural: they consist of body, soul,
and spirit (1Thes 5:23 and Heb 4:12). According to Matt 10:28; a human's
soul does not automatically expire with the demise of their body. However,
both body and soul are perishable and easily destroyed in the lake of
brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

The third element of human existence is a bit mysterious; it is not a natural
substance. According to Gen 2:7, spirit (a.k.a. the breath of life) is
supernatural. I have yet to encounter a passage in the Bible clearly,
conclusively, and without ambiguity stating that human spirit is vulnerable
to either fire or brimstone.

Solomon believed that a human's spirit returns to God upon the death of
their body (Ecc 12:7) but Solomon didn't go on to say what God does with it.

/
 
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WebersHome

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Dec 9, 2014
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Luke 16:24-26 . . Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus
so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I
am in agony in this flame. But Abraham said: Between us and you there is a
great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you
will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.

It's easy to imagine that the "great chasm" is something like the Grand
Canyon; but in reality the distance across can't be all that far otherwise
Abraham and the rich man couldn't speak to one another. It seems likely to
me that the chasm Abraham spoke of is a sort of crevasse, i.e. a bottomless
fissure just wide enough to prevent pedestrians.

Anyway, point being: I'm heaven-bound; but I'm not so sure of many of my
friends, relatives, and associates. If they fail to make the cut, I'm crossing
my fingers that there will be some way that I can contact them in the
afterlife after we've all passed on. It deeply saddens me to think there's a
possibility I might not be allowed to see any of them ever again until the day
of our final good-byes during the event planned for Rev 20:11
15.


Pop Clock Update: 1,184 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If
the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 69,359,904
new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

/
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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You ever think that this smoke could be filmed for a memorial, kind like the maggot that never dies.

Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. "

It says death. Not everlasting life in fire, death: you cease to be: you are gone: you die.
I don't believe in annihilationism, because the soul continues on, whether in Heaven or the lake of fire. And the spiritual nature can't be consumed by a physical fire.

Acts 24:15: "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust"

Believers will get glorified bodies, where we'll be just like Jesus, and the non believers will also get some type of body prepared for an eternity in the lake of fire.

(Also in Matthew 25 it says the punishment is eternal for non believers, just as believers have eternal life)
 

WebersHome

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Dec 9, 2014
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The apostle Paul expended quite a bit of time, energy, and writer's ink
persuading Christ's believing followers that it's impossible to obtain heaven
by means of compliance with the Ten Commandments. He didn't succeed;
not with everyone. People still refused to believe him even though he
claimed to have received his information straight from the horse's mouth.

Gal 1:11-13 . . For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel
which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it
from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus
Christ.

However, though it is impossible to obtain heaven by means of compliance
with the Ten Commandments, it is essential to comply with them in order to
stay in heaven; not just the Ten only, but all of God's commandments. And
one's compliance cannot be spotty, it has to be flawless.

So; what's the secret to this apparent Catch-22?

The secret is found in a promise that God made to His people back in the Old
Testament.

Ezek 36:26-27 . . I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit into you:
I will remove the heart of stone from your body and give you a tender heart;
and I will put My spirit into you. Thus I will cause you to follow My laws and
faithfully to observe My rules.

An "heart of flesh" would normally be regarded in modern Sunday school
classes as a bad thing. Here in Ezekiel, flesh is juxtaposed with stone to
indicate that God is talking about tenderness; which can be defined as
gentleness, kindness, sensitivity, and deep affection; i.e. the warm, softer
emotions.

A heart of stone is cold and dead, like those massive granite monoliths in
Yosemite Valley. They feel not the slightest pity for climbers who lose
their grip and fall. Nope, those big rocks just go on like nothing ever
happened; silent, indifferent, unconcerned, non grieving, non
compassionate, and unsympathetic; i.e. they feel nothing: nothing at all.

Bottom line: Seeing as how love is essential to proper compliance with the
Ten Commandments; then the thoughtless, the callous, and the insensitive
would be shut out of heaven forever and ever were it not for Ezek 36:26-27.

Watch as I deliberately paraphrase the following passages. Though the texts
aren't verbatim quotes from the Bible; the message the paraphrases convey
is spot-on.

"I assure you: unless hard-hearted people are born again, they can never
see the Kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

"Don't be surprised at my statement that the uncivil must undergo a birth
performed by the hand of God." (John 3:7)

Note that the birth performed by the hand of God, about which Jesus spoke,
isn't optional; it's a must.


Pop Clock Update: 1,188 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If
the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 69,594,228
new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

/
 
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Back in 1980 there was a thirteen-part series on television called "COSMOS:
A Personal Voyage" hosted by Carl Sagan.

I didn't watch the series at that time; and only recently began viewing it on
YouTube. It's my first experience with Mr. Sagan. I'd heard of him, but never
actually listened to him speak.

