HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE NT]?

[Atwood]

HIZIKYAH POSTED [slightly edited by myself]
AT 1848926 in the Denial of Eternal Security is satanic thread the following:

"Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him.” (Acts16:3)Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole Law” (Gal5:2). 1 Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father (3962. patér) in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me." Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father (3962. patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."

I brought it here in a new thread:

Hizi, I start a new thread for you on your topic:

My response:

You will find some light on your circumcision gambit by checking out the significance of the Greek verb which you render above as "accepts circumcision." You might start a thread on the topic, "Are sins by Paul recorded in the NT, though the same NT puts forth Paul as an example for Chrs to follow."

Of course Paul was not perfect, but he is the only regular human put forth as our example by the word of God. And if Paul erred in behavior on occasion, it does not affect the fact that He was an apostle and prophet delivering God's word.

As to you ur 2nd issue, the word "call" does not mean the same thing as "became." If one is forbidden to be addressed as "father," that is not a prohibition from becoming someone's father.

IMHO: Paul erred by going to Jerusalem after his 3rd missionary journey. Romans 7 indicates that Paul had at least one experience of being a carnal Christian. Prophets sin (as all Christians do).

 

[Mitspa]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

Paul said he had him circumcised to protect him from the Jews... not to try and justify him by works....

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[ISeeYou]

I was looking at that before awhile back as this come up, I'll just copy the verses and commenting I made on the same here.

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Even as he says,

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Whereas Paul says,

Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Phil 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

But from here if you look again ...

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

To here... where its called the yoke and tempting God

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

And this is of those "which believed" (and yet were trying to yolk the disciples of the Lord with circumcision). They are considered "false brethren" trying to bring others back into bondage (under that yoke)

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

These are "constraining others" to it

Gal 6:12 As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.

But if we back up... Titus felt no compulsion whatsoever (as Paul states)

Gal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

Thus Titus (according to the witness of Paul) has shown he has great confidence established in Christ Jesus (and none in the flesh) whatsoever. His not being "compelled to" it (as they constrain others "to it") has shown no effect in Titus, and establishes "the we" here (likewise)

Phil 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

So whatever "came into" the faith Paul fought, not giving into them that the truth of the gospel remained with them, thus not giving them subjection for a moment. However with Tim (who he desired to "go out to" the Jews to gain the Jews) he circumcised as to not give offense. Even as he also states "to the Jews I became a Jew to win the Jews". Paul didnt really need to given he was a Jew (already circumcised himself). However, as a son with the Father (who imitated what he saw in Paul) Tim did as Paul would do (to that particular end). And this all for the sake of the gospel.

So his actions change depending on the audience. That which creeped in was fought (for the sake of the gospel) and that which was without (for example, the Jews) Paul hoped to gain needed an entrance to his words. When he decided on Tim, he had him circumcised for that purpose (for he says they all knew his father was a Greek). Paul wouldn't have gained an ear without that move.

So really Paul took great pains with everyone, whether the Jews, those under the law and those without the law and made his intent pretty clear on these things.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

1 Corinthians 9:19-22 "For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some."

 

[Hizikyah]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

Thank you for inviting me to the party! Yeah so this is a new ideal/topic to me, something I came across when reading Scripture. And since this is such a delicate topic I humbly ask that any who partake in this discussion, myself induced use caution in replying to each others words, I know at time I can misread or misunderstand another comments and go off on a wrong tangent.

So this is something I posted a week or so ago, I want to use this as a starting point:

Most people cast Messiah's words aside for their misunderstanding of Paul's writings, I am saying one must know what the Messiah said, and IMO Paul should be understood as being filtered through Messiah, not Messiah filtered through Paul, now I know the initial reaction would be to say, all Scripture is from the Most High, and I do not doubt that, however, there is a difference when a "OT" writer says,

Yeremyah 29:11-13, "For I know the thoughts; plans, that I have for you, says Yahweh: thoughts of peace and not of destruction, to give you the future you hope for. Then you will call upon Me, and you will come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. Then you will seek Me and find Me. Yes, when you will search for Me with all your heart"

As opposed to when people were reasoning with each other like in this "OT" example:

1 Samuyil 8:4-5, "Then all the elders of Israyl gathered together and approached Samuyl when he was at Ramah, Saying to him; You are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Appoint us a king to judge us; just like all the other nations."

Mpw I am not saying Paul was not inspired, that would be putting word in my mouth, but what people do not seem to understand is Paul's writings were letters to SPECIFIC groups of people with specific issues. Issues that may or may not apply to any certain persona living now, and can thus be very useful, BUT, since we do not fully know exactly what was going on with said specific people I find it silly to use those as a filter for the words of Messiah, or as some people use them as a "blender" for the words of Messiah, but rather Messiah words should be a filter FOR every writer of Scripture.

