Heresy on Christianchat

[TosinAsLeader]

LOL! little brother, you bring up some excellent points. But I must say that I do agree with eternally-grateful when he says that Scripture is the place to start studying your faith. St. Augustine WAS a saint and STILL IS! But I will talk from personal experience. When I was in prison, I had a dream/vision or whatever people want to call it. It was something out of this world and I can't find a word suitable enough for it. But when I came out of it, I had this UNBEARABLE HUNGER to know God. In prison you have access only to what they want you to have access to lol. I asked for a Bible. I read that Bible twice in 2 months, and I had never read a book in my life. It was the best thing I could ever have done. The Bible is what reinforced my hunger for God!!! I say to everyone that the most important commandment is to love the Lord your God with all your heart mind and soul. As humans we need to know someone before we love them like this, and the BEST way to know God is by reading His word. But don't, by any means, be scared to read up about the saints. They are called saints because they led a very God-filled life and obeyed His commandments so vigorously. They do have alot that we can learn from them. But I really suggest that you read the Holy Bible first, brother. You will see how beautifully perfect this Lord God of ours put everything together, and how it all makes sense. And don't ever forget to listen to God when He talks to you. God bless!!

Indeed. My point being that we should not study the Apostles, but the scriptures. Sure, learn about them, but don't put your faith in them. They are only human. I read the bible just about everyday. I found out things that are either condemned as wrong or sinful and found out its an opinion of man, not G-d's abiding truth. So, my point, don't follow man for they will lead you astray.
P.S. Don't use that quote as a means to not follow your teacher. I mean spiritually lol.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Um. Lets look at the bible you claim to study.

NASB Matthew 26:31-35:
Then Jesus *said to them, “You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, ‘I will strike down the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered.’ [SUP]32 [/SUP]But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee.” [SUP]33 [/SUP]But Peter said to Him, “Even though all mayfall away because of You, I will never fall away.” [SUP]34 [/SUP]Jesus said to him, “Truly I say to you that this very night, before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” [SUP]35 [/SUP]Peter *said to Him, “Even if I have to die with You, I will not deny You.” All the disciples said the same thing too.

NASB Matthew 26: 69-75:

Now Peter was sitting outside in the courtyard, and a servant-girl came to him and said, “You too were with Jesus the Galilean.” [SUP]70 [/SUP]But he denied it before them all, saying, “I do not know what you are talking about.” [SUP]71 [/SUP]When he had gone out to the gateway, another servant-girl saw him and *said to those who were there, “This man was with Jesus of Nazareth.” [SUP]72 [/SUP]And again he denied it with an oath, “I do not know the man.” [SUP]73 [/SUP]A little later the bystanders came up and said to Peter, “Surely you too are one of them; for even the way you talk gives you away.” [SUP]74 [/SUP]Then he began to curse and swear, “I do not know the man!” And immediately a rooster crowed. [SUP]75 [/SUP]And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, “Before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly.

well you just proved me right. I do not understand what you point was.

This is what I would call, "The Fallacy Fallacy." Plus, this statement is weak and poorly structured and makes your stance on G-d brought at a fragile state. Anyone can use this agrument and say: "Have you personally met G-d? Have you personally met the Apostles?" If you did not, can you say the things written about Him or the things written that claim to be what he said are not in error? Restate you point in a different context, otherwise the whole point would be disregarded as double-minded.

lol.. really?

my point was that what is said about God and the apostles in scripture can be trusted, it is inspired by God.

what can be said about augustine can it be trusted? unless you met they guy, how can you know everything you are told is true? by only following those who wrote about him, were they inspired? can they be trusted? by whose standard? can these things be equal with scripture?

My whole point was this.

should we base our eternity on uninspired words of men written a few hundred years AFTER scripture was completed? or should we base our eternity on the inspired written word of God?

is this a bad question?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you had said, "too bad the world at large got away from the teaching of Christ (not the teaching of the church)" I would have agreed with you.

And Jesus mixed among the people, which is how it should be so I agree with you on that.

when I say the church, I am speaking of most churches,, does not matter what denomination.. just the church we see on earth today as a whole.

and sorry, i have been to many of them, and yes what i said is true.

