God does give people the ability to believe in Him. How can they believe unless they hear? And how can the hear unless someone tells them? And how can they tell unless they are sent by God? Certainly God give us the ability to believe the gospel by giving us a gospel to believe. But that does not equate to God giving the ability to believe the gospel after we have heard it.
Hermeneutics: Interpreting Scripture
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"Of themselves" can mean several things. Your premises need to precisely state what is being proposed, otherwise we will all be reading our own meanings into the premises and assuming others, in accepting the same premises, are accepting our particular understanding of what those premises are proposing. We will be speaking at cross purposes.
Of themselves does not mean via their own work, if it is via their own faith. Faith is not work.
Of themselves does not mean via their own work, if it is via their own faith. Faith is not work.
And even works can manifest faith, but our purpose on this thread is to avoid playing ping-pong and proceed via SBS
from a starting point to a comprehensive conclusion, so our responses should always be constructive. Therefore,
if my premise is imprecise, please state your improvement. Thanks.
Because you have joined us, I will repost what we had begun to discuss (which was post #132 on the UGE thread) with my comments:
1. "You are correct, God does know that, and by that He also knows that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word. He knows the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things.
[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
I have pointed out that children raised in accordance with God's "plan A for parenting" to love Jesus as Lord from infancy (e.g. Timothy per 2Tim. 3:15-17) fit this description only if they repudiate such faith. Passages such as Jer. 17:9 seem to refer to unbelievers/those with a callous heart as Jesus cited in Matt. 13:14-15.
2. "He knows that natural man, being natural man, is unrighteous; that they have no spiritual understanding; that none can seek after Him [Rom 3:10-12 KJV] 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
I guess you are aware that Matt. 7:7 and Heb. 11:6 indicate it is possible to seek God, so how can these apparently contradictory types of Scripture be harmonized?
3. "He knows that He alone must give them a new heart, new spirit and a renewed mind, which only comes from salvation. Until and unless saved, they will never come to true spiritual wisdom. [Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
It is not disputed that God must provide salvation, but rather whether God does so only for some, which would contradict Scriptures in the vein of John 3:16, Rom. 2:9-11, Eph. 6:9, 2Pet. 3:9, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Tit. 2:11 & Ezek. 33:11. So how can we jibe these two sets of Scripture?
4. "He knows that natural man is spiritually dead in sin and being spiritually dead, incapable of doing anything to give themselves spiritual life - that He must first forgive their sins, and from that, they obtain spiritual life; from spiritual life, comes spiritual understanding, not the reverse. [Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
The problematic part is the same as for #3 and also how to harmonize with Scripture teaching that sinners are saved if they believe in Jesus as Lord, with "if" indicating a condition of accepting God's grace that they must cooperate in satisfying. So again, how to harmonize?
5. "He knows that by the wisdom of natural man, that natural man can never find wisdom. [1Co 2:13-14 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned."
If wisdom means saving faith, then the problem is the same as for #3 & 4.
6. "He knows that natural man cannot even understand the tenets of salvation until their sins have first been forgiven them [Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,"
This verse refers to John the Baptist telling people to repent in order to be forgiven (Luke 3:3), so it actually disagrees with your point.
7. "He knows that we are all completely dependent upon His grace and mercy for salvation - which mercy and grace He does not impart to everyone - we can contribute nothing to the receiving of it but to be its recipients: it cannot be purchased, nor deserved, nor taken by force, nor by works - it is completely and in its fullness a gift from Him alone in all ways, given only to those whom He has chosen for it, it being out of the reach or power of man. Should we have to make any contribution at all for it, then we would be co-saviors with Christ, but Christ alone is the Savior. Instead, we are first saved, and from/by that, given the attributes of salvation which follow it - those of a Christian - such as true faith - which come through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
from a starting point to a comprehensive conclusion, so our responses should always be constructive. Therefore,
if my premise is imprecise, please state your improvement. Thanks.
Because you have joined us, I will repost what we had begun to discuss (which was post #132 on the UGE thread) with my comments:
1. "You are correct, God does know that, and by that He also knows that no one of themselves will/can be receptive to His word. He knows the heart of natural man is deceitful above all things.