And I will illustrate why;

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

What did, "take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people" mean?

By lawless people was he actually warning against people who would preach obedience to said Law?

Or by lawlessness is he warning against people who would preach against said Law THROUGH THEIR MISUNDERSTANDING? That we are warned of; "hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people"

 

[Hizikyah]

Now tell me did Pater and Paul make ANY mistakes in their ministries?

I will give a short list of humans who made errors

Made errors: Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jonah, Matthew, John, Peter, Paul and every other human who has ever lived...except;

and a short list of humans who did not make errors;

Did not make a single error:Yahshua (Jesus)

This is why it is written:

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

Now why wold this be written IF all prophets were equal? Why would there be ONE we must hear and obey? Abd that is by the mouth of YHWH and the mouth of Yahshua (Jeusu) Himself....


Are we supposed to reead, understand and believe all that Yahweh inspired to be written?

Luke 24:25, "Then He said to them: O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!"

However the same Messiah that said that also Himself said:

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Also VERY IMPORTANTLY, if you want to claim a doctrine out of the mouth of ONE man and it is not in the mouth of 2 or 3 not that the Scrip is wrong, but the interpretation may be wrong.

Now if you want to tell me, "Jesus dint have the full message, Paul did, you are in DIRECT violation of so many Scripture it is crazy,

John (Yahchanan) 8:31, "...If you continue in My doctrine, then you are truly My disciples."

Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

Mattithyah 28:20, “Teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you. And lo, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Mattithyah 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.

So if you say the feull revelation was not given until Messiah left earth,you are in error.

Yahchanan (John) 4:25-26, "The woman said to Him; I know that the Messiah comes, and when He comes, He will tell us all things. Yahshua said to her: I am He speaking to you."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Who is singled out as hard to understand? And it just so happens that people isolate this writer that is hard to understand and build doctrines without considering other Scripture. So the error is not in Paul but in people's understanding.

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

This was written for a reason to ignore it is folly.

 

[Hizikyah]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

Who had obeyed the Law without fault?

Moses? Peter? Paul? or Yahshua (Jesus)?

Paul says:

Philippians 3:5, "Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;"

Philippians 3:6,
New International Version
as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

New Living Translation
I was so zealous that I harshly persecuted the church. And as for righteousness, I obeyed the law without fault.

English Standard Version
as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

New American Standard Bible
as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

King James Bible
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Who has looked at the Law of the Most High and found themselves "blameless"

Apologize all you want, it is written.


2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

This was written for a reason to ignore it is folly.

 

[Hizikyah]

Paul says:

Philippians 3:6,
King James Bible
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Romans 7:14-15, "For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin. For what I would have done, that I did not do; but what I hated, that is what I did."

So to the Romans he said he was sinning, but to the Philippians he says:

Philippians 3:6,, "Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

He was not the Messiah, he was not perfect.

Why is he telling the Romans he sins, while telling the Philippians he is blameless in the Law, telling the Galatians that circumcision make one a debtor to the Law, while (most here would say telling people they "are not under Law" and getting Timothy circumcised...

“Paul wanted Timothy to accompany him, and he took him andcircumcised him.” (Acts16:3)

"Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole Law” (Gal5:2).

And if you say he did it to please the Jews... YOU ARE ILLUSTRATING HIS ERROR...

Acts 5:29, " Then Kepha and the other apostles answered, and said; We must obey Yahweh rather than men."

Matt 4:4, "But He answered, and said; It is written: Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of Yahweh"

 

[oldthennew]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

Hizikyah,

we are taking your central idea that 'Christ IS the Foundation' of Paul and ALL of the NT writers,
and NOT the other-way-around.

the scriptures support one another, they do not break' each other.

indeed, we have puzzled for hours over some of Paul's letters -
one thing is certain, 'correct doctrine' is useless if it is not accompanied with 'correct behaviour'.

 

[Hizikyah]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

In 2 Corinthians 12:16 Paul says:

2 Corinthians 12:16,

New International Version
Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!

New Living Translation
Some of you admit I was not a burden to you. But others still think I was sneaky and took advantage of you by trickery.

English Standard Version
But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by deceit.

New American Standard Bible
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

King James Bible
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Now granted, I have not burdened you; yet sly as I am, I took you in by deceit!

International Standard Version
Granting that I have not been a burden to you, was I a clever schemer who trapped you by some trick?

NET Bible
But be that as it may, I have not burdened you. Yet because I was a crafty person, I took you in by deceit!

