Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture

[homwardbound]

HB,

Thanks for another good post with which I agree so again I ask whether you agree with what I have posted so we have unity thus far in answer to the prayer of Jesus?

We are in agreement Christ is risen for us to learn new from this truth, we both seeing not ever wanting to die, accepting the flesh is dead already, yet the Spirit of God in our Souls is not dead thanks to God in risen Son for us
We learn new daily standing in trust for God to teach us and we learn and do not accuse or excuse, which I think you see this too, thank you

I start with thankfulness each morning God still loves us and to me many times should not, yet does, amazing grace to me seeing to not harm others ever again on purpose or from anger either, since God chose to not harm me
or anyone else either. that is my response to God, thanksgiving and praise personally,
Amazing for me to still be alive here today on earth, when I died 12 years ago per the doctors 7 times they resuscitated me on that operating table. I had Foreigners Gangrene, it is a urinary tract infection that passed to my entire body, I got amputated inside and out, intestines removed partially, and my penis to boot by them to save me. I am only alive by the Doctor Jeremy Myers, that put a new hole into my bladder between my balls and buttocks. Then Took a muscle out of my left leg, and stuck that in the hole using a flap in that muscle to close and open by sitting down to pea. I have to use Catheter's to pea presently daily 4 to five times a day. The sitting down part does not work.
Yes, no more sex literally forever, I get the first taste of no marriage in Heaven Hallelujah!, yet did not view it that way at first, much troubles set in me at first over this happening too begin with. It was caused by my service to this country, the Marine Corps instructors, who stopped me from peeing back then in boot camp and laughed when told me to stop, yet I have not been able to prove it, Okay, no matter it happened, I get to deal with it to see new in it, standing in trust to God over it all, God knows what is best to happen in my honest opinion. I stand in Faith, belief and will not deny God ever, as evil now knows this too, thank you
Love to all is my response to God for his love to all first through Son that is risen where new life is given to see and be new in it automatically, with a flesh fight to boot, to stay out of the anger that besets people, to begin with
learning contentment in all things

 

[homwardbound]

HB,

Thanks for another good post with which I agree so again I ask whether you agree with what I have posted so we have unity thus far in answer to the prayer of Jesus?

I am in agreement, not always understanding what you might be trying to say,a s Peter did not understand Paul as said at the end of 1Peter 3

 

[GWH]

We are in agreement Christ is risen for us to learn new from this truth, we both seeing not ever wanting to die, accepting the flesh is dead already, yet the Spirit of God in our Souls is not dead thanks to God in risen Son for us
We learn new daily standing in trust for God to teach us and we learn and do not accuse or excuse, which I think you see this too, thank you

I start with thankfulness each morning God still loves us and to me many times should not, yet does, amazing grace to me seeing to not harm others ever again on purpose or from anger either, since God chose to not harm me
or anyone else either. that is my response to God, thanksgiving and praise personally,
Amazing for me to still be alive here today on earth, when I died 12 years ago per the doctors 7 times they resuscitated me on that operating table. I had Foreigners Gangrene, it is a urinary tract infection that passed to my entire body, I got amputated inside and out, intestines removed partially, and my penis to boot by them to save me. I am only alive by the Doctor Jeremy Myers, that put a new hole into my bladder between my balls and buttocks. Then Took a muscle out of my left leg, and stuck that in the hole using a flap in that muscle to close and open by sitting down to pea. I have to use Catheter's to pea presently daily 4 to five times a day. The sitting down part does not work.
Yes, no more sex literally forever, I get the first taste of no marriage in Heaven Hallelujah!, yet did not view it that way at first, much troubles set in me at first over this happening too begin with. It was caused by my service to this country, the Marine Corps instructors, who stopped me from peeing back then in boot camp and laughed when told me to stop, yet I have not been able to prove it, Okay, no matter it happened, I get to deal with it to see new in it, standing in trust to God over it all, God knows what is best to happen in my honest opinion. I stand in Faith, belief and will not deny God ever, as evil now knows this too, thank you
Love to all is my response to God for his love to all first through Son that is risen where new life is given to see and be new in it automatically, with a flesh fight to boot, to stay out of the anger that besets people, to begin with
learning contentment in all things

P.S. I am in agreement, not always understanding what you might be trying to say,a s Peter did not understand Paul as said at the end of 1Peter 3

Dang! I mean PTL!