 

[TosinAsLeader]

Far out, I can see good things coming out of this 16 yr old!!!! lol keep it up little brother.

I can see you getting alot of likes from me atleast LOL!

 

[7seven7]

Guilty conscience? Who said i was talking about you?



I know all about the catholic youth programs, and the same programs many other churches provide. I have been to many of them. But that was not even what I am talking about

can you ever show any humility? All I hear you say is we can;t know the catholic church or we would not make claims. We are not as unknowing as you think. Just because we disagree does not mean we do not know. and you have to go on defensive mode. God does not need us to protect his church, he is perfectly capable of doing this himself. You scream at everyone else. when you have no humility that I can see whatsoever.



lol. And more attacks.. wow..

Do you want to speak about what i said, and show me how your church does this? or do you want to just make unfounded attacks??

What church were you talking about then?

 

[PS]

when I say the church, I am speaking of most churches,, does not matter what denomination.. just the church we see on earth today as a whole.

and sorry, i have been to many of them, and yes what i said is true.

I am afraid there are cliques in all churches, but then you get that in society anyway. I'm also ashamed to say that I am not the best mixer due to being shy and a little tongue tied which is why I like the forums.

What people see on the outside, which may be someone who is a little stand-offish, is not what is happening on the inside. Perhaps we need to try to understand people a bit better? Just a thought.

 

[TosinAsLeader]

well you just proved me right. I do not understand what you point was.

REQUOTE: "How do you know Peter denied him three times?"

What on earth are you talking about. Read what you said and what I said in response. I know because the bible said so.

lol.. really?

my point was that what is said about God and the apostles in scripture can be trusted, it is inspired by God.

what can be said about augustine can it be trusted? unless you met they guy, how can you know everything you are told is true? by only following those who wrote about him, were they inspired? can they be trusted? by whose standard? can these things be equal with scripture?

My whole point was this.

should we base our eternity on uninspired words of men written a few hundred years AFTER scripture was completed? or should we base our eternity on the inspired written word of God?

Sure, which is the bible. However, your logic is failing. The way you put your point in a sense, brought contradiction to what you believe.

is this a bad question?

Of course not. I just strongly disagree with your point. If we can't trust St.Augustine:
1. We can't trust our Historians.
2.We can't trust our Archeologist
3. We can't trust our Philosophers
4. We can't trust our Teachers
5. We can't trust G-d.

Of course we can trust G-d, your point should be reanalyzed. That is all I am saying.

P.S. If you said that to an Evolutionist, you would have got slammed down hard.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What church were you talking about then?

most of them

how many churches do you know get together and have dinner together before they get into the word. Then hang out for hours after. And then on Sunday, all the local home groups get together for a central teaching, then spend fellowship after, and go out to lunch or just hang out? Then get together often as they can just to have a prayer breakfast. or a prayer dinner. Or just to hang out for no reason but to be with the family.

No church I have been to has ever done this. Most churches I went to (including catholic) you went, said hellow to people you did not really know. Get force fed the word, sing a few songs, call that worship. then say a polite goodby and leave, not to see anyone until the next time you see them at the church building.

Oh they may have dinners every now and then.. But even in these, I really did not get to know anyone on a personal level. No discipleship. No family atmosphere.

the early church met often in their houses., they ate with each other, sang together, prayed with each other, Disciples each other., which is impossible unless you get to know each other on a personal basis.

 

[homwardbound]

Was Peter not enlightened and his error removed,
Did Christ not foresee the error and even forewarned him of it so that when it happened he would know Christ is all truth.
After being enlightened by truth why then would any of the apostles writings contain any error since God's inspired words can only contain truth