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And perhaps I was not a burden to you, but as a crafty man I robbed you by treachery.

Jubilee Bible 2000
But be it so, I did not burden you; nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

King James 2000 Bible
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I took you with guile.

American King James Version
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

American Standard Version
But be it so, I did not myself burden you; but, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But be it so: I did not burthen you: but being crafty, I caught you by guile.

Darby Bible Translation
But be it so. *I* did not burden you, but being crafty I took you by guile.

English Revised Version
But be it so, I did not myself burden you; but, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Webster's Bible Translation
But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

World English Bible
But be it so, I did not myself burden you. But, being crafty, I caught you with deception.

Young's Literal Translation
And be it so, I -- I did not burden you, but being crafty, with guile I did take you;

2 Corinthians 12:16

Text Analysis
[TABLE="class: maintext"]
[TR]
[TD="class: top, width: 17%"]Strong's[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 20%"]Transliteration[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]Greek[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]English[/TD]
[TD="class: top, width: 21%"]Morphology[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1510 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]Estō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]Ἔστω[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]be it so[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PMA-3S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1161 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]de[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δέ,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]however,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1473 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]egō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἐγὼ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]I[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-N1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3756 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]ou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]οὐ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]not[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adv[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2599 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]katebarēsa[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]κατεβάρησα[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]did burden[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-1S[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4771 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hymas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὑμᾶς·[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you;[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-A2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]235 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]alla[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἀλλὰ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]but[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Conj[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]5225 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hyparchōn[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὑπάρχων[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]being[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-PPA-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3835 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]panourgos[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]πανοῦργος[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]crafty,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]Adj-NMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]1388 [e]
[/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]dolō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]δόλῳ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]by trickery[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DMS
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]4771 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]hymas[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ὑμᾶς[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]you[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]PPro-A2P[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]2983 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]elabon[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]ἔλαβον.[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]I caught.[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]V-AIA-1S
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


1388 - dolosStrong's Concordance

dolos: a bait, fig. craft, deceit
​

Original Word: δόλος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: dolos
Phonetic Spelling: (dol'-os)
Short Definition: deceit, guile, treachery
Definition: deceit, guile, treachery.

John 10:27, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

John 7:16-17 "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching--whether it comes from Yahweh, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."

 

[Hizikyah]

1 Corinthians 4:15-16, "For though you have countlessb guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father (3962. patér) in Christ Jesus through the gospel. I urge you, then, be imitators of me."

Matthew 23:9, "And call no man your father (3962. patér) on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."

John 7:16-17 "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching--whether it comes from Yahweh, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."

Yahchanan (John) 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."

 

[Hizikyah]

1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Matt 7:13-14, "Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Mattithyah 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Teacher! Teacher! will enter into the Kingdom of Yahweh, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Teacher! Teacher! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."

iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Mattithyah 5:19, "Whosoever, therefore, will break one of the least of these Laws, and will teach men so, he will be called the least in the Kingdom of Yahweh; but whosoever will do and teach them, the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Yahweh."


1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Mattithyah 19:17, "But He said to him: Why do you question Me about righteousness? There is only One Who is the standard of perfection, and that is Yahweh; so if you would enter into life, keep the Laws of Yahweh.


1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.


1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Matt 5:17-18, "Do not even think that I have come to destroy the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to destroy them, but to fulfill them. For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

"Unless heaven and earth passes away..the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law"

Has heaven and earth passed away? I will give you a minute to look out your window.......

No? Still there? So according to HIM, not me, Him, nothing will pass from the Law. (the real Sacifice is complete, and the Pristhood has taken on it true form, as Yahshua is the High Priest now.)

When will heaven and earth pass? Does Scripture give us a hint? Thank Yah, it does;

Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, Yahweh Shammah, coming down from Yahweh out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father.


1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

New International Version Mt 23:2-3
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

King James Bible Mt 23:2-3
"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah
Mattithyah 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to thier takanot (reforms) and thier ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."

Takanot: reforms or enactments that (falsely) "change or add" to Yahweh's Law.

Ma'asim: acts or deeds that serve as precedents for rabbinic law.

Both Takanot and Ma'asim are laws of the Talmud.

1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness


"the condition of without law" - 1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me"

1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."


Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

And I will illustrate why;

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

What did, "take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people" mean?

By lawless people was he actually warning against people who would preach obedience to said Law?

