Hell's Population Crock
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in this verse Peter is talking about how that God puts off justice for a while, for example you're not struck down by a flaming meteor or a lightning bolt the moment you sin, and we're not immediately exalted when we do His good will. he says God is "not slack" -- i.e. He's not procrastinating. He lets things run their full course, and part of the reason is His mercy - giving us every opportunity to repent, and for those who reject Him, every opportunity to see the good things He does and seek Him.
hmm...Well here's my question for you: do you obey God for fear of hell or because you love him? I have always struggled with the fear of hell and I think it has gotten in the way of my relationship with God because when I really really want to do a sin what usually stops me is, "don't do that or you know what will happen" and yeah...I know Jesus forgives but there are also verses about sinning intentionally. Like if you sin on purpose then you go to hell (or sheol) automatically.
non-answer.
if everyone will be purged, purified and made clean by the lake of fire -- what's the reason for me to try to convince someone not to sin? why miss out on the temporary pleasures of wickedness in this world if no matter how wicked i am, God will clean me up and set me in His kingdom after i die?
do you think Rev. 22:11 is giving exactly this advice?
did i make a big mistake quitting using drugs and fornicating? am i missing out?
if everyone will be purged, purified and made clean by the lake of fire -- what's the reason for me to try to convince someone not to sin? why miss out on the temporary pleasures of wickedness in this world if no matter how wicked i am, God will clean me up and set me in His kingdom after i die?
do you think Rev. 22:11 is giving exactly this advice?
did i make a big mistake quitting using drugs and fornicating? am i missing out?
there was a time i tried to live righteously because i feared Him - but no amount of effort on my part to "be holy" was ever going to make me clean. i came to realize that i was rejecting the grace He has for me when i thought i had to make myself good enough to be accepted by Him. i gave up, and confessed to Him i could never be what He required - and He showed me how that it's a broken spirit, not a proud one, that is acceptable to Him. He took my brokenness and gave me a new heart and a new spirit that love Him and love His ways.
now i try to turn myself toward what He says is good and away from what He says is evil because i love Him. i'm not afraid. and the reality of it is that my life is much more righteous now than it was when i thought i could make myself righteous - now that i know it is God working in me, not me. see, He is WAY better at righteousness than any man can be.
so God used both fear and love to turn me towards Him. but fear led me to brokenness and loss of hope, and that led me to look for His mercy, and in His mercy He taught me to love, and to love is far greater, and casts away fear. i found a far better hope! people call this a "do-nothing-gospel" - but it's not as though i don't do 'good things' for His sake - it's that i do them for His sake - not for the sake of saving my own skin. i don't want His name to be shamed, or for His servant to be put to shame, because i want His name to be praised -- because i love Him, because He loved me, and put His love in me
i hope that makes some sense . . .
yes, every part of me that sin dwells in will be burned up - i don't "get away" with anything - and if what i do is burned up, i suffer loss. but what it appears to me that Socrates is preaching is that even if i don't trust Christ, i'll be saved anyway by that purging, no matter what. that, i'd say, is patently false universalism, and gives me no reason whatsoever to do good and hate evil, for fear or for love. if no matter what i do or believe, i will be saved, why bother restraining my flesh?
now i try to turn myself toward what He says is good and away from what He says is evil because i love Him. i'm not afraid. and the reality of it is that my life is much more righteous now than it was when i thought i could make myself righteous - now that i know it is God working in me, not me. see, He is WAY better at righteousness than any man can be.
so God used both fear and love to turn me towards Him. but fear led me to brokenness and loss of hope, and that led me to look for His mercy, and in His mercy He taught me to love, and to love is far greater, and casts away fear. i found a far better hope! people call this a "do-nothing-gospel" - but it's not as though i don't do 'good things' for His sake - it's that i do them for His sake - not for the sake of saving my own skin. i don't want His name to be shamed, or for His servant to be put to shame, because i want His name to be praised -- because i love Him, because He loved me, and put His love in me
i hope that makes some sense . . .
yes, every part of me that sin dwells in will be burned up - i don't "get away" with anything - and if what i do is burned up, i suffer loss. but what it appears to me that Socrates is preaching is that even if i don't trust Christ, i'll be saved anyway by that purging, no matter what. that, i'd say, is patently false universalism, and gives me no reason whatsoever to do good and hate evil, for fear or for love. if no matter what i do or believe, i will be saved, why bother restraining my flesh?