St. Peter was not in the Spirit Pentecost had not yet happened and was in the Flesh and even after the Spirit indwelt him he was a riding the fence as many today are doing as well, but he did come to full uinderstanding and WOW!!!!! Jesus said to Peter Satan wishes to sift you like wheat, but I pray for your Works? or Faith Faith right? Yes Faith and thou return you will strengthen the brethren and Peter did and thus could say count it all Joy when you enter divers temptations. We all are learninuig of and about the truth whether we go to this Church or that or do not go to. It makes no differance for Christ is being preached and those that are searching truly Father leads them to Christ and the devil and or devils are always trying to lead those that beleive or are coming to beleif astray
Remember the seed sown on the ground some fell on rocky soil other on soil that was not very deep and some on fertile so Let us each pray for the fertile soil for each of us to get and see and thereby grow, for God knows what God is doing and sionce Christ said to his disciples to leave thos others alone for as long as his name is being preached it is okay. You know why? Because God knowseach persons heart and they will know Gopd and truth in God through the Son of God by God's leading. So therefore whether that Church or that Church is preaching truth or not is not the issue. The issue is CHRIST is being preached therefore let them alone and let us each discuss what we see and let the other decide for themselves each in freedom as we all have been given free choice. Thnks hoping we all get this so we all can learn and decide in and of ourselves for by this we will all love each other as Gopd has already chosen to LOVE us

 

[eternally-gratefull]

well you just proved me right. I do not understand what you point was.

REQUOTE: "How do you know Peter denied him three times?"

What on earth are you talking about. Read what you said and what I said in response. I know because the bible said so.


Sure, which is the bible. However, your logic is failing. The way you put your point in a sense, brought contradiction to what you believe.



Of course not. I just strongly disagree with your point. If we can't trust St.Augustine:
1. We can't trust our Historians.
2.We can't trust our Archeologist
3. We can't trust our Philosophers
4. We can't trust our Teachers
5. We can't trust G-d.

Of course we can trust G-d, your point should be reanalyzed. That is all I am saying.

P.S. If you said that to an Evolutionist, you would have got slammed down hard.

lol..

the jews

1. trusted their Historians.
2. trust there Philosophers
3. trust their Teachers
4. Trusted their history
5. said they trusted God.

Jesus had to correct them with the word of God
the apostles had to correct them with the word of God


see the trouble it got them into? they crucified the very messiah who came to save them.

if you want to make the same mistake. feel free.. I will trust in the word.. God warns us against doing the very thing you are doing.. Take heed.

A church who has to rely on things outside of scripture. is not a church of God. they are no better than the very jews who did the same thing, and crucified my savior!

 

[7seven7]

Guilty conscience? Who said i was talking about you?



I know all about the catholic youth programs, and the same programs many other churches provide. I have been to many of them. But that was not even what I am talking about

can you ever show any humility? All I hear you say is we can;t know the catholic church or we would not make claims. We are not as unknowing as you think. Just because we disagree does not mean we do not know. and you have to go on defensive mode. God does not need us to protect his church, he is perfectly capable of doing this himself. You scream at everyone else. when you have no humility that I can see whatsoever.



lol. And more attacks.. wow..

Do you want to speak about what i said, and show me how your church does this? or do you want to just make unfounded attacks??

can I show humility? brother, if I have come accross as rude, I sincerely apologize. But I have done nothing more than answer the questions put to me about my faith, and as soon as I answer them, except for a few good people I have met in here, I get attacked and they don't even reply to my comment, just change the topic. Do I get angry? No I dont. Do I get rude? No. And people make these accusations about the Church without ANY POSSIBILITY of knowing the Church's position on that accusation, which is why I keep saying that. Because as soon as I give them Her position on it, they are surprised and don't argue the point. Not everyone who disagrees does not know. I know that. But 95% of the time they don't. Believe me, champ.
And when did I scream at everyone? lol Are you out of your mind? Have you seen the arrogence and bitterness I have received in this chat site, just because I'm Catholic? You only have to look at this thread, let alone the site. But I have made so many beautiful friends too. But if I get defensive, it's because of the bitterness I receive. But I always ask God to bless whoever it is I'm talking to, with all my heart. Peace, and God bless

 

[7seven7]

lol..

the jews

1. trusted their Historians.
2. trust there Philosophers
3. trust their Teachers
4. Trusted their history
5. said they trusted God.

Jesus had to correct them with the word of God
the apostles had to correct them with the word of God


see the trouble it got them into? they crucified the very messiah who came to save them.

if you want to make the same mistake. feel free.. I will trust in the word.. God warns us against doing the very thing you are doing.. Take heed.