Or by lawlessness is he warning against people who would preach against said Law THROUGH THEIR MISUNDERSTANDING? That we are warned of; "hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people"

2 Peter 3:14-16[SUP]14 [/SUP]Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I haven't been here very long at this forum, but what I have seen from some of your posts Hizikyah that it is you who do not understand, or truly hear what the Holy Spirit is saying in the Law. This is the same mistake the Sadduces and Pharisees made concerning the spiritual law of God. You judge it by outward appearances, and not by the mind of the Spirit.

Just like eating pork will not defile a man, because physical meats cannot enter into the heart of man. If you cannot understand that, then you are still in the flesh, and unable to understand Paul as Peter also said.

 

[Hizikyah]

2 Peter 3:14-16[SUP]14 [/SUP]Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[SUP]16 [/SUP]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I haven't been here very long at this forum, but what I have seen from some of your posts Hizikyah that it is you who do not understand, or truly hear what the Holy Spirit is saying in the Law. This is the same mistake the Sadduces and Pharisees made concerning the spiritual law of God. You judge it by outward appearances, and not by the mind of the Spirit.

Just like eating pork will not defile a man, because physical meats cannot enter into the heart of man. If you cannot understand that, then you are still in the flesh, and unable to understand Paul as Peter also said.

You take a passage that is about a hand washing ritual and twist it.

Nice try tho A-team.

"unwashed--hands."

?

Originally Posted by Hizikyah

Mark 7:18 "Are you so dull?" he asked.

That He did ask, you know why... THE PEOPLE WERE "CAUGHT UP", "RAPTURED" IN TRADITION...

7 But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men!

9 Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!

Because Messiah say: "nothing from outside a man, that entering into him can defile him" many that want to reject Yahweh;s food Laws say see I can eat! But when did context of Scripture not matter? In context the entire passage is about eating with "unwashed--hands."

Did Peter wait on the Spirit to understand the meaning? Do we look at context?Can we completely remove it from its context and expect to get the true meaning? Also if you consider verse 17, "His disciples asked Him about the parable," yet "all things are clean food" is taught as doctrine, not as parable........Again in context verse 17, parable. SO Messiah proceeds to explain further:

18 He said to them;Are you also without understanding? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,

19 Because it does not enter into his heart; mind, but his stomach, and then into the toilet as all food is eliminated?

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

Now this is where the deception comes in, as you see I have shown verse 19 translated 2 different ways. Which one is correct? The second translation is the much more common translation, here is a short list of translations that match the second translation (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean): New International Version, New Living Translation, English Standard Version, New American Standard Bible, Holman Christian Standard Bible, NET Bible, GOD'S WORD Translation, English Revised Version, Weymouth New Testament.

We will look at the original language, but first I want to mention again, CONTEXT, can we somehow go from the whole topic being about a hand washing ritual and unclean animals not even being in the discussion to unclean animals are now food?

The first thing you will notice is the words, "In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean," are completely absent. Before moving on, I want to ask, why did someone feel the need to forge words into the text that are not there. Is it ok to just add words wherever I want? Of course not.

19 Because it does not enter into his heart but his stomach, and then into the toilet (856) as all food is cleansed out (2511)?

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

856 - aphedrón
aphedrón: a place of sitting apart, i.e. a privy, drain
Original Word: ἀφεδρών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aphedrón
Phonetic Spelling: (af-ed-rone')
Short Definition: a drain, latrine
Definition: a drain, latrine
Word Origin - from apo and hedraios
Definition - a place of sitting apart, i.e. a privy, drain

2511 - katharizó
katharizó: to cleanse
Original Word: καθαρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katharizó
Phonetic Spelling: (kath-ar-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I make clean
Definition: I cleanse, make clean, literally, ceremonially, or spiritually, according to context.
Word Origin - from katharos
Definition - to cleanse

20 Then He said: That which comes out of the man, that defiles the man;

21 For from within--out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

22 Thefts, lust, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, and foolishness--

23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

No this is not about pork, it is about the pharisee making a show they are holy with their appearances, but Messiah is saying evil is that which should be guarded against.

This exact same account is also detailed in Mattithyah 15, and this is also shown there:

Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"

Mattithyah 15:17, "Do you not yet understand that whatever enters in at the mouth goes into the stomach, and then is cast out in elimination?"

But is we keep readin we see the meaning of the PARABLE:

Mark 7:17, " But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable."

Mattithyah 15:15, "But Kepha spoke, and said to Him; Explain this parable to us."

Kepha is Peter, so if all foods were cleansed why did Kepha years later still not eat unclean food?

Acts 10:14, "But Kepha said; By no means, Ruler, for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean."