[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
I have pointed out that children raised in accordance with God's "plan A for parenting" to love Jesus as Lord from infancy (e.g. Timothy per 2Tim. 3:15-17) fit this description only if they repudiate such faith. Passages such as Jer. 17:9 seem to refer to unbelievers/those with a callous heart as Jesus cited in Matt. 13:14-15.
2. "He knows that natural man, being natural man, is unrighteous; that they have no spiritual understanding; that none can seek after Him [Rom 3:10-12 KJV] 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."
I guess you are aware that Matt. 7:7 and Heb. 11:6 indicate it is possible to seek God, so how can these apparently contradictory types of Scripture be harmonized?
3. "He knows that He alone must give them a new heart, new spirit and a renewed mind, which only comes from salvation. Until and unless saved, they will never come to true spiritual wisdom. [Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. [Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
It is not disputed that God must provide salvation, but rather whether God does so only for some, which would contradict Scriptures in the vein of John 3:16, Rom. 2:9-11, Eph. 6:9, 2Pet. 3:9, 1Tim. 2:3-4, Tit. 2:11 & Ezek. 33:11. So how can we jibe these two sets of Scripture?
4. "He knows that natural man is spiritually dead in sin and being spiritually dead, incapable of doing anything to give themselves spiritual life - that He must first forgive their sins, and from that, they obtain spiritual life; from spiritual life, comes spiritual understanding, not the reverse. [Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
The problematic part is the same as for #3 and also how to harmonize with Scripture teaching that sinners are saved if they believe in Jesus as Lord, with "if" indicating a condition of accepting God's grace that they must cooperate in satisfying. So again, how to harmonize?
5. "He knows that by the wisdom of natural man, that natural man can never find wisdom. [1Co 2:13-14 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned."
If wisdom means saving faith, then the problem is the same as for #3 & 4.
6. "He knows that natural man cannot even understand the tenets of salvation until their sins have first been forgiven them [Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,"
This verse refers to John the Baptist telling people to repent in order to be forgiven (Luke 3:3), so it actually disagrees with your point.
7. "He knows that we are all completely dependent upon His grace and mercy for salvation - which mercy and grace He does not impart to everyone - we can contribute nothing to the receiving of it but to be its recipients: it cannot be purchased, nor deserved, nor taken by force, nor by works - it is completely and in its fullness a gift from Him alone in all ways, given only to those whom He has chosen for it, it being out of the reach or power of man. Should we have to make any contribution at all for it, then we would be co-saviors with Christ, but Christ alone is the Savior. Instead, we are first saved, and from/by that, given the attributes of salvation which follow it - those of a Christian - such as true faith - which come through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
I don't accept that the above premises derive from the scriptures cited. God has given us all a conscience and an intellect and an ability to observe reality and to believe, even the unregenerate. Therefore, we are innately able to hear God's description of what is good and what is true and we are innately able recognise it as good and true and we are innately able to believe it. The cited verses only point out our imperfection, not any absolute inability to do good or understand or seek after God. So, what need to be reconciled here?
Sometimes we are aware of what is true and we understand some things and we believe some true things. We are able sometimes to seek truth and good and the Creator, and sometimes to seek evil and lies. If , as we seek truth, good and the Creator, Jesus becomes the focus of our innate ability to observe, think, and discern what is good and we believe in Him with our innate faith, we are saved from our lost wandering and begin to be led by the Good Shepherd.
The apparent contradiction comes from the false assmuption that the Bible teaches original sin and total depravity. Drop Total Depravity and there is no apparent contradiction.
So, I guess if I am not on board with the premises and don't see any contradiction, this is not a discussion I need.
Sometimes we are aware of what is true and we understand some things and we believe some true things. We are able sometimes to seek truth and good and the Creator, and sometimes to seek evil and lies. If , as we seek truth, good and the Creator, Jesus becomes the focus of our innate ability to observe, think, and discern what is good and we believe in Him with our innate faith, we are saved from our lost wandering and begin to be led by the Good Shepherd.