I am glad we agree so far and I hope oneness will continue for awhile before some folks may feel they need to diverge because of a significant difference of opinion/interpretation.

Thanks for the complement regarding Paul, because I view my understanding of Jesus as guided by a Pauline hermeneutic and admire him so much that I named my son after him. (If I were Hispanic maybe I would have named him Jesus :^)

LIC

 

[GWH]

Scriptures on which we agree:

JN 17:20-23 – Jesus prayed that his follower would be one, so achieving agreement is our quest
1THS 5:21 – (As we seek spiritual and doctrinal unity) we test interpretations and agree with the good.
1TM 2:3-4 - "God our savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
2THS 1:6a - "God is just" = RM 9:14, "Is God unjust? No!" = DT 32:4b, "...all His ways are just".

Point of discussion or disagreement (POD) - whether justness mean righteousness and goodness.

MT 5:44-48 – “Love your enemies” like God, who is perfect.

POD – Whether God loves or hates Satan; whether Satan is evil/unrighteousness or is a (the first) sinner who does evil/unrighteousness (cf. 1JN 5:17)

2TM 3:14 - “Continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it.”

POD – What is the previous learning or Scripture to which Paul refers?

2CR 4:5 – “We do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord.”
CL 2:6 - “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him.”

God chooses all who are sincere to know God, not interested in the here and now gains. (cf. MT 6:33)
There is one (DT 6:4) all-loving (JN 3:16) and just (2THS 1:6) Lord God.
God is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all sinners salvation/heaven.
Souls are sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18).
Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ/Way of providing salvation that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11).
Every soul who learns the Gospel must accept Christ as Lord (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31).
Accepting Christ’s Lordship means trying to obey His law of love (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)
Saving faith in Christ must be forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
God’s Holy Spirit will indwell those who accept Christ as Lord. (RV 3:20)
Heaven on earth necessitates persevering in faith and learning God’s Word (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Sexual immorality can be a big problem. (MT 15:19,1CR 6:13&18)
Understanding truth is the purpose of hermeneutics and it requires right reasoning (IS 1:18a)

1 Cr 13:12 – “Now we see but a poor reflection; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
1CR 8:1b-3 – “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God.”

POD – Whether we should only read the biblical text and offer no interpretation.

1CR 2:13-14 - “This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

POD – Whether disunity is due to trying to agree on one interpretation of Scripture or rather to apathy about that quest.

GL 1:6-9 - Seeking ecumenical fellowship does not include those who contradict the NT Gospel.
2CR 11:14 - “...Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.”

POD – Whether light includes justness/righteousness/goodness.

GL 5:1 – “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.”

Scriptures key to the right understanding of God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS, the kerygma or proclamation) may be distinguished from doctrines that are secondary or subsequent to learning GRFS (the didache or teaching). (MT 28:19-20, HB 5:12-14, JN 16:13)

When witnessing, do not worry about what you will say, because God will give you wise words. (LK 21:14-15, cf. 1PT 3:15)

1CR 13:4-7 – Love is patient and kind; not envious, boastful, proud, rude, self-seeking, easily angered, unforgiving and enjoying evil. It rejoices with truth and protects, trusts, hopes and perseveres.

The spiritual union of Christ and His disciples is comparable to marriage (EPH 5:23-32).
Christians need to retain saving faith (LK 9:23, 2CR 4:16) as they grow spiritually, learning how to become more like Christ or achieve His fullness.
Christians need to persevere in their acceptance of Christ (the kerygma) and to keep on learning (the didache) until the day they die (MT 10:22, 2THS 1:3-5, 2PT 1:5-8).
At the moment of repentance God’s Holy Spirit unites with believers, identifying them with Christ’s body or church (CL 1:18), which is called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13).

POD – Whether this dynamic occurs also for pre-NT believers. (Cf. ACTS 4:12.)

So far, so one, perhaps not perfectly until the PODs are resolved, but sufficiently for fellowship.

Thanks for your communion! LIC, GWH

 

[homwardbound]

Dang! I mean PTL!

I am glad we agree so far and I hope oneness will continue for awhile before some folks may feel they need to diverge because of a significant difference of opinion/interpretation.

