History of the Trinity

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Jan 8, 2009
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So there is two gods, 3 actually according to Trinitarians and that's polytheistic, but of course the Father cannot be ssen, so only one can be seen according to the Bible whom is the exact representation of the unseen and they are both one and the same so I understand that there is one God, as oppossed to you who says there are at least 2 gods in heaven, well I don't know which heaven your talking about because in the real heaven there in only one God sitting on His throne.
Correction - not two gods, one God in three persons. What Stephen saw was the two persons of the trinity.
The Father can be seen just not His face. The Father is likely a ball of light which is easily seen, a bright light of radiant glory to which no living man can approach. The Son of man was seen - Jesus as the ascended and glorified fleshly man He is.

There is one on the throne - yes , that is the Father. The Son sits at his right hand.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

So we have two person's in heaven, but only one sits on the throne that is the Father.
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

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Correction - not two gods, one God in three persons. What Stephen saw was the two persons of the trinity.
Stephen can only see what is visible, He saw the Father and Son, they are one, that's what the Bible says 'Me and the Father are one', can it be any clearer, there are not two, if there was then they are not one, it's quite simple actually.

The Father can be seen just not His face. The Father is likely a ball of light which is easily seen, a bright light of radiant glory to which no living man can approach. The Son of man was seen - Jesus as the ascended and glorified fleshly man He is.
Only His trailing glory, the Father cannot be looked upon by a human, Bible is quite clear about that, what Stephen is saying is that he saw is both the Father and Son in one figure and that figure is God, just one figure.

There is one on the throne - yes , that is the Father. The Son sits at his right hand.
"Right hand" has the power it does not refer to another person sitting ontop of the Father's actual right hand. It means as the Pharisees correctly interpreted when Jesus said He is on the right hand of God's power, meaning He claimed to be God Himself, that was the charge against Jesus, the fact that He claimed to be God Himself, the right hand is the strong hand of power, in Biblical terms.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
See above.

So we have two person's in heaven, but only one sits on the throne that is the Father.
Sorry, Jesus is on the Throne, that is who you will see on the Throne of Heaven, He is Lord, are you saying He is without a throne? what does He sit on wooden stool next to His Father?
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Stephen can only see what is visible, He saw the Father and Son, they are one, that's what the Bible says 'Me and the Father are one', can it be any clearer, there are not two, if there was then they are not one, it's quite simple actually.
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
He saw the Son of Man standing at the right hand side of God. That's what it says, take it or leave it. He saw two - the son of man, and God. If he did not see God, he would not have known Jesus was standing at his right hand.

Only His trailing glory, the Father cannot be looked upon by a human, Bible is quite clear about that, what Stephen is saying is that he saw is both the Father and Son in one figure and that figure is God, just one figure.
If he saw only one, he would have mentioned only the son of man or God, not both at the same time.



Sorry, Jesus is on the Throne, that is who you will see on the Throne of Heaven, He is Lord, are you saying He is without a throne? what does He sit on wooden stool next to His Father?
Heb 12:12 says is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. It does not say "is sat on the throne of God". You say Jesus is on the Throne. Scripture says He is at the right hand. Normally, you have a throne for the King, and the Son and family sits beside Him.

Christ is the successor to God's kingdom. As successor and heir apparent, Christ himself has a throne too. But this is at the right side of the Fathers. Jesus also promised His disciples would sit on thrones, 12 thrones (Mat 19:28).

Or if we think in terms of ancient battle chariots, they usually held two people. The Son rides with the Father in the one battle chariot sitting side by side:

Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

So in heaven I expect to see, the Father on His throne, and the Son on his throne. There shall be 12 thrones for the disciples and of course, they even had a big argument about who would sit in closer proximity to Christ.
 
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Jan 8, 2009
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This view of God on the throne and Jesus at the right hand, is the only one which matches to the whole of scripture. Here's why, Romans describes how the Son is mediator or go-between us and the Father. It says:

Rom 8:34 Who, then, will condemn them? Not Christ Jesus, who died, or rather, who was raised to life and is at the right side of God, pleading with him for us!


So here you have Christ sitting at the right side of God, pleading with God for us. This would not be possible if Christ and the Father are one and the same sitting on the one throne. So there you go, oneness is disproven yet again .

Here is the Oneness interpretation which makes no logical sense:

Rom 8:34 Who, then, will condemn them? Not Christ Jesus, who died, or rather, who was raised to life and is at the right side of Himself, pleading with Himself for us!

And so you have another situation where Christ is made out to be musing and talking to and pleading and trying to convince himself over what he should do. Rather than plain and simple reading of the scripture which is the two separate persons of Father and Son working together in unity and conversing with each other - which makes complete sense.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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This view of God on the throne and Jesus at the right hand, is the only one which matches to the whole of scripture. Here's why, Romans describes how the Son is mediator or go-between us and the Father. It says:

Rom 8:34 Who, then, will condemn them? Not Christ Jesus, who died, or rather, who was raised to life and is at the right side of God, pleading with him for us!