The apparent contradiction comes from the false assmuption that the Bible teaches original sin and total depravity. Drop Total Depravity and there is no apparent contradiction.
So, I guess if I am not on board with the premises and don't see any contradiction, this is not a discussion I need.
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I guess we are discovering the difference between a SBS of Ephesians and a SBS of a doctrine.
We were hoping you would accept the challenge, but dialectical thinking is not for everyone.
The key premise is that it is possible to move logically from a Scriptural starting point
to a comprehensive conclusion or understanding of a doctrine, because as you premised,
"God has given us all a conscience and an intellect and an ability to observe reality and to believe".
Thus, I do not understand why you said "This is not a discussion I need."
You do not desire to be constructive? If you do want to work on this doctrine,
then please offer your precise improvement.
My intent if we achieve this goal is to be able to point people on UGE to enumerated answers to TULIP premises
(perhaps on our website) instead of playing proof-texting ping-pong. Thanks.
We were hoping you would accept the challenge, but dialectical thinking is not for everyone.
The key premise is that it is possible to move logically from a Scriptural starting point
to a comprehensive conclusion or understanding of a doctrine, because as you premised,
"God has given us all a conscience and an intellect and an ability to observe reality and to believe".
Thus, I do not understand why you said "This is not a discussion I need."
You do not desire to be constructive? If you do want to work on this doctrine,
then please offer your precise improvement.
My intent if we achieve this goal is to be able to point people on UGE to enumerated answers to TULIP premises
(perhaps on our website) instead of playing proof-texting ping-pong. Thanks.
Unless someone objects, I would like to try conducting this SBS of the doctrine of election in a different manner,
because I sense and share frustration that attempting to harmonize the TULIP and MFW viewpoints by analyzing
posts on the UGE thread is problematic.
I noted that the SDS of Ephesians is simpler, so I suggest beginning with what seems to be the well-head of the TULIP theology, Romans 9:10-24, and developing a comprehensive understanding of election by seeking to compare this passage with Scripture in the MFW vein. Of course, this will involve comparing the TULIP and MFW viewpoints.
What do you think about this idea/approach?
because I sense and share frustration that attempting to harmonize the TULIP and MFW viewpoints by analyzing
posts on the UGE thread is problematic.
I noted that the SDS of Ephesians is simpler, so I suggest beginning with what seems to be the well-head of the TULIP theology, Romans 9:10-24, and developing a comprehensive understanding of election by seeking to compare this passage with Scripture in the MFW vein. Of course, this will involve comparing the TULIP and MFW viewpoints.
What do you think about this idea/approach?
systematic Bible study (sorry for the typo on the second one), as we are conducting
regarding Ephesians, and is what I am suggesting in my post #587 regarding Romans 9:10-24,
in which passage the first pericope is v. 10-13. Please translate that for us,
and then studier can comment regarding the immediate context and
then I will add two cents worth regarding the broader context.
regarding Ephesians, and is what I am suggesting in my post #587 regarding Romans 9:10-24,
in which passage the first pericope is v. 10-13. Please translate that for us,
and then studier can comment regarding the immediate context and
then I will add two cents worth regarding the broader context.
Seeing no objection, I will proceed with providing the broader context found in Romans preceding the apparently pro-TULIP passage in ninth chapter.
The discussion of election begins in Romans 1:16, where Paul said “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.” This verse states that all sinners are saved when they believe the gospel, although it does not say that all sinners will believe it.
Romans 1:17, “For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: ‘The righteous will live by faith’.” This verse indicates that sinners who believe the gospel receive righteousness from God, which is contrasted with the wickedness of men in the rest of the chapter.
(How am I doing so far?)
The discussion of election begins in Romans 1:16, where Paul said “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.” This verse states that all sinners are saved when they believe the gospel, although it does not say that all sinners will believe it.
Romans 1:17, “For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: ‘The righteous will live by faith’.” This verse indicates that sinners who believe the gospel receive righteousness from God, which is contrasted with the wickedness of men in the rest of the chapter.