Thanks for the complement regarding Paul, because I view my understanding of Jesus as guided by a Pauline hermeneutic and admire him so much that I named my son after him. (If I were Hispanic maybe I would have named him Jesus :^)

LIC

Just as we will always have the poor among us, we will always have people that agree and do not agree
From Paul's written words, I see Paul only saw from the risen Jesus, not the done work of Jesus. He many times said that work is done and he is risen where new life begins in us to love as are loved by God first. Amazing to. view it all from that perspective for me anyways.
I see this, whenever Start to get angry over anything, I see Romans 2:1-4, and Romans 14:1-4 returning to trusting God to work out all things for the good (Rom 8:28)
I see God takes it all in and does not react as we the people do. We only usually only see the outside as God sees both the inside and outside
God always knows righteously what God has allowed and does allow
Having a true righteous reason, that I usually do not understand

 

[homwardbound]

Scriptures on which we agree:

JN 17:20-23 – Jesus prayed that his follower would be one, so achieving agreement is our quest
1THS 5:21 – (As we seek spiritual and doctrinal unity) we test interpretations and agree with the good.
1TM 2:3-4 - "God our savior wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
2THS 1:6a - "God is just" = RM 9:14, "Is God unjust? No!" = DT 32:4b, "...all His ways are just".

Point of discussion or disagreement (POD) - whether justness mean righteousness and goodness.

MT 5:44-48 – “Love your enemies” like God, who is perfect.

POD – Whether God loves or hates Satan; whether Satan is evil/unrighteousness or is a (the first) sinner who does evil/unrighteousness (cf. 1JN 5:17)

2TM 3:14 - “Continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it.”

POD – What is the previous learning or Scripture to which Paul refers?

2CR 4:5 – “We do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord.”
CL 2:6 - “Just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him.”

God chooses all who are sincere to know God, not interested in the here and now gains. (cf. MT 6:33)
There is one (DT 6:4) all-loving (JN 3:16) and just (2THS 1:6) Lord God.
God is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all sinners salvation/heaven.
Souls are sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18).
Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ/Way of providing salvation that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11).
Every soul who learns the Gospel must accept Christ as Lord (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31).
Accepting Christ’s Lordship means trying to obey His law of love (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)
Saving faith in Christ must be forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
God’s Holy Spirit will indwell those who accept Christ as Lord. (RV 3:20)
Heaven on earth necessitates persevering in faith and learning God’s Word (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Sexual immorality can be a big problem. (MT 15:19,1CR 6:13&18)
Understanding truth is the purpose of hermeneutics and it requires right reasoning (IS 1:18a)

1 Cr 13:12 – “Now we see but a poor reflection; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
1CR 8:1b-3 – “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God.”

POD – Whether we should only read the biblical text and offer no interpretation.

1CR 2:13-14 - “This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

POD – Whether disunity is due to trying to agree on one interpretation of Scripture or rather to apathy about that quest.

GL 1:6-9 - Seeking ecumenical fellowship does not include those who contradict the NT Gospel.
2CR 11:14 - “...Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.”

POD – Whether light includes justness/righteousness/goodness.

GL 5:1 – “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.”

Scriptures key to the right understanding of God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS, the kerygma or proclamation) may be distinguished from doctrines that are secondary or subsequent to learning GRFS (the didache or teaching). (MT 28:19-20, HB 5:12-14, JN 16:13)

When witnessing, do not worry about what you will say, because God will give you wise words. (LK 21:14-15, cf. 1PT 3:15)

1CR 13:4-7 – Love is patient and kind; not envious, boastful, proud, rude, self-seeking, easily angered, unforgiving and enjoying evil. It rejoices with truth and protects, trusts, hopes and perseveres.

The spiritual union of Christ and His disciples is comparable to marriage (EPH 5:23-32).
Christians need to retain saving faith (LK 9:23, 2CR 4:16) as they grow spiritually, learning how to become more like Christ or achieve His fullness.
Christians need to persevere in their acceptance of Christ (the kerygma) and to keep on learning (the didache) until the day they die (MT 10:22, 2THS 1:3-5, 2PT 1:5-8).
At the moment of repentance God’s Holy Spirit unites with believers, identifying them with Christ’s body or church (CL 1:18), which is called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13).

POD – Whether this dynamic occurs also for pre-NT believers. (Cf. ACTS 4:12.)

So far, so one, perhaps not perfectly until the PODs are resolved, but sufficiently for fellowship.