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there was a time i tried to live righteously because i feared Him - but no amount of effort on my part to "be holy" was ever going to make me clean. i came to realize that i was rejecting the grace He has for me when i thought i had to make myself good enough to be accepted by Him. i gave up, and confessed to Him i could never be what He required - and He showed me how that it's a broken spirit, not a proud one, that is acceptable to Him. He took my brokenness and gave me a new heart and a new spirit that love Him and love His ways.
now i try to turn myself toward what He says is good and away from what He says is evil because i love Him. i'm not afraid. and the reality of it is that my life is much more righteous now than it was when i thought i could make myself righteous - now that i know it is God working in me, not me. see, He is WAY better at righteousness than any man can be.
so God used both fear and love to turn me towards Him. but fear led me to brokenness and loss of hope, and that led me to look for His mercy, and in His mercy He taught me to love, and to love is far greater, and casts away fear. i found a far better hope! people call this a "do-nothing-gospel" - but it's not as though i don't do 'good things' for His sake - it's that i do them for His sake - not for the sake of saving my own skin. i don't want His name to be shamed, or for His servant to be put to shame, because i want His name to be praised -- because i love Him, because He loved me, and put His love in me
i hope that makes some sense . . .
yes, every part of me that sin dwells in will be burned up - i don't "get away" with anything - and if what i do is burned up, i suffer loss. but what it appears to me that Socrates is preaching is that even if i don't trust Christ, i'll be saved anyway by that purging, no matter what. that, i'd say, is patently false universalism, and gives me no reason whatsoever to do good and hate evil, for fear or for love. if no matter what i do or believe, i will be saved, why bother restraining my flesh?
now i try to turn myself toward what He says is good and away from what He says is evil because i love Him. i'm not afraid. and the reality of it is that my life is much more righteous now than it was when i thought i could make myself righteous - now that i know it is God working in me, not me. see, He is WAY better at righteousness than any man can be.
so God used both fear and love to turn me towards Him. but fear led me to brokenness and loss of hope, and that led me to look for His mercy, and in His mercy He taught me to love, and to love is far greater, and casts away fear. i found a far better hope! people call this a "do-nothing-gospel" - but it's not as though i don't do 'good things' for His sake - it's that i do them for His sake - not for the sake of saving my own skin. i don't want His name to be shamed, or for His servant to be put to shame, because i want His name to be praised -- because i love Him, because He loved me, and put His love in me
i hope that makes some sense . . .
yes, every part of me that sin dwells in will be burned up - i don't "get away" with anything - and if what i do is burned up, i suffer loss. but what it appears to me that Socrates is preaching is that even if i don't trust Christ, i'll be saved anyway by that purging, no matter what. that, i'd say, is patently false universalism, and gives me no reason whatsoever to do good and hate evil, for fear or for love. if no matter what i do or believe, i will be saved, why bother restraining my flesh?
S
In Luke and the story of the rich man I think Jesus is pretty clear on what hell is.
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “
Let me introduce J Preston Eby and his explanation of Luke 16:
https://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html
https://www.godfire.net/eby/abrahams.html
[h=1]1 Timothy 4 King James Version (KJV)[/h]4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.
9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
11 These things command and teach.
J
Luke chapter 13
[23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
[28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
[29] And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
[30] And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
[23] Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
[24] Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
[25] When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
[26] Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
[27] But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
[28] There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
[29] And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
[30] And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
That is unbiblical.
All unbelievers and names not found written in the Book of Life (those that are UNsaved) depart from the Lord at the Great White Throne Judgment and banished to the everlasting fire.
Revelation 20:10
[SUP]"10 [/SUP]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Now what does the Bible say about the unsaved?
Matthew 25: 41-46:
[SUP]41 [/SUP]“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, [SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
[SUP]44 [/SUP]“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
[SUP]45 [/SUP]“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
[SUP]46 [/SUP]“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
These are two areas in the Bible that clearly indicate that not only will the devil, beast and false prophet go to eternal damnation, but also the goats, the unbelieving, and the UNsaved people as well.
All unbelievers and names not found written in the Book of Life (those that are UNsaved) depart from the Lord at the Great White Throne Judgment and banished to the everlasting fire.
Revelation 20:10
[SUP]"10 [/SUP]And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Now what does the Bible say about the unsaved?
Matthew 25: 41-46:
[SUP]41 [/SUP]“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. [SUP]42 [/SUP]For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, [SUP]43 [/SUP]I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
[SUP]44 [/SUP]“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
[SUP]45 [/SUP]“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
[SUP]46 [/SUP]“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
These are two areas in the Bible that clearly indicate that not only will the devil, beast and false prophet go to eternal damnation, but also the goats, the unbelieving, and the UNsaved people as well.