So here you have Christ sitting at the right side of God, pleading with God for us. This would not be possible if Christ and the Father are one and the same sitting on the one throne. So there you go, oneness is disproven yet again .

Here is the Oneness interpretation which makes no logical sense:

Rom 8:34 Who, then, will condemn them? Not Christ Jesus, who died, or rather, who was raised to life and is at the right side of Himself, pleading with Himself for us!

And so you have another situation where Christ is made out to be musing and talking to and pleading and trying to convince himself over what he should do. Rather than plain and simple reading of the scripture which is the two separate persons of Father and Son working together in unity and conversing with each other - which makes complete sense.
If it make sense to you to divide God, then go right ahead 'Snail, if you cannot understand what the 'Right Hand' is in Biblical terms, there is not much that I could say or do to help you understand.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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It makes sense to me to interpret each scripture the best I can, so how do you interpret:

Rom 8:34 Who, then, will condemn them? Not Christ Jesus, who died, or rather, who was raised to life and is at the right side of Himself, pleading with Himself for us!

Please explain how someone is at the right side of themself and pleading with themself for us.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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It makes sense to me to interpret each scripture the best I can, so how do you interpret:

Rom 8:34 Who, then, will condemn them? Not Christ Jesus, who died, or rather, who was raised to life and is at the right side of Himself, pleading with Himself for us!

Please explain how someone is at the right side of themself and pleading with themself for us.
Dear me, "Right Hand", OK has the important usage for theological consideration is the figurative expression on the omnipotence of God. for example Ex. 15:6 "Thy right hand O Lord is majestic power; Thy right hand, O Lord shatters the enemy" The almighty power of God, as is understood from His holy word is the power, that is the instrument, the right hand does it! "The Lord says to My Lord sit at my right hand" well how many Lord's are there? ONE!!!!!It's His right hand, He is omnipotent, His without peers, without limit, His power is infinite, of infinite dimension, not three sides or parts, INFINITE, OMNIPOTENT POWER< UNRESTAINED, WITHOUT MEASURE! WITHOUT AN EQUAL!
 
Jan 8, 2009
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You've defined what the right hand of God is. So how do you explain Romans 8:34 stating that Jesus sits at the right hand of God. We could argue that this is only figurative or symbolic, but that doesn't fit well with the vision of what Stephen literally saw. Have you tried yourself to sit at your own right hand? It's a bit awkward. Are you saying that Jesus is the Father's right hand?
 
C

Cup-of-Ruin

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You've defined what the right hand of God is. So how do you explain Romans 8:34 stating that Jesus sits at the right hand of God. We could argue that this is only figurative or symbolic, but that doesn't fit well with the vision of what Stephen literally saw. Have you tried yourself to sit at your own right hand? It's a bit awkward. Are you saying that Jesus is the Father's right hand?
It means Jesus Christ is the omnipotent power of God, just like that, that is how it reads, and seeming the father is unseen and invisible and Jesus Christ is the visible expression of God, then there is only one figure that can be seen, Christianity is a monotheistic religion, Christian have one God, who gave a new Name, see He is a living God, when He comes again He has a new Name as well, His name is whatever He want's it to be, that's what it means to be God, that's the idea of having a Creation so He can be God, that's His desire, His want, it all belongs to Him, in all His infinite power He wants complete and utter control over every single atom He has created, it all belongs to Him, and you know the human reprobate mind has a problem with this, this singular concentration of power makes some humans rather jealous, but God is jealous and His jealousy is much greater, as soon as Jesus claimed to be on the right hand of God, the pharisees went ballistic, they was it, He had claimed to be God and declared Himself God of Heaven and Earth and i'm sure the Devil has been trying to sweep that under the carpet sinse that day, but he does not fool me, I know Biblical languages and what the words mean, if you want to believe church published doctrine - go right ahead, yea sure truth just rolls off the Zondervan press, get bound and delivered to your door with a big ribbon and bow on it! You want truth then go to the throne of God get down on your knees and beg for the spirit to show you, it's the only way anybody gets an ounce of truth in this rotten corrupt world!
 
Jan 31, 2009
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You've defined what the right hand of God is. So how do you explain Romans 8:34 stating that Jesus sits at the right hand of God. We could argue that this is only figurative or symbolic, but that doesn't fit well with the vision of what Stephen literally saw. Have you tried yourself to sit at your own right hand? It's a bit awkward. Are you saying that Jesus is the Father's right hand?
yes I for one will say that He is God, If he wants to sit on the right side of Himself who are you to question God????
 