Thanks for your communion! LIC, GWH

Accepted, forgiven, and sealed to see the truth, it is done for you to be new in love to all by the last sacrifice made for us by Son to us willingly
The change goes from first birth to second birth, given this from God Father in risen Son to us, It is thus done for us to walk new in love to all as called, to me at least, thanks
Eph 1:6, 7, 13
Phil 1:6, 1 John 2:1-2, 12

 

[GWH]

Yes, and the way we walk more lovingly is by persevering in learning God’s Word.

 

[glf]

My goal in this thread is to discuss how we can answer Christ's prayer for spiritual unity among his followers that is found in John 17:20-23.
It seems to me that a lot of chat by Christians tends to ignore Jesus' concern, but for those who share it the question is how to achieve it, and the answer involves agreeing on one interpretation of Scripture.

Thus, I would like to begin by sharing a way of interpreting Scripture that is based on the instruction of Paul in 1THS 5:21 to “Test everything. Hold on to the good.” As I have been seeking ultimate truth and testing what I have learned, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements, but before I share them I would like to ask y'all to tell which two most guide your thinking and chatting.
Thanks and love in Christ (LIC)

I regard the Holy scriptures to be every word inspired in the original language, except for allagory and parables; which is only availalbe to us as prolific copies of copies. For myself, I take Textus Receptus as the best compilation of said copies. Next I regard context as imperative for acurate understanding. Also, scripture proves scripture. I would like to add illumination to this list, but sadly, I am unable to discern what scripture has been illuminated by the Holy Spirit to me and which is from my own mind. I am convinced that the truth feels exactly the same as does error as per 1 Cor 8: 2:
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
And 1 Cor 13: 9, 12:
9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
To me the truth of each doctrine is like a giant puzzel with little pieces gradually added with study and often takes some time for any picture of the truth becomes apparent.

Because of this and over time. I have come to the conclusion that unity of the Spirit does not include unity of doctrines. If we all held the same opinions in our doctrines, we'd have no reason to discuss scripture and to study the proofs for what I believe to be true. There would be no knowing in part or seeing the truth through a dark glass. This doesn't apply to core doctrines like those found in the apostle's creed, some things must be agreed upon or we'd end up accepting cults and their twisting of scripture and who Jesus actually is.
For an example: take the diversity of the gifts of the Spirit as per 1 Cor 12: 4, 6, 11:
4) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 6) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
We are to have several gifts, if we desire the best gifts. Even the same gift will operate differently from one person to another. BTW: Each gift of the Spirit operates by faith so if you don't believe, your promised gift will not activate. As per Rom 11: 29: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
So unity of the Spirit applies to core doctrines; spiritual maturity; acceptancce of diversity, or else how can iron sharpen iron; and a shared vision and outreach to be accomplished as per Eph 4: 12-16:
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Please ignore what's below this point!

 

[Adstar]

My goal in this thread is to discuss how we can answer Christ's prayer for spiritual unity among his followers that is found in John 17:20-23.
It seems to me that a lot of chat by Christians tends to ignore Jesus' concern, but for those who share it the question is how to achieve it, and the answer involves agreeing on one interpretation of Scripture.

Thus, I would like to begin by sharing a way of interpreting Scripture that is based on the instruction of Paul in 1THS 5:21 to “Test everything. Hold on to the good.” As I have been seeking ultimate truth and testing what I have learned, I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible, especially problematic statements, but before I share them I would like to ask y'all to tell which two most guide your thinking and chatting.

Thanks and love in Christ (LIC)

I believe unity does exist among His followers.. The Worlds unity is about accepting any doctrine of demons put forward by others.. Division is justified and nessecary when another group has a gospel denying doctrine..

 

[GWH]

I regard the Holy scriptures to be every word inspired in the original language, except for allagory and parables; which is only availalbe to us as prolific copies of copies. For myself, I take Textus Receptus as the best compilation of said copies. Next I regard context as imperative for acurate understanding. Also, scripture proves scripture. I would like to add illumination to this list, but sadly, I am unable to discern what scripture has been illuminated by the Holy Spirit to me and which is from my own mind. I am convinced that the truth feels exactly the same as does error as per 1 Cor 8: 2:
And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
And 1 Cor 13: 9, 12:
9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
To me the truth of each doctrine is like a giant puzzel with little pieces gradually added with study and often takes some time for any picture of the truth becomes apparent.

