Homosexuality isn't sin

[Thaddaeus]

Eating pork and not offering any to your brother or sister in Christ is quite shellfish.

is this out of the NIV????

 

[Browncoat]

is this out of the NIV????

No, it's a joke

 

[Thaddaeus]

I sure hope it isn't. When I prayed and asked the lord about this, I didn't get a response. But Jesus did not say anything about homosexuals in the new testament, so I don't know what to believe. Please someone guide me.

Ro 1:26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:Ro 1:27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.Ro 1:28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

 

[Thaddaeus]

No, it's a joke

duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

 

[Browncoat]

duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

Oh, wait, was your NIV question a joke too?

If so, I feel dumb XD

 

[Ashton]

I won't debate on whether homosexuality is a sin or not as the Bible says that ALL have sinned and that the law was for ALL to keep silent before God.

Hey, Israel. I'm just curious what you mean by "the law was for ALL to keep silent before God." What is this silence? And more broadly, what is it you're trying to say?

I'll only add this. If a person is born a hermaphrodite, will it be a sin for this person to be with either a man or a woman?

I'm curious if you're implying that the Torah was inadequate for the time in which it was given since there were even hermaphrodites back then. No sweat. I'm just wondering. Also, I'd like to point out that when the community of Israel had a difficult case God's Torah commanded that they take it to the priests of God along with the judge (Deuteronomy 17:8-9).

I can't get this same direct advice from God through the priests, given our current state of affairs. When the Levitical system was set up and we had human beings functioning as priests we went to them for difficult advice. God communicated to them. He may communicate to me, but he does not communicate to me on any level I would be willing to base someone's life upon.

All I have to rely on is Christ's teaching that the Torah depended upon two commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5, Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 22:36-40). And you know how I would love myself as well as God? I would choose to wait till I matured a little more and then pick which gender I wanted to live with (if at all possible) for the rest of my life. But foremost I would love myself enough to let me be the one to choose what I wanted to do. I would build no other fence around God's Torah than that of love. Since there is no divinely-sanctioned legal system in place at the moment this would only mean that ruling on such a gray area, while decided by God, would not be known to the people. So if the hermaphrodite happened to not be sinning by having sexual intercourse in marriage with a man or woman then great. But if they did then it would be covered by Christ's blood. The sins of Christians do not pollute our souls; they pollute our surroundings. If God thought it was sin it would be up to him to discipline the hermaphrodite for their own good as well as the good of all his people and for everyone's proper instruction. God is truly a wise God and a God of love, isn't he?

Christ did indeed fulfilled the letter, but the spirit of the law still stands in the 10 commandments. We still know it is wrong to murder or to steal, but the Sabbath is also a moral commandment. The Bible says that the Sabbaths are a perpetual conenant with His people. It is the understanding of THIS commandment that opens the door to the full understanding of keeping the law.

Now, you already know my position on sodomy. I believe it to be wrong. But I'm curious what your position on it is? Do you believe it should be permitted? Does it conflict with your moral law? You list the Ten Commandments but have left out the commandment on sodomy. That's why I'm curious.

 

[Ashton]

The Bible says that the Sabbaths are a perpetual conenant with His people. It is the understanding of THIS commandment that opens the door to the full understanding of keeping the law.

Deuteronomy 11:1 implies that it's all pretty much on-going as long as there is sin on this earth. "Always" does not seem to imply "till Christ somehow did away with them even though he upheld them." Christ gave us a time table for when the Torah would be done away with. And that was when heaven and earth passed away.

 

[pickles]

Ashton, although I see the point you were trying to make in this post, I feel your ruse was very deseptive and unkind.
Understand that yes you are already forgiven, but also understand that I spent alot of time last night after I logged off praying and serching for a way to help you on this. You already said you wanted people to look to the new testament as well, I also pointed out that any sin that sepparated kept part of you from Jesus was detramental. I say this only to support why a simple pm would have been nice about your ruse.
Because I see you as a brother in Jesus I cried about this. I know that how I react is my own choice, but please understand that when one is part of the body, the whloe body hurts with you.
Please always remember that when one loves in Jesus they love with all their mind, soul and streangth.
I am glad that your views are as they are, always seeking Jesus.
But now I understand why the scripture I recieved was about dropping all with you. (goofy smile here)
Smiles and God bless, pickles

 

[Israel]

Hey, Israel. I'm just curious what you mean by "the law was for ALL to keep silent before God." What is this silence? And more broadly, what is it you're trying to say?