Jan 8, 2009
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He had claimed to be God and declared Himself God of Heaven and Earth
Incorrect, Jesus explained to them that he said he was the Son of God:

John 10:36 How, then, can you say that I blaspheme because I said that I am the Son of God?

Jesus referred to himself as the Son of God, not as God. The main problem the Jews had - was that God should have a Son , even a bastard born out of wedlock (for all they knew) ! And yes being a Son of God implies you are God yourself. But let's not confuse the roles of the Father and the Son.

He had claimed to be God and declared Himself God of Heaven and Earth and i'm sure the Devil has been trying to sweep that under the carpet sinse that day, but he does not fool me, I know Biblical languages and what the words mean, if you want to believe church published doctrine - go right ahead, yea sure truth just rolls off the Zondervan press, get bound and delivered to your door with a big ribbon and bow on it! You want truth then go to the throne of God get down on your knees and beg for the spirit to show you, it's the only way anybody gets an ounce of truth in this rotten corrupt world!
These are obviously some deeper issues you have with churches and christianity in general, which is probably fueling your heresies, on a number of different issues. But I wouldn't expect a person who can't even fathom the theory of gravity, to correctly grasp God's nature.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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How can someone be three separate people yet one?
To respond to this, I could use the emminent and well-learned pastor's ;) line of reasoning "well, God can be three separate people and one at the same time if he wants to"

But really, according to the Trinity doctrine, we never say they are three seperate people of the one same person, as if God is divided into thirds, but three person's of God working and agreeing in unity. According to the Nicene creed, if I remember correctly, "one God " is in reference to the Father almighty. In the scriptures, God usually means Father, and Son of God is referred to as Lord.


Like you have the right to askk questions like that, when you believe as you do.
As far as I reckon according to all mainstream Christian belief, you're the one with the variation to the norm, not me. You need to ask yourself what's your chances that you believing in 200-300 AD era heresies repopularlised since as late as 1914 are correct, given 1600 years of church history in between. As much chance as Jehovah's Witnesses who may claim they've always existed since the time of Christ.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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How can anyone sit on the right side of themself?
Do you understand what "Right hand" means? Nah dosen't matter, I forgot I'm talking to one of those people that believes that the moon's 'gravity' causes the ocean tides...
 
Jan 8, 2009
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I understand what right hand means. Do you understand what it means to see or describe someone at the right hand of someone else? It means there's two people there.

We even have the Lamb, Christ, taking the scroll from the right hand of the one who sits on the throne:

Rev 5:7 The Lamb went and took the scroll from the right hand of the one who sits on the throne.


So, the Lamb is not on the throne, that is the Father. The Lamb is at the right side of the Father, because he takes the scroll from the Father's right hand. Simple.

And Jesus's subordinate role to God the Father is clearly seen throughout scripture, from his time as a servant on the earth and even as the Son of God in heaven, where he still remains subject to God's will concerning the timing of His return, and placing all things under His feet.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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And Jesus's subordinate role to God the Father is clearly seen throughout scripture, from his time as a servant on the earth and even as the Son of God in heaven, where he still remains subject to God's will concerning the timing of His return, and placing all things under His feet.
AHHHAAA, I was waiting for this, see like I said, eventually the Trinitarian must degrade Jesus Christ and they always do, this is what the Spirit is going to divide by, which is the whole point of the wording of the Bible, it can only be interpreted with the guidence of the spirit, so this is where Trinitarians end up down the rabbit hole stating with all conviction that Jesus Christ is "subordinate" and that He is a "servant" and subject to God's will, and all this, etc, it comes to this everytime, one step away from outright denial of Christ, but given enough time the Trinitarian will do that as well.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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Well I thought you knew the scriptures. Jesus was under God's authority on earth and still is in heaven today.

Christ will only reign until all enemies are put under his feet, and then the Son will be subject to the Father:

1Co 15:24 then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.

1Co 15:25 for it is right for Him to reign until He has put all the enemies under His feet.

1Co 15:27 For He put all things under His feet. But when He says that all things have been put under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him who has put all things under Him.

1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all.

Joh 5:30Icanofmine own selfdonothing:asIhear,Ijudge:andmyjudgmentisjust;becauseIseeknotmine ownwill,butthewilloftheFatherwhichhathsentme.

Joh 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, The Son can do nothing of Himself but what He sees the Father do. For whatever things He does, these also the Son does likewise.

Joh 15:10Ifyekeepmycommandments,yeshallabideinmylove;even asIhavekeptmyFather'scommandments,andabideinhislove.
He had the nature of God (the Father), but was not God (the Father).
Php 2:6 He always had the nature of God, but he did not think that by force he should try to remain equal with God.
Php 2:7 Instead of this, of his own free will he gave up all he had, and took the nature of a servant. He became like a human being and appeared in human likeness.
Luk 7:8 For I also am a man set under authority, having under me soldiers. And I say to one, Go, and he goes; and to another, Come, and he comes; and to my servant, Do this, and he does it.