Because of this and over time. I have come to the conclusion that unity of the Spirit does not include unity of doctrines. If we all held the same opinions in our doctrines, we'd have no reason to discuss scripture and to study the proofs for what I believe to be true. There would be no knowing in part or seeing the truth through a dark glass. This doesn't apply to core doctrines like those found in the apostle's creed, some things must be agreed upon or we'd end up accepting cults and their twisting of scripture and who Jesus actually is.
For an example: take the diversity of the gifts of the Spirit as per 1 Cor 12: 4, 6, 11:
4) Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 6) And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
We are to have several gifts, if we desire the best gifts. Even the same gift will operate differently from one person to another. BTW: Each gift of the Spirit operates by faith so if you don't believe, your promised gift will not activate. As per Rom 11: 29: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
So unity of the Spirit applies to core doctrines; spiritual maturity; acceptancce of diversity, or else how can iron sharpen iron; and a shared vision and outreach to be accomplished as per Eph 4: 12-16:
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Please ignore what's below this point!

G,

I agree with almost everything you said, but I have a few comments:

Scripture may have been inspired in the original language including figurative language, but because we do not know which text is the original, we must be content with confidence that God has made available to us sufficiently accurate copies.

Yes, context is important and the hermeneutical method of interpreting scripture with other scripture as much as possible, connecting dots or sewing them together with spiritual thread.

Yes, since we do not have direct illumination, our discernment may contain error, so we should be humble = teachable, willing to amend former understanding per 1 Cor 8: 2 & 1 Cor 13: 9, 12.

I agree that learning truth is like working a jigsaw puzzle or solving a maze, which I do by means of what I call the Propensity Principle: An unbiased truthseeker has a propensity to hope that Christianity is essentially correct.

When you say that unity of the Spirit does not include unity of doctrines, I think you mean except for agreement on one Gospel of Christ, but possibly agreeing to disagree about doctrines that we learn after the Gospel, because you said "This doesn't apply to core doctrines like those found in the apostle's creed, some things must be agreed upon or we'd end up accepting cults and their twisting of scripture and who Jesus actually is." I distinguish these two categories by the Greek terms kerygma (proclamation of the Gospel) and didache (secondary teachings) on the Kerygma thread.

Yes, if we all held the same opinions in our doctrines, Christian Chat would be moot!

I love your recognition of the diversity of the gifts of the Spirit as per 1 Cor 12: 4, 6, 11.

So, even though we have unity of the Spirit because of agreement on the kerygma, we ought to strive for doctrinal unity as we persevere in learning God's Word until the day we die per Eph 4: 12-16.

You are the first person I have met on Chat who seems to approach faith via the same wavelength I do, quoting the same Scriptures and making the same points. I hope many others will join us in the quest for oneness in answer to the prayer of Jesus in JN 17!

 

[glf]

G,

I agree with almost everything you said, but I have a few comments:

Scripture may have been inspired in the original language including figurative language, but because we do not know which text is the original, we must be content with confidence that God has made available to us sufficiently accurate copies.

Yes, context is important and the hermeneutical method of interpreting scripture with other scripture as much as possible, connecting dots or sewing them together with spiritual thread.

Yes, since we do not have direct illumination, our discernment may contain error, so we should be humble = teachable, willing to amend former understanding per 1 Cor 8: 2 & 1 Cor 13: 9, 12.

I agree that learning truth is like working a jigsaw puzzle or solving a maze, which I do by means of what I call the Propensity Principle: An unbiased truthseeker has a propensity to hope that Christianity is essentially correct.

When you say that unity of the Spirit does not include unity of doctrines, I think you mean except for agreement on one Gospel of Christ, but possibly agreeing to disagree about doctrines that we learn after the Gospel, because you said "This doesn't apply to core doctrines like those found in the apostle's creed, some things must be agreed upon or we'd end up accepting cults and their twisting of scripture and who Jesus actually is." I distinguish these two categories by the Greek terms kerygma (proclamation of the Gospel) and didache (secondary teachings) on the Kerygma thread.

Yes, if we all held the same opinions in our doctrines, Christian Chat would be moot!

I love your recognition of the diversity of the gifts of the Spirit as per 1 Cor 12: 4, 6, 11.

So, even though we have unity of the Spirit because of agreement on the kerygma, we ought to strive for doctrinal unity as we persevere in learning God's Word until the day we die per Eph 4: 12-16.

You are the first person I have met on Chat who seems to approach faith via the same wavelength I do, quoting the same Scriptures and making the same points. I hope many others will join us in the quest for oneness in answer to the prayer of Jesus in JN 17!

