History of the Trinity

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watchmen

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#141
Apr 23, 2009
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#141
MahogonySnail said:
Pretribbers have never been in the majority and neither have Oneness.
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When I first came to the post trib conclusion I was the only person I had ever known that doubted the pretrib belief. I am not to concern about what the majarity believes, I only care what scripture actually teaches. I have studied the subject over and over again. It was not easy for me to let go of what I had always been taught, but truth prevailed and you nor the majarity is going to change my mnind. So you can give up the ''most of us believe it act'' alright. :)
 
sisterren11492

sisterren11492

Banned
#142
Aug 13, 2009
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#142
MahogonySnail said:
Pretribbers have never been in the majority and neither have Oneness. So it is a big call for you to make that the Trinity is wrong and that Trinitarians somehow don't know the bible or listen to the Spirit.
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Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#143
Jan 8, 2009
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#143
You may claim it is harmless but wrong understanding of God's nature is a key fundamental error.

Oneness denies the personality of God the Son, the Spirit, and the Father and confuses them.

Oneness denies their respective roles they have in unity and unison with one another.

Reading the scriptures with a Oneness view, makes Jesus out to be a madman - praying to Himself, talking to Himself, having Himself descend on Himself like a dove while He Himself speaks to Himself on earth from Heaven.

This is a key fundamental error and its effects spreads right through to the understanding of the cross - the "Father dying on the cross for the sins of mankind." It says the Father became a man and died for us, instead of saying that God sent His Son to die for us. Saying Jesus is the Father, contradicts the old testament idea of a sacrificial lamb being slain for the sins of the world. Oneness is equivalent to Abraham suiciding himself on the altar, rather than sacrificing and offering his only begotten son.

That goes for you too sisterren, quoting some narrow road verse to justify your beliefs (every minority cult does the same), you're all believing in heresy contrary to fundamental protestant belief and doesn't surprise me you aren't quoting from the Jehovah's Witnesses Watchtower magazine LOL. As far as modern day oneness theology goes, you only need to remember one number of the modern day origins of this theology - 1914 AD.

I will conclude with one statement which clearly states Jesus is the Son of the Father, not the Father.

2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

 
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watchmen

Banned
#145
Apr 23, 2009
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#145
MahogonySnail said:


Reading the scriptures with a Oneness view, makes Jesus out to be a madman - praying to Himself, talking to Himself, having Himself descend on Himself like a dove while He Himself speaks to Himself on earth from Heaven.
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Remember this you are the ione calling Christ a madman not us.
 
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watchmen

Banned
#146
Apr 23, 2009
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#146
MahogonySnail said:


I will conclude with one statement which clearly states Jesus is the Son of the Father, not the Father.

2Jn 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
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This shows you have no idea what you are talking about.. You are incapable of undertsnading the duality of Christ or the true distinction between the Father and Son.
 
R

roaringkitten

Guest
#147
#147
According to the "Athanasian Creed", "Whosoever will be saved; before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith.

But, according to the Word, it is necessary to believe on the Son of God to be saved:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:30-31

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:36

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24

Where in the Word of God does it say that in order for someone to be saved, they must adhere to the Catholic Church? Read the catechism, it speaks not according to the Word of God(Isaiah 8:20). The reason why there is so much confusion is because of the modern "versions" of the Bible. No Christian should be supporting the Catholic church, because they are sending multitudes to the lake of fire. Every Christian should be witnessing to that group, because they clearly have half-truths but not the entire truth. They pervert the simplicity of the gospel which will send many to hellfire. I dont say this to be unkind, I say this because I care for people who are being lulled into a false Christianity such as the Catholic religion. Every Christian that supports groups that teach ****able heresy will be accountable to God one day for it.


 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#148
Jan 8, 2009
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#148
You are incapable of undertsnading the duality of Christ or the true distinction between the Father and Son.
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ahh no that would be Oneness believers who don't know the difference between Father and Son and naively conclude they are the same.

Most people can easily see the distinction between Father and Son in a sentence such as 2 Jn 1:3. Another one is Rev. 5, where the Lamb (the Son) took the scroll from the one on the throne (the Father)

Rev 5:7 The Lamb went and took the scroll from the right hand of the one who sits on the throne.

Only the Lamb the Son was worthy to open the scroll.

Further distinction between the Lamb and God are seen (in bold):

Rev 5:9 They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to break open its seals. For you were killed, and by your sacrificial death you bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.

Further proof of the distinction between Father and Son as different persons is shown in John 14:23 but the plural "we" , and the distinction Jesus makes between Himself and the Father.

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
In a hypothetical Oneness bible this should read as:


Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and I will love him, and I will come unto him, and make myabode with him.


I
Remember this you are the ione calling Christ a madman not us.
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No I suggested that Oneness believers make Christ look like a madman. Christ did not pray to the Father, he talked to Himself. That's quite a heresy. Why did Jesus teach them to pray to the Father in heaven if He was right with them on earth? It opens all sorts of problems.

Another heresy is that the Father died on the cross and not the Son according to Oneness belief. According to your belief, God suicided himself for us on the cross rather than condemning a sinless man to death. That's all it amounts to. It affects the way you view the crucifixion and also the atonement.