A church who has to rely on things outside of scripture. is not a church of God. they are no better than the very jews who did the same thing, and crucified my savior!

Don't forget it was us who crucified the Lord!
Where does it say in scripture, that scripture is the sole rule of faith? Not saying its not important, just asking.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

can I show humility? brother, if I have come accross as rude, I sincerely apologize. But I have done nothing more than answer the questions put to me about my faith, and as soon as I answer them, except for a few good people I have met in here, I get attacked and they don't even reply to my comment, just change the topic. Do I get angry? No I dont. Do I get rude? No. And people make these accusations about the Church without ANY POSSIBILITY of knowing the Church's position on that accusation, which is why I keep saying that. Because as soon as I give them Her position on it, they are surprised and don't argue the point. Not everyone who disagrees does not know. I know that. But 95% of the time they don't. Believe me, champ.
And when did I scream at everyone? lol Are you out of your mind? Have you seen the arrogence and bitterness I have received in this chat site, just because I'm Catholic? You only have to look at this thread, let alone the site. But I have made so many beautiful friends too. But if I get defensive, it's because of the bitterness I receive. But I always ask God to bless whoever it is I'm talking to, with all my heart. Peace, and God bless

we all have people who will do this to us. i agree.

My point is. don;t use the argument you do not know us or you would not say such things, that comes off as arrogant, and quite frankly gets old.. (almost every catholic I know uses this.. and to be honest. except for mayby orthodox. I have never heard any other person or church use this excuse.. so you could see how it would get old real quick and be a cause of contention between people and your church)

It tells a person you are not going to listen to anything they say, or even consider it..

speak the word.. no one can go against you or feel attacked if you do this.. even if they disagree, it gives you a place to start discussing.. and hopefully have a peacefull discussion even if you agree to disagree..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Don't forget it was us who crucified the Lord!
Where does it say in scripture, that scripture is the sole rule of faith? Not saying its not important, just asking.

yes, in reality it was us who crucified him, as he had to come take our sin on his body so we could be set free.

My point was. They hated him because he went against their man made history, their manmade laws, their manmade philosophy. their man made leaders etc etc..

What did he fight them with?? The word of God (scripture) same as did the apostles. should we take their example? or risk falling into the example of the jews,

Ask ourselves this. Did God leave us a book which is incomplete? if he did. why?

 

[7seven7]

most of them

how many churches do you know get together and have dinner together before they get into the word. Then hang out for hours after. And then on Sunday, all the local home groups get together for a central teaching, then spend fellowship after, and go out to lunch or just hang out? Then get together often as they can just to have a prayer breakfast. or a prayer dinner. Or just to hang out for no reason but to be with the family.

No church I have been to has ever done this. Most churches I went to (including catholic) you went, said hellow to people you did not really know. Get force fed the word, sing a few songs, call that worship. then say a polite goodby and leave, not to see anyone until the next time you see them at the church building.

Oh they may have dinners every now and then.. But even in these, I really did not get to know anyone on a personal level. No discipleship. No family atmosphere.

the early church met often in their houses., they ate with each other, sang together, prayed with each other, Disciples each other., which is impossible unless you get to know each other on a personal basis.

Brother, we have to remember that the times back then allowed them to fellowship so much. Its not a good enough excuse, I know, but also back then, they lived, worked, ate with and were constantly surrounded by fellow christians. the times were completely different back then, allowing them to do all these things. Who has time today to have lunch or just hang out? Then get together often as they can just to have a prayer breakfast. or a prayer dinner. Or just to hang out for no reason but to be with the family. You have no idea how much I would LOVE for this to be my life, especially now that I surround myself with righteousness wherever I can. But the simple truth of it is, by the time we work, study, sleep and eat, there's hardly time left for kids or chores. I hate it as much as you do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Brother, we have to remember that the times back then allowed them to fellowship so much. Its not a good enough excuse, I know, but also back then, they lived, worked, ate with and were constantly surrounded by fellow christians. the times were completely different back then, allowing them to do all these things. Who has time today to have lunch or just hang out? Then get together often as they can just to have a prayer breakfast. or a prayer dinner. Or just to hang out for no reason but to be with the family. You have no idea how much I would LOVE for this to be my life, especially now that I surround myself with righteousness wherever I can. But the simple truth of it is, by the time we work, study, sleep and eat, there's hardly time left for kids or chores. I hate it as much as you do.