I'm curious if you're implying that the Torah was inadequate for the time in which it was given since there were even hermaphrodites back then. No sweat. I'm just wondering. Also, I'd like to point out that when the community of Israel had a difficult case God's Torah commanded that they take it to the priests of God along with the judge (Deuteronomy 17:8-9).

I can't get this same direct advice from God through the priests, given our current state of affairs. When the Levitical system was set up and we had human beings functioning as priests we went to them for difficult advice. God communicated to them. He may communicate to me, but he does not communicate to me on any level I would be willing to base someone's life upon.

All I have to rely on is Christ's teaching that the Torah depended upon two commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5, Leviticus 19:18, Matthew 22:36-40). And you know how I would love myself as well as God? I would choose to wait till I matured a little more and then pick which gender I wanted to live with (if at all possible) for the rest of my life. But foremost I would love myself enough to let me be the one to choose what I wanted to do. I would build no other fence around God's Torah than that of love. Since there is no divinely-sanctioned legal system in place at the moment this would only mean that ruling on such a gray area, while decided by God, would not be known to the people. So if the hermaphrodite happened to not be sinning by having sexual intercourse in marriage with a man or woman then great. But if they did then it would be covered by Christ's blood. The sins of Christians do not pollute our souls; they pollute our surroundings. If God thought it was sin it would be up to him to discipline the hermaphrodite for their own good as well as the good of all his people and for everyone's proper instruction. God is truly a wise God and a God of love, isn't he?



Now, you already know my position on sodomy. I believe it to be wrong. But I'm curious what your position on it is? Do you believe it should be permitted? Does it conflict with your moral law? You list the Ten Commandments but have left out the commandment on sodomy. That's why I'm curious.

How do you use the multiquote feature as you've used it? I haven't figured it out yet. My point in using a hermaphradite is to show that there are things we do not understand and are best let alone in a sense. Everyone works out there own salvation with fear and trembling. It is not my place to throw stones at a homosexual as I am also a sinner. Jesus is the judge. As for the "law was for all to keep silent before God:"

Romans 3:12-19

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17And the way of peace have they not known:
18There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

I'm not saying that the Torah was inadequate, I'm saying that these are physical examples given to us to understand that we need to trust God to handle these issues. I've read on the internet that when a hermaphradite is born, the parents choose what sex is the child to be. The doctor then surgically alters that child. But what if the parents chooses for that child to be a male and he grows with more of a tendancy to be a female? Is he then sinning? All things, good or bad, are given of God for those who love him.

 

[Ashton]

Ashton, although I see the point you were trying to make in this post, I feel your ruse was very deseptive and unkind.
Understand that yes you are already forgiven, but also understand that I spent alot of time last night after I logged off praying and serching for a way to help you on this. You already said you wanted people to look to the new testament as well, I also pointed out that any sin that sepparated kept part of you from Jesus was detramental. I say this only to support why a simple pm would have been nice about your ruse.
Because I see you as a brother in Jesus I cried about this. I know that how I react is my own choice, but please understand that when one is part of the body, the whloe body hurts with you.
Please always remember that when one loves in Jesus they love with all their mind, soul and streangth.
I am glad that your views are as they are, always seeking Jesus.
But now I understand why the scripture I recieved was about dropping all with you. (goofy smile here)
Smiles and God bless, pickles

Hey, pickles. I am sorry. I wanted to prove a point and didn't know any other way to prove it. If it helps at all my conscience hurt last night because I was left wondering if anyone had gone away from this thread questioning their beliefs. The Lord hasn't given me an abundant amount of emotion, but I did some praying about it, too, simply because I was genuinely troubled for everyone.

I had always planned on stating my true beliefs before I went to sleep so that people wouldn't be given too much time to doubt their faith simply because of the way people have taught them. When MyBagsRPacked got angry I immediately PMd her and told her what I was doing. I also PMd Dread_Zeppelin about it later. So it was only my intention to debate with certain people using their own line of reasoning. Whenever I saw someone in distress I dropped my cover and let them know. It wasn't a perfect situation, but weighing the costs to the potential benefit it seemed worth it. Although I really don't know if anyone is convinced by the Scriptures I have listed and the arguments I have made - either from their side and from mine.

So, again, I'm sorry. I've already been chewed out about it being deceptive and baiting people. But, honestly, I believe people who believe that the old laws are no longer applicable are easy prey for the devil who we know baits well-meaning Christians. I guess you could say I was simply playing the devil's advocate.