Because Mark 7 & and Matt 15 were not about food but a pharisee hand washing ritual as the parable is explained here same event, but the full explanation was not given, as Matt was His disciple and there with Him when it happened:

Mattithyah 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man--but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

As Acts 10 was not about food either:

Acts 10:28, "And he said to them; You yourselves are aware how it is not Lawful for a Yahdai to associate with one of another nation, or to enter his house; but Yahweh has shown me that I must not call any man common or unclean."

So in Mattithyah the parable is fully explained, yet in Mark it is not, is it possibe that is why those false words were added to Mark 7:19? If they were added to Mattithyah 15, it would have been a contradiction, but Mark having not being fully explained, it left the door open.

Originally Posted by Hizikyah

Mk 17 But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable.

Mt 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man--but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

No physical food enters into the heart of man, why can't you understand that???!!!!

18 He said to them;Are you also without understanding? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,

19 Because it does not enter into his heart; mind, but his stomach, and then into the toilet as all food is eliminated?

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.”

To be carnally minded is death!

 

[Hizikyah]

parable

"His disciples asked Him about the parable."

So in Mattithyah the parable is fully explained, yet in Mark it is not, is it possibe that is why those false words were added to Mark 7:19? If they were added to Mattithyah 15, it would have been a contradiction, but Mark having not being fully explained, it left the door open.

Originally Posted by Hizikyah

Mk 17 But when He had left the people and entered the house, His disciples asked Him about the parable.

Mt 15:20, "These are the things which defile a man--but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

parable

...

Him and His disciples call it a parable....

Paul - 1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Messiah - Matt 7:13-14, "Enter in through the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who go that way. Because straight is the gate, and narrow is the way which leads to life, and few there are who find it."

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

This was written for a reason to ignore it is folly.

Are ALL things Lawful?

Paul - 1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."

If all things are Lawful why is that not OK?

John 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

Then why don't you HEAR JESUS' WORDS????!!!!!


No physical food enters into the heart of man, why can't you understand that???!!!!

18 He said to them;Are you also without understanding? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,

19 Because it does not enter into his heart; mind, but his stomach, and then into the toilet as all food is eliminated?

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.”

To be carnally minded is death!

 

[Hizikyah]

No physical food enters into the heart of man, why can't you understand that???!!!!

18 He said to them;Are you also without understanding? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him,

19 Because it does not enter into his heart; mind, but his stomach, and then into the toilet as all food is eliminated?

19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.”

To be carnally minded is death!

I think many are letting their hearts desires lead them. People pray on it and then imagine an answer, did a messenger bring you an answer?...

Isayah 59:21, "As for Me, this is My covenant with them, says Yahweh: My Spirit which is upon you, namely My Word (Instructions) which I have put in your mouth; they will not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your seed, nor from the mouth of your seed's seed, says Yahweh: from this time and forevermore."

John 6:63, "It is the Spirit that gives life; the flesh is useless. The Words (Instructions) that I speak to you, they are Spirit, and they are life everlasting."

John 6:63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

Mark 7:
7 But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men!

9 Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!"

Matt 23:23, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithes on mint, anise, and cumin, but have neglected the more important matters of the Law--judgment, mercy, and faith. Tithing you ought to have done, without leaving the other undone."

New International Version Mt 23:2-3
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."

King James Bible Mt 23:2-3
"Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."

Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah
Mattithyah 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to thier takanot (reforms) and thier ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."

Takanot: reforms or enactments that (falsely) "change or add" to Yahweh's Law.

Ma'asim: acts or deeds that serve as precedents for rabbinic law.

Both Takanot and Ma'asim are laws of the Talmud.

You know what the heart really loves?

1 Corinthians 10:23, "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."

"Laws" is word #1785 entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Revelation 12:17

New International Version
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring--those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

New Living Translation
And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children--all who keep God's commandments and maintain their testimony for Jesus. [18] Then the dragon took his stand on the shore beside the sea.

English Standard Version
Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

New American Standard Bible
So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

King James Bible
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I dont think you guys that are"free from the Law" have this to worry about...

Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

How do we love according to Scripture?

Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."

Romans 13:9, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself."

"all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself"

Summed up by this:

Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am Yahweh."

1 Yahchanan 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yahweh: When we love Yahweh by keeping His Laws. For this is the love of Yahweh: That we keep His Law, and His Law is not grievous."

1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.

Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."

"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459

Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Re: HIZIKYAH'S TOPIC: DID PAUL SIN [DESPITE BEING T DESIGNATED HUMAN EXAMPLE IN THE

I have the testimony of Jesus Christ. I come in the name of the Lord! Why do you not hear my words?

Mark 7:15-23[SUP]15 [/SUP]There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Those have been given ears to hear let them hear what the Spirit is saying!