Brother, I understand they had it easier to do this then we do. But I have found a church where we do it. I am sure not as much as they did. But I know my brothers and sisters in my small little home group in a personal level. And are with them as much as I can.. Church service is but a small amount of our fellowship.. (not saying the least important, i would be wrong) just saying we do it.

people who can, will.. in my experience. most do not want to. because it would expose our sin and weakness. We do not want the church to know how bad we really are.. so we play the church game..

 

[BarlyGurl]

Brother, we have to remember that the times back then allowed them to fellowship so much. Its not a good enough excuse, I know, but also back then, they lived, worked, ate with and were constantly surrounded by fellow christians. the times were completely different back then, allowing them to do all these things. Who has time today to have lunch or just hang out? Then get together often as they can just to have a prayer breakfast. or a prayer dinner. Or just to hang out for no reason but to be with the family. You have no idea how much I would LOVE for this to be my life, especially now that I surround myself with righteousness wherever I can. But the simple truth of it is, by the time we work, study, sleep and eat, there's hardly time left for kids or chores. I hate it as much as you do.

mostly the problem today is... people are enslaved to mammon. Most people COULD make some changes to make thier lives more "fellowship" friendly and free up more time... instead of living the grind. American lifestyle... is especially the worst.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

mostly the problem today is... people are enslaved to mammon. Most people COULD make some changes to make thier lives more "fellowship" friendly and free up more time... instead of living the grind. American lifestyle... is especially the worst.

this too.. They don;t want to hang out with christian friends, because then I have to be something i am not. or miss out on the things I want.

when we should want these things..

 

[7seven7]

yes, in reality it was us who crucified him, as he had to come take our sin on his body so we could be set free.

My point was. They hated him because he went against their man made history, their manmade laws, their manmade philosophy. their man made leaders etc etc..

What did he fight them with?? The word of God (scripture) same as did the apostles. should we take their example? or risk falling into the example of the jews,

Ask ourselves this. Did God leave us a book which is incomplete? if he did. why?

Ok, that's a good point. But the difference between them and us is this. Their leaders and history were manmade. Our leaders and history began at the time of Christ. All our leaders and history teach us about is Christ. He doesn't go against us, nor we against Him. We follow His teachings. The Jews can't be compared to us in this way.

And we never said that the Bible is incomplete. But it is not the sole rule of faith! It's really as simple as that. It doesn't even claim to be, which if you are to go off sola scriptura, you would have to find where it says that, because all your beliefs come from It! Do you see my point? Please don't misinterpret my comment. I believe that the Bible is the most important thing in my faith, just not the ONLY important thing. St. Paul passed his traditions on to his followers, and asked them to stick to them, and praised them for doing so. Man, it's all in there.

 

[TosinAsLeader]

lol..

the jews

1. trusted their Historians.
2. trust there Philosophers
3. trust their Teachers
4. Trusted their history
5. said they trusted God.

Ok, so we don't trust even our best friends now?

Jesus had to correct them with the word of God
the apostles had to correct them with the word of God
see the trouble it got them into? they crucified the very messiah who came to save them.


if you want to make the same mistake. feel free..

I am making a mistake by believing proven facts? OK, so you won't believe this meteorite that hit Russia a month ago. The news is lying, don't trust them!

I will trust in the word.. God warns us against doing the very thing you are doing.. Take heed.

I think I remember now why I dislike the word, "Christian." Please can you interpreted what you are trying to say to me? I trust His word also, it is my truth. You can't just disregard someone else because they are human (take into thought that I mean to not follow them spiritually.)

A church who has to rely on things outside of scripture. is not a church of God. they are no better than the very jews who did the same thing, and crucified my savior!

Our sin crucified Holy Yeshua. What you and I did on the internet, or at school or wherever, that is why he died. The Jews had to killed him (in literal sense) to fulfill prophecy. If he didn't die for our sins, we would be condemned.