In each topic, there is only one correct viewpoint or truth. As we contine searching scripture the Holy Spirit will add to one's illumination, here a little and there a little and even though we're unble to discern which beliefs are composed of illuminated scripture, that absolute amount of truth will contine to increse with every miraculous addidtion by the Holly Spirit. The scriptures are eternal and the New Covenant seems to address sin at an increased level when compared to the old testament. I wouldn't be surprised that our transformations into Jesus' moral image will continue even after we've entered into our redemption and have put on immortality.
Take calvinism and Armeneism: I consider both positions to be in error. We have a free will, but the call to election is also required. This call is attained via a duel effort on the part of the Holy Spirit and a faithful member of the body of Christ. That the Lord knows the end from the beginning doesn't mean he dictates our choises as I consider time to be created also and from the Lord's perspective, right now he is with Adam and Eve; right now he is with us here; and right now he is with those who may survice the end of the millennium fo Jesus' reign. It image this truth to be like a tapestry made by the Lord, composes of individual strands composed of our choises as we make a pilgramiage through life.

 

[GWH]

In each topic, there is only one correct viewpoint or truth. As we contine searching scripture the Holy Spirit will add to one's illumination, here a little and there a little and even though we're unble to discern which beliefs are composed of illuminated scripture, that absolute amount of truth will contine to increse with every miraculous addidtion by the Holly Spirit. The scriptures are eternal and the New Covenant seems to address sin at an increased level when compared to the old testament. I wouldn't be surprised that our transformations into Jesus' moral image will continue even after we've entered into our redemption and have put on immortality.
Take calvinism and Armeneism: I consider both positions to be in error. We have a free will, but the call to election is also required. This call is attained via a duel effort on the part of the Holy Spirit and a faithful member of the body of Christ. That the Lord knows the end from the beginning doesn't mean he dictates our choises as I consider time to be created also and from the Lord's perspective, right now he is with Adam and Eve; right now he is with us here; and right now he is with those who may survice the end of the millennium fo Jesus' reign. It image this truth to be like a tapestry made by the Lord, composes of individual strands composed of our choises as we make a pilgramiage through life.

Yes, there is only one correct interpretation, although there may be various applications.

Yes, spiritual growth occurs incrementally as we feed upon Scripture; there seems to be a direct correlation of GW with the HS.

Yes, the NT specifies or adds more sins in the moral arena and deletes many of the OT commands that were part of the Sacrificial system designed to separate Israel from the Gentiles.

I also wouldn't be surprised that we continue to learn and become more like Christ in heaven; it surely won't be a boring cloud!

Calvinism and Arminianism seem opposite, but when harmonized/synthesized we do indeed arrive closer to the truth that God is sovereign but allows volition within limits.

The Lord knows the end from the beginning, but how without determining/dictating it is beyond my understanding, just as I don't understand how Einstein combined time with space in physics.

I like your tapestry metaphor as the strands correspond with the spiritual thread I mentioned previously.

Pilgrims, through this earthly life, pressing on toward the goal of heaven (PHP 3:12-14), yes!

 

[homwardbound]

Yes, there is only one correct interpretation, although there may be various applications.

Yes, spiritual growth occurs incrementally as we feed upon Scripture; there seems to be a direct correlation of GW with the HS.

Yes, the NT specifies or adds more sins in the moral arena and deletes many of the OT commands that were part of the Sacrificial system designed to separate Israel from the Gentiles.

I also wouldn't be surprised that we continue to learn and become more like Christ in heaven; it surely won't be a boring cloud!

Calvinism and Arminianism seem opposite, but when harmonized/synthesized we do indeed arrive closer to the truth that God is sovereign but allows volition within limits.

The Lord knows the end from the beginning, but how without determining/dictating it is beyond my understanding, just as I don't understand how Einstein combined time with space in physics.

I like your tapestry metaphor as the strands correspond with the spiritual thread I mentioned previously.

Pilgrims, through this earthly life, pressing on toward the goal of heaven (PHP 3:12-14), yes!