Oneness is a heresy, it was stamped out long ago in Christianity when it arose in 300 ad or thereabouts, it was revived in 1914. No protestant theologian would accept it today, nor Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican nor the greats like Spurgeon, nor Luther nor Calvin, . That puts you and all oneness believers out on your own as heretics and followers of last day false teachings. You may as well believe in pre-tribulation rapture and become Jehovah's Witnesses as well - they have more in common with your beliefs than most denominations.

 
J

Jsquared

Guest
#149
#149
I think Paul had some good words for this debate 1 Ti 3: "16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
 
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watchmen

Banned
#150
Apr 23, 2009
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#150
Jsquared said:
I think Paul had some good words for this debate 1 Ti 3: "16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
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I have already given that scripture multiple times, but their doctrine has blinded them from the truth.
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#151
Jan 8, 2009
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#151
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Acts 7:56 shows two people in heaven, not one. Your views are easily disproven.

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Try and explain that one.
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#152
Jan 8, 2009
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#152
Sorry I forgot to re-interpret those verses according to Oneness doctrine:

Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Father in His fleshly form standing on the right hand of the Father in His spiritual form.


1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of Himself; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


or an alternative version with gnostic overtones:

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of His spiritual form; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
 
W

watchmen

Banned
#153
Apr 23, 2009
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#153
MahogonySnail said:
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Acts 7:56 shows two people in heaven, not one. Your views are easily disproven.

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Try and explain that one.
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This is easily explained, not that you would ever accept the answer. When God decided to become a man that was not a 33 year desision it was an eternal desision. The ''MAN'' Jeesus christ is standing on the right hand of the Father.
 
Ryan1976

Ryan1976

Banned
#154
Jul 17, 2009
353
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#154
According to the "Athanasian Creed", "Whosoever will be saved; before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith.
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Like now, there were many folks out and about looking to label themselves "Christian" and even called their places of worship "churches". When The Church (the one's the Apostles founded) came up with creedal statements they did so often to set themselves apart from the world. They called themselves "catholic" because it means according to the whole. It was Apostolic meaning that the Apostles laid hands on and ordained their successors and so on and so forth down the line. They had jurisdictions. Ignatius is the first to use this word "catholic" (well, in regards to "written" history). They were One because they were all in communion (in agreement) with one another (one mind, one belief, one Faith - The Way). St. Ignaitus was a student of St. John, the beloved. He was Bishop of Antioch where St. Peter was first Bishop. The Church is also the body of Christ, so for the early Christians (as it should be today), they believed that you had to be a member of the One, Holy, Apostolic and Catholic Church.

But if we rip this stuff out of context, it sounds counter to the gospel when in fact it just serves to strengthen what the scriptures also point toward - Christ, through his visible body of believers.

The reason why there is so much confusion is because of the modern "versions" of the Bible.
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Perhaps we should teach the kids ancient Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic. Won't hurt but in no practical way,will it clear up the confusion they inherit (especially in the US).

No Christian should be supporting the Catholic church, because they are sending multitudes to the lake of fire. Every Christian should be witnessing to that group, because they clearly have half-truths but not the entire truth. They pervert the simplicity of the gospel which will send many to hellfire. I dont say this to be unkind, I say this because I care for people who are being lulled into a false Christianity such as the Catholic religion.
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So your advice is that we change our statement of belief to that of the Many (denominations provided they aren't Catholic), Holey (doctrinally punny?), (can't think of what the opposite of Apostolic would be, Individualist? Pluralistic?) and Protestant (no such thing as non-denominational) Church?

Every Christian that supports groups that teach ****able heresy will be accountable to God one day for it.
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St. Ignatius agrees.

9 Be not deceived, brethren; if any one follows him that makes a schism in the church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks after any other opinion, he agrees not with the passion of Christ.
The EPISTLE of IGNATIUS to the PHILADELPHIANS (Chapter 1)



btw - heresy more literally translated means, "a different opinion,".
 
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MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#156
Jan 8, 2009
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#156
This is easily explained, not that you would ever accept the answer. When God decided to become a man that was not a 33 year desision it was an eternal desision. The ''MAN'' Jeesus christ is standing on the right hand of the Father.
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Do you think that Stephen saw two people in heaven or one?
 
MahogonySnail

MahogonySnail

Banned
#158
Jan 8, 2009
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#158
So there are two separate and distinct person's in heaven, one called the Father, one called the Son. The Son is not the man the Father became but the Son who was with the Father from the beginning. That is how things were before the Son was begotten and born of a Virgin, Jesus returned to His former glory He had with the Father before creation.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#159
#159
MahogonySnail said:
So there are two separate and distinct person's in heaven, one called the Father, one called the Son. The Son is not the man the Father became but the Son who was with the Father from the beginning. That is how things were before the Son was begotten and born of a Virgin, Jesus returned to His former glory He had with the Father before creation.
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So there is two gods, 3 actually according to Trinitarians and that's polytheistic, but of course the Father cannot be ssen, so only one can be seen according to the Bible whom is the exact representation of the unseen and they are both one and the same so I understand that there is one God, as oppossed to you who says there are at least 2 gods in heaven, well I don't know which heaven your talking about because in the real heaven there in only one God sitting on His throne.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

Guest
#160
#160
watchmen said:
He saw the Father and the Son. God the Father, and the Man He became.
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Yes and that would be one God. given that the Father is unseen and Jesus Christ is the visual exact physical appearance of the Father.
 
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