Well, it turns out; I really like the man. Sagan was very personable; sort of
like Mr. Rogers: he was sincere, charming, soft-spoken, and educational;
coupled with a talent for explaining difficult concepts on a layman's level.
Sagan was a perfect front man for the scientific community.

But he was an atheist. Sagan stood against beliefs that the cosmos-- all its
forms of life, matter, and energy --is the result of intelligent design.

Well; if there really is a heaven and a hell, then of course Sagan is definitely
in the wrong place; and my heart goes out to him as I can only imagine the
terrible, crushing disappointment that poor man must be feeling.

Pop Clock Update: 1,281 days have elapsed since beginning the thread. If
the figures in post #1 are within reason, then something like 75,042,261
new arrivals have checked into the fiery sector of hades since December 10,
2014.

NOTE: 7.5 million is roughly equal to the combined State populations of Texas,
California, and Washington; and more than all the people in the whole country
of Thailand.
_
 

Deade

Senior Member
Dec 17, 2017
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se
I don't believe in annihilationism, because the soul continues on, whether in Heaven or the lake of fire. And the spiritual nature can't be consumed by a physical fire.

Acts 24:15: "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust"

Believers will get glorified bodies, where we'll be just like Jesus, and the non believers will also get some type of body prepared for an eternity in the lake of fire.

(Also in Matthew 25 it says the punishment is eternal for non believers, just as believers have eternal life)
Oh quite contraire, we are not immortal. That lie has been perpetrated by the RCC. God's word says he will resurrect everyone in due time, but we are very mortal. All we have is God's promise, which is enough.

 

Deade

Senior Member
Dec 17, 2017
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Solomon believed that a human's spirit returns to God upon the death of
their body (Ecc 12:7) but Solomon didn't go on to say what God does with it.
Oh, but he does. Here are some references to the unconscious saints.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6: “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”

Psalms 6:5: “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”

Psalms 30:9: “What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?”

Psalms 115:17: “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

Isaiah 38:18: “For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.”

Psalms 88:10-12: “Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?"

Psalms 115:17: “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into
silence.”
 
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But he was an atheist. Sagan stood against beliefs that the cosmos-- all its
forms of life, matter, and energy --is the result of intelligent design.

Q: Do you think it's possible that Sagan had a change of heart prior to his
death?

A: Coming to a realization that the cosmos-- in all of its forms of life, matter,
and energy --is the product of intelligent design is the easy part. The tough
part is then deciding upon which of the many creator deities is the real
McCoy. That would have been a monumental task for a scientific mind like
Sagan's; and I honestly think he would have given up on it as something
that just simply cannot be known.
_
 

claysmithr

Senior Member
May 23, 2017
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Q: Do you think it's possible that Sagan had a change of heart prior to his
death?


A: Coming to a realization that the cosmos-- in all of its forms of life, matter,
and energy --is the product of intelligent design is the easy part. The tough
part is then deciding upon which of the many creator deities is the real
McCoy. That would have been a monumental task for a scientific mind like
Sagan's; and I honestly think he would have given up on it as something
that just simply cannot be known.
_
Not really, for example how many of these deities took human form, preached, performed miracles, turned the world upside down, took the payment for our sin, and then rose from the dead, while having the worlds most prophetic book dedicated to them?
 
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The tough part is then deciding upon which of the many creator deities is the
real McCoy.
Not really, how many of these deities took human form, preached,
performed miracles, turned the world upside down, took the payment for our
sin, and then rose from the dead, while having the worlds most prophetic
book dedicated to them?

Scientific minds like Carl Sagan's are not impressed by myths and/or
prophetic books. For them; it's all about empirical evidence. Let's face it; us
non scientists are irrational and unreasonable when it comes to religion.

"Consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to
worldly standards" (1Cor 1:26)
_
 

claysmithr

Senior Member
May 23, 2017
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Scientific minds like Carl Sagan's are not impressed by myths and/or
prophetic books. For them; it's all about empirical evidence. Let's face it; us
non scientists are irrational and unreasonable when it comes to religion.


"Consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to
worldly standards" (1Cor 1:26)
_
Yet many scientists have faith in evolution occurring over billions of years (which is not observable or testable) from nothing?

Even a child can understand the gospel, and that if something has a design, it must have a designer.

I also don't think it's very scientific to believe that SOMETHING (THE UNIVERSE) APPEARED FROM NOTHING, and scientists should at least consider that every cause has a precursor, leading one to believe that there ultimately must be one uncaused cause (God). I remember Sagan making the claim of why need God, why not just start at the Universe? However, I don't think it makes much sense that the universe created itself.

Sagan also totally discounts the paranormal, for the same reason he discounts God, and seems to ignore the obvious cases of universal fine-tuning.

However, I think their issue is a combination of know-it-allism combined with heart issues. A child can see that Jesus is Lord, a scientist that doesn't believe in God because God is not observable or testable, not so much. Since they discard God as non-scientific, they don't believe in miracles, and therefore discount the divinity of Jesus.