Bottom line: We do not get because

Job 36:11
If they obey and serve him, they shall spend their days in prosperity, and their years in pleasures.
Thinking that above is what has got people in discourse, a selfishness not true love

James 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
James 1:6
But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
James 4:2
Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
James 4:3
Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
today is time to repent (Not over and over again as taught by religion) repent means to change one's mind from selfishness to God's love for them. Love your enemies as God has loved you first! How has God loved me first? and everyone else?
Romans 3:25
whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

How fast is any sin past? Before anyone can repent or even blink an eye, Thank you God wow, woe is me

1. 1 John 2:2
   and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. 1 John 4:10
   Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
   
   

 

[GWH]

Bottom line: We do not get because {accidentally deleted}

HB,

Job 36:11 expresses the truth that people who follow God's moral will tend to prosper materially as well as spiritually, unless some sort of disaster occurs.

James 1:5&6 is true but does not teach that wisdom means applying God's Word, which must first be learned (EPH 4:11-13).

For example, people who lust and kill have not learned and applied the TOJ in MT 5.

James 4:3 teaches us to pray in accordance with God's Word/Will rather than lust.

Romans 3:25 teaches that when Christians sin, they are forgiven as long as they persevere in faith and learning God's Word--and 1JN 2:2 teaches that all souls may repent and be forgiven because of Christ's propitiation.

Re 1 John 4:10: Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Amen! "Love lifted me, when nothing else could help..."

 

[GWH]

I began by sharing that I have come to value two NT teachings as key points from which to triangulate or use to guide my interpretation of the Bible: First, God loves and wants to save everyone (1TM 2:3-4); Second, God is just (2THS 1:6a, cf. RM 3:25-26 & 9:14, DT 32:4, PS 36:6, LK 11:42, RV 15:3). I find this hermeneutic affirmed in the OT (PS 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Triangulate from God’s love & justness.

This principle leads me to conclude that even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice. The writer of Hebrews (12:4-11) indicates that divine wrath is intended as discipline or for the purpose of teaching people to repent of their hatefulness and faithlessness (PR 3:12, IS 33:14-15 RV 3:19). If a righteous explanation cannot be found for a passage of Scripture purporting to describe God’s will, then it should be considered as historical or descriptive of what people perceived rather than as pedagogical or prescriptive of God’s nature. Unrighteous rage should not be attributed to God.

The justice of God is a source of comfort and joy to those who have decided to accept His loving Lordship, but it is experienced as judgment or wrath and ultimately hell by those who rebel against Him (IS 13:13, RM 1:18, RV 19:11). The fire that warms (purifies) also burns (punishes). Stating God’s requirement for salvation negatively: a person would do well (be wise) not to reject Him in order not to experience the miserable but just consequence (JN 3:17-18). Just consequences teach good behavior.

Before continuing I would like to ask whether everyone is comfortable with their understanding of God's wrath and confident of their ability to explain why hell is just.

 

[GWH]

Not sure that I believe everyone can justify hell, so just in case please allow me to offer you a few links for your armor (EPH 6:11&13).

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.

The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

So, such evil people punish/torture themselves by experiencing delayed karma, just as those who experience appropriate justice during this earthly existence also punish themselves or reap what they have sown and send themselves to jail. This view makes souls responsible for breaking the rules rather than blaming evil on the judges (or Judge) who enforce the rules.

The purpose of earthly punishment is to promote repentance, but the reason for retribution in hell is to attain justice. It is difficult to imagine, but somehow even someone as evil as Hitler will receive perfect justice, perhaps experiencing the agony of the millions of deaths he caused in accordance with the principal of “eye for eye” (MT 5:38), after which their souls are destroyed forever (per JN 17:12, RM 9:22, GL 6:8, PHP 3:19, 2THS 1:9 & 2PT 3:7).

 

[glf]

The law is the counterbalance between life and death and Judgement at the last day is the fulcrum between the two.
1 Jn 3: 4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 3: 19, 23: Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

At the great white throne judgement which will occur after the end of this world; a second death awaits. This death is offset by an equal measure of atonement. Jesus' infinie sacrifice of love was made to fairley absolve an infinite punishment. His sacrifice is able to meet the needs of every single person who has ever lived because infinite X infinite still only equals infinite. I imagine that the Lord, who knows the end from the beginning, knew that our free will, made after his likeness, would lead each of us, sooner or later into sin. Making both the angels and mankind without a free will would be like making the rocks praise him throughout eternity, which had to be of a minimal value to him. While loosing the entirety of those whom he loved, as he did Jesus or even himself, one after another; also had to be anathema. Thus, life and death hinge upon repentance which offers mankind the choise of forgiveness rather than judgement. I suspect, that the Lord's design choises gain him the most souls possible in an equitable free will system. The Lord doesn't just posess an infinite love and a perfect sense of justice, he is also omnicient, omnipresent, eternal, and immutable which make his ways as far aove our ways as the heavens are above the earth.