(How am I doing so far?)
I've been inspired to work a little more:
The indictment of wickedness continues in the second chapter of Romans until v. 4, “Do you show contempt for the riches of God’s kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that these are meant to lead you toward repentance?” This verse implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.
Romans 2:5, “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.” This verse suggests that although sinners are able to repent, they choose to resist God’s leading and not do so with the just consequence of condemning themselves to experiencing divine wrath when Judgment Day arrives. The truth that God graces sinner with the ability to choose either way (found in Deut. 30:19) is called moral free will (MFW).
The indictment of wickedness continues in the second chapter of Romans until v. 4, “Do you show contempt for the riches of God’s kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that these are meant to lead you toward repentance?” This verse implies that sinners are able to repent because of God’s leading.
Romans 2:5, “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.” This verse suggests that although sinners are able to repent, they choose to resist God’s leading and not do so with the just consequence of condemning themselves to experiencing divine wrath when Judgment Day arrives. The truth that God graces sinner with the ability to choose either way (found in Deut. 30:19) is called moral free will (MFW).
The reason God’s judgment is just is explained in the next few verses:
Romans 2:6, “God will give to each person according to what he has done.” This verse affirms what some people call karma or reaping what a person sows.
Romans 2:7, “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” This verse connects doing good with sinners electing to seek glory, honor and immortality.
“Glory” refers to godliness, goodness or praise-worthiness (Exod. 14:4, 1Chron. 16:24-36), “honor” connotes honorable or moral behavior (1Cor. 6:20, 1Thes. 4:4) and “immortality” necessitates a resurrected or translated heavenly body (1Cor. 15:42-54).
“Seeking” echoes what Jesus commanded in Matthew 7:7, “...Seek and you will find…”. “Persistence” connects saving faith with persevering faith (Heb. 10:36, Jam. 1:3-4), implying the possibility that some may exercise MFW by choosing not to believe “from first to last” (2Tim. 4:7, 1Tim. 1:19, Matt. 10:22, Rom. 1:17) or to commit apostasy (Heb. 6:4-6).
Romans 2:6, “God will give to each person according to what he has done.” This verse affirms what some people call karma or reaping what a person sows.
Romans 2:7, “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.” This verse connects doing good with sinners electing to seek glory, honor and immortality.
“Glory” refers to godliness, goodness or praise-worthiness (Exod. 14:4, 1Chron. 16:24-36), “honor” connotes honorable or moral behavior (1Cor. 6:20, 1Thes. 4:4) and “immortality” necessitates a resurrected or translated heavenly body (1Cor. 15:42-54).
“Seeking” echoes what Jesus commanded in Matthew 7:7, “...Seek and you will find…”. “Persistence” connects saving faith with persevering faith (Heb. 10:36, Jam. 1:3-4), implying the possibility that some may exercise MFW by choosing not to believe “from first to last” (2Tim. 4:7, 1Tim. 1:19, Matt. 10:22, Rom. 1:17) or to commit apostasy (Heb. 6:4-6).
Paul elaborated what was said in Romans 2:6-7 and then stated a key truth:
Romans 2:11, “God does not show favoritism.” (Cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17) This verse teaches that God judges people justly, including those who elect to believe the gospel and those who stubbornly ignore His leading them to repent.
The basis of this judgment is indicated in 1Tim. 2:3-4, “God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth”, and the fact that some reject the truth indicates that His will or leading is resistible, which ability is another indication of MFW.
Another key truth is indicated in Romans 2:15, “Gentiles show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.” This verse may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God and God’s moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience, which is called natural revelation.
Thus, those who are unfamiliar with Scripture have no good excuse or reason for choosing atheism and evil,
which implies they are able to cooperate with God’s leading sufficiently to satisfy God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) or election.
Romans 2:11, “God does not show favoritism.” (Cf. Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17) This verse teaches that God judges people justly, including those who elect to believe the gospel and those who stubbornly ignore His leading them to repent.
The basis of this judgment is indicated in 1Tim. 2:3-4, “God our Savior wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth”, and the fact that some reject the truth indicates that His will or leading is resistible, which ability is another indication of MFW.