Mar 13:32 But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels in Heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.

Jesus even has to confess someone's name before the Father to show that person is approved:

Rev 3:5He that overcometh,the sameshallbeclothedinwhiteraiment;andIwillnotblot outhisnameoutofthebookoflife,butIwillconfesshisnamebeforemyFather,andbeforehisangels.


You may as well give up, Rev 3: 5 and so many other places show Christ and the Father as separate persons. Too many to count really.

And do you also know, that the Spirit is in a servant like role to the Son:

Joh 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth. For He shall not speak of Himself, but whatever He hears, He shall speak. And He will announce to you things to come.




Do you know that God the Father, Son and Spirit are all about servant-hood and humility even amongst themselves? God is servant-like and humble. For the God who greatly esteems the least to be the greatest, and the humble, it is no surprise that we find the Son of God serving and being subject to the Father, the Spirit to the Son, etc etc. , and it is not an offensive thing to say the Son is servant to God, it is actually honoring His nature. Since you fail to see that, you obviously don't know God, but probably one of these who see God as a kind of dictator rather than who He has revealed himself to be in the scripture. Well Muslims believe the same with "one God allah". And Muslims will never accept God is a humble servant to His creation and by nature, humble.


What is contrary to the scripture and who God has revealed himself to be, is your idea of the servant-like and humble Christ, changing nature into a power-hungry and authoritarian God, usurping His Father's authority in heaven and sitting on His Father's throne. No, that's not the real Christ, that's another Christ you believe in.
 
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Cup-of-Ruin

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Well I thought you knew the scriptures. Jesus was under God's authority on earth and still is in heaven today.

Christ will only reign until all enemies are put under his feet, and then the Son will be subject to the Father:

1Co 15:24 then is the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He makes to cease all rule and all authority and power.


.
1 Cor. 15:21

"For since death came by man, by man came also the resurrection from the dead, as all die in Adam shall all be be made alive in Christ."

See how it says "man", that "man" is Jesus Christ as the second Adam, when you are brought under His authority then all will be delivered to the Father, clearly we are nowhere near that stage, your subjection to Christ is then taken to be subjection to the Father, but you see how you deny Him, by saying He is subserviant, therefore imputationof subjection cannot take place and so it goes on and on, and everything just gets worse and worse, because they wont make Him Lord, and everybody is going to suffer and suffer until they finally get it! Get that He is Lord and there is no other, got to be subject to the Son first.
 
S

stillearning

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How can anyone sit on the right side of themself?
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE RIGHT HAND

This principle is especially true when the Bible speaks of the right hand of God. Since most humans are right-handed, in most cultures the right hand signifies strength, skill, and dexterity. The very word dexterity comes from the Latin word dexter, meaning "on the right side." In ancient times, the most honored guest was seated on the right hand of the host. As a result, in Hebrew, Greek, and English the right hand is a metaphor for power and honor.
The Bible uses this metaphor repeatedly with reference to humans as well as God. Of course, in some passages the Bible uses "right" or "right hand" in its locational meaning, in contrast to "left" or "left hand. " But many times the use of "right hand" is figurative. Since God does not have a physical right hand (apart from the Incarnation) and is not confined to a physical location, when the Bible speaks of His right hand, it speaks figuratively or metaphorically.
A study of the "right hand" passages in the Bible reveals that the right hand of God represents His almighty power, His omnipotence, particularly in bestowing salvation, deliverance, victory, and preservation. "My right hand hath spanned the heavens" (Isaiah 48:13). `Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.... Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them" (Exodus 15:6,12). "His right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory* (Psalm 98:1). "Thy right hand shall save me" (Psalm 138:7). "I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness" (Isaiah 41:10). There are numerous other examples where the Bible uses "right hand" as a metaphor for power. [1]
In Scripture, the right hand also signifies the position of honor, blessing, and preeminence. "At thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore" (Psalm 16:11). "Thy right hand is full of righteousness" (Psalm 48:10). "A wise man's heart is at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left" (Ecclesiastes 10:2).
When Jacob blessed Joseph's two sons, Joseph wanted him to put his right hand upon Manasseh, the older son, to signify that he would have preeminence. Joseph insisted, "This is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head" (Genesis 48:1. Jacob refused, in a reversal of normal procedure, saying, "Truly his younger brother shall be greater than he" (Genesis 48:19). (For other examples where the right hand means a position of favor or preeminence, see Exodus 29:20; Leviticus 8:23; 14:14-28; Psalm 45:9; 110:1; Jeremiah 22:24; Matthew 25:33-34.)
 
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