 

[GWH]

The law is the counterbalance between life and death and Judgement at the last day is the fulcrum between the two.
1 Jn 3: 4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 3: 19, 23: Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

At the great white throne judgement which will occur after the end of this world; a second death awaits. This death is offset by an equal measure of atonement. Jesus' infinie sacrifice of love was made to fairley absolve an infinite punishment. His sacrifice is able to meet the needs of every single person who has ever lived because infinite X infinite still only equals infinite. I imagine that the Lord, who knows the end from the beginning, knew that our free will, made after his likeness, would lead each of us, sooner or later into sin. Making both the angels and mankind without a free will would be like making the rocks praise him throughout eternity, which had to be of a minimal value to him. While loosing the entirety of those whom he loved, as he did Jesus or even himself, one after another; also had to be anathema. Thus, life and death hinge upon repentance which offers mankind the choice of forgiveness rather than judgement. I suspect, that the Lord's design choices gain him the most souls possible in an equitable free will system. The Lord doesn't just possess an infinite love and a perfect sense of justice, he is also omniscient, omnipresent, eternal, and immutable which make his ways as far above our ways as the heavens are above the earth.

Amen!

 

[GWH]

Other important elements in what I believe to be a Bible-based hermeneutic include the following.

First, everyone lives by fallible faith/belief/opinion and sufficient knowledge of evidence rather than by absolute certainty or proof or coercion (2CR 5:7).

Second, a logical train of thought (which I share on the Apologetics thread) leads an unbiased truthseeker to have a propensity to believe in an all-loving God, who is not tricky and does not hide the way to heaven (HB 11:6, ACTS 13:10).

Third, humanity’s understanding of God evolved or progressed through the millenniums, so that the OT was superseded by the NT, which is the apex of divine revelation (HB 7:18, 8:13, 9:15).

The method employed in this hermeneutic is additive or eclectic as taught by Paul (in 1THS 5:21), exemplified by Jesus (in MT 4:6-7) and illustrated by the transparent overlays of bodily systems found in some books on anatomy. I want to include all true assertions in the picture of reality without making a “Procrustean Body” by cutting off or ignoring parts that do not seem to fit, because the correct understanding must be self-consistent or else God would be tricky. The whole truth combines parts without sawing!

 

[GWH]

Seeing no one claiming to have infallible understanding of GW, denying that open-minded truthseekers should be pre-disposed to hope they might go to heaven via God's Way, or objecting to the hermeneutical method of Jesus and Paul, I will continue sharing a few more details for your consideration.

The Bible says God’s Spirit is love and truth (1JN 4:8 & 5:6), which means all love (agape, RM 6:5-8) in all people is God’s operation, and all truth in all cultures is God’s revelation. Thus, becoming a Christian theist does not mean rejecting what is good and true in one’s pre-Christian experience or culture.

As the philosopher Hegel taught: when considering two different understandings (thesis A versus antithesis B), the truth may not be either one or the other but rather the proper harmonization of the two. (Both A and B = synthesis C.) [BTW, this is about the only tenet of Hegel I understand and affirm ;^]

The Bible teaches (GN 1:3, JN 1:1-3) that both the world and inspired words are expressions of God’s Word/Logos, and thus scientific and spiritual truths must be compatible or else God would be tricky. So, while belief that God is love and Jesus is Lord is based upon the biblical revelation, knowledge also is gleaned from the natural sciences and common sense. While my interpretation of reality is influenced by the Bible, I utilize logical thinking, especially where the Bible seems silent, hoping that I am guided by the Spirit of Truth (JN 14:17).

I believe everyone ought to embrace this ecumenical hermeneutic. Logic is a way every sane soul can have access to the supreme Mind or Logos (1CR 2:11-16). Right logic is the glue that binds all individual truths together in one catholic or universal faith.

Logic provides the rationale for believing that the history of humanity is not a farce, and it sustains the hope of experiencing love and joy in a future heavenly existence. The beauty of this hermeneutic is the harmonization of whatever is good and true in all religions or isms.

However, I realize that—just as frequently happens when a person shares favorite musical or scenic beauty with someone else—it may not move your soul like mine (MT 11:16-17).