Another key truth is indicated in Romans 2:15, “Gentiles show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.” This verse may be combined with Romans 1:20 to teach that God and God’s moral nature or will may be perceived via creation and conscience, which is called natural revelation.
Thus, those who are unfamiliar with Scripture have no good excuse or reason for choosing atheism and evil,
which implies they are able to cooperate with God’s leading sufficiently to satisfy God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) or election.
systematic Bible study (sorry for the typo on the second one), as we are conducting
regarding Ephesians, and is what I am suggesting in my post #587 regarding Romans 9:10-24,
in which passage the first pericope is v. 10-13. Please translate that for us,
and then studier can comment regarding the immediate context and
then I will add two cents worth regarding the broader context.
regarding Ephesians, and is what I am suggesting in my post #587 regarding Romans 9:10-24,
in which passage the first pericope is v. 10-13. Please translate that for us,
and then studier can comment regarding the immediate context and
then I will add two cents worth regarding the broader context.
Rom 9:10 And not only this (οὐ μόνον δέ) ; but also (ἀλλὰ καὶ) Rebecca (Ῥεβέκκα) out of one (ἐξ ἑνὸς) conception (κοίτην) having (ἔχουσα, present active participle), Isaac (Ἰσαὰκ) from the Father (τοῦ πατρὸς) of us (ἡμῶν·)
Rom 9:11 For not yet (μήπω γὰρ) having been born (γεννηθέντων, aorist passive participle), neither (μηδὲ) having done (πραξάντων, aorist active participle) any good ( τι ἀγαθὸν) or evil (ἢ κακόν), so that ( ἵνα) the ( ἡ ) according to election (κατ᾽ ἐκλογὴν) of the God (τοῦ θεοῦ) purpose (πρόθεσις) might be standing (μένῃ) not out of works, (οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων) but (ἀλλ᾽) of him the one calling (ἐκ τοῦ καλοῦντος, present active participle)
Rom 9:12 It was said (ἐρρήθη, aorist passive indicative) to her, (αὐτῇ) that (ὅτι ) "The elder (Ὁ μείζων) shall do service (δουλεύσει) to the younger (τῷ ἐλάσσονι)."
Rom 9:13 Just as (καθὼς) it has been written (γέγραπται), the Jacob (Τὸν Ἰακὼβ ) I loved (ἠγάπησα, aorist active indicative), but Esau (τὸν δὲ Ἠσαῦ) I hated (ἐμίσησα).
9:10 And not only this, but Rebecca being pregnant from one, from our father Isaac - for the children not yet having been born, nor having done any good or evil, so that the purpose that is according to God's choice might obtain, God's choice is not determined out of works already done, but is purely the choice of the one calling). So, it was said to her (2170 years before Christ was born),
" The elder shall serve the younger." Just as it has been written (1620 years later),
"Jacob I loved recently, and preserved in order to be faithful to my covenant with Jacob; but Esau I hated recently, and handed over to his enemies, in accordance with my faithfulness to my covenant with Jacob when I said, "Those who bless you I will bless, and those who curse you I will curse."
.
Re "There is no benefit in trying to reconcile a premise that is erroneous with a premise that is true.": I agree,
but I was attempting to focus on the Scripture that was cited to support the error, interpreting it correctly,
which I still think we may wind up doing during our SBS, but we will see what develops.
Thanks for the translation, and I have two questions regarding it: 1. Does is support the view that Jacob's election
was for the purpose of providing Messiah for the potential salvation of both Jews and Gentiles? And
2. Does the verbiage mean that Jacob was saved/elected and Esau was condemned unconditionally?
As you see, I have begun presenting passages in Romans relevant for understanding the d.o.e.
by way of the broader preceding context.
but I was attempting to focus on the Scripture that was cited to support the error, interpreting it correctly,
which I still think we may wind up doing during our SBS, but we will see what develops.
Thanks for the translation, and I have two questions regarding it: 1. Does is support the view that Jacob's election
was for the purpose of providing Messiah for the potential salvation of both Jews and Gentiles? And
2. Does the verbiage mean that Jacob was saved/elected and Esau was condemned unconditionally?
As you see, I have begun presenting passages in Romans relevant for understanding the d.o.e.
by way of the broader preceding context.
Romans 2:25-29 introduces the concept of spiritual circumcision of the heart as crucial for every soul,
even though Jews have an advantage of knowing or being conscious of sin because of the words of God
revealed in the Law of Moses and other prophets (Rom. 3:1-2 & 20-21).
Paul returns to explaining the doctrine of election or salvation in Romans 3:21: “Now a righteousness from God, apart from the Law, has been made known, to which the Law and Prophets testify” This verse takes up where Romans 1:17 left off, indicating that previous revelation prepared the way for the new knowledge/Gospel.
Romans 3:22, “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe—there is no difference.”
“Through faith” is in the same vein as Ephesians 2:8, and “in Jesus Christ” is the phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate salvation/election (s/e). “To all” signifies that all sinners may believe/be saved (1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16), and “no difference” means there is no favoritism, reiterating 2:11.
even though Jews have an advantage of knowing or being conscious of sin because of the words of God
revealed in the Law of Moses and other prophets (Rom. 3:1-2 & 20-21).
Paul returns to explaining the doctrine of election or salvation in Romans 3:21: “Now a righteousness from God, apart from the Law, has been made known, to which the Law and Prophets testify” This verse takes up where Romans 1:17 left off, indicating that previous revelation prepared the way for the new knowledge/Gospel.
Romans 3:22, “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe—there is no difference.”
“Through faith” is in the same vein as Ephesians 2:8, and “in Jesus Christ” is the phrase Paul used eleven times in Ephesians 1:3-14 to indicate salvation/election (s/e). “To all” signifies that all sinners may believe/be saved (1Tim. 2:3-4, John 3:16), and “no difference” means there is no favoritism, reiterating 2:11.
1. I don't think the passage refers directly to either messiahship or salvation. It simply affirms that God chooses for His purposes whom He wills, regardless of what that person may have done in their past. With hindsight, one could infer that one reason God was requiring the nation of Esau/Edom to care for the nation of Jacob and protect Israel was that God was intending to bring Messiah into the world through Jacob's descendants, Israel. But this is not the explicit claim of the text itself.
2. The passage neither mentions nor alludes to salvation. It simply allots preeminence to Jacob over Esau as a test of Esau's and Jacob's willingness to obey God and submit to His jurisdiction. Esau, the brother of Jacob, eventually submitted to God's prenatal decree. But Esau the nation rebelled against it and incurred God's disfavour until He began to hate Edom, and cut it off at the knees.
2. The passage neither mentions nor alludes to salvation. It simply allots preeminence to Jacob over Esau as a test of Esau's and Jacob's willingness to obey God and submit to His jurisdiction. Esau, the brother of Jacob, eventually submitted to God's prenatal decree. But Esau the nation rebelled against it and incurred God's disfavour until He began to hate Edom, and cut it off at the knees.
Okay, thanks. Hopefully studier will chime in soon.
As long as the passage does not mean God determines who is saved or not,
then I guess it can be deemed neutral in the TULIP-MFW debate.
Here is my next contribution to the pre-passage context:
Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” This verse means that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.
Romans 3:24, “And are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” “Justified” means saved or credited as righteous, “freely” refers to grace or the gift of justification not being earned or merited because of a sinners attempts to obey the Law (cf. v.27-28), and “Redemption” means that Christ paid the price.
As long as the passage does not mean God determines who is saved or not,
then I guess it can be deemed neutral in the TULIP-MFW debate.
Here is my next contribution to the pre-passage context:
Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” This verse means that no one can be good enough to earn salvation because of their own merit.
Romans 3:24, “And are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.” “Justified” means saved or credited as righteous, “freely” refers to grace or the gift of justification not being earned or merited because of a sinners attempts to obey the Law (cf. v.27-28), and “Redemption” means that Christ paid the price.