Thank you for your prayers, pickles. I know I can always use them.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Hey, pickles. I am sorry. I wanted to prove a point and didn't know any other way to prove it. If it helps at all my conscience hurt last night because I was left wondering if anyone had gone away from this thread questioning their beliefs. The Lord hasn't given me an abundant amount of emotion, but I did some praying about it, too, simply because I was genuinely troubled for everyone.

I had always planned on stating my true beliefs before I went to sleep so that people wouldn't be given too much time to doubt their faith simply because of the way people have taught them. When MyBagsRPacked got angry I immediately PMd her and told her what I was doing. I also PMd Dread_Zeppelin about it later. So it was only my intention to debate with certain people using their own line of reasoning. Whenever I saw someone in distress I dropped my cover and let them know. It wasn't a perfect situation, but weighing the costs to the potential benefit it seemed worth it. Although I really don't know if anyone is convinced by the Scriptures I have listed and the arguments I have made - either from their side and from mine.

So, again, I'm sorry. I've already been chewed out about it being deceptive and baiting people. But, honestly, I believe people who believe that the old laws are no longer applicable are easy prey for the devil who we know baits well-meaning Christians. I guess you could say I was simply playing the devil's advocate.

Thank you for your prayers, pickles. I know I can always use them.

if you play with Fire odds are you are going to get burned, deception is not a fruit of the Spirit

 

[DinoDillinger]

The purpose of the Law to light? Could you explain, please?

He explains I believe, read on.

 

[DinoDillinger]

No, actually, that's not correct.



For the purpose of spreading it throughout the rest of the world to all peoples.



Except for where Yeshua did tell you that in Matthew 5:17-20

1. Umm, explain?

2. As explained in Acts, the Law had been preached for many generations, the Gospel is actually what has been getting declared since Jesus came incase you didn't notice.

3. Maybe some understanding about the Law being kept by those who were circumsized in the flesh, and that the circumsizision of the heart isn't exactly one in the same, but about doing the will of God.

I wonder if some people do this to keep themselves so busy so that they don't have to listen to what God is saying to them, as I said, if you feel convicted to keep it then by all means do.

If you look at Abraham being justified for believing God, it wasn't really God gives him a set of rules so much as God saying Abraham go here, and Abraham followed.

 

[Ashton]

How do you use the multiquote feature as you've used it?

Hey, Israel. Didn't know there was a multiquote feature. Lol. Thanks.

My point in using a hermaphradite is to show that there are things we do not understand and are best let alone in a sense.

I thought I already addressed this based on Scripture. Therefore your point that there are things we do not understand does nothing to the applicability of the Torah. I think we can both agree that there can be a law while at the same time those who break it. I showed from the Scripture that, just as Israel was in exile to Babylon, we cannot obey the full Torah as it was intended for us. Does that mean it does not apply to us? Nope. It means that we're simply incapable of obeying it. If this is sin then we are saved by God's grace. I'm not arguing for vigilantism based on the Torah. I'm arguing for a love-based Torah, applied to our lives with the knowledge that we cannot obey it all as we should but that we can still obey part of it. What is best? Obeying part of the law or obeying none of it? For example:

1. We cannot condemn people to death for not observing the Torah because we do not have a priestly judicial system set up based upon it in which we can consult God if there are gray areas. Hence, this is your 'leave-it-alone' policy, albeit based on completely different reasoning.
2. We cannot make some of the sacrifices or offerings to God (there were more than just sin sacrifices) because there is no Levitical Priest system to sacrifice our animals.
3. We cannot properly observe some of the festivals because they required us to be in Jerusalem (there are instances in the New Testament where Paul goes to Jerusalem in order to partake of these festivals). I still observed the Festival of Shelters and it was amazing. I loved sleeping outside in the wild and hearing all of the things going on. But it was still nice to get back in-doors in the end.

1. We can observe the law of circumcision (circumcised here and honored for the gift!).
2. We can observe the commandment to make tassels on our garments (I already made mine according to the specifications, and I'm honored to wear them).
3. We can observe the commandment to not sew our field with two kinds of seed.
4. We can obsere the commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves (a lot of us Christians can anyway ).
5. We can observe the commandment to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.
6. We can observe the ritual of immersion (i.e. baptism). I've done it before in icy streams even. It's been a great adventure living my life according to God's laws. Believe me, I can tell you stories... Those poor fishermen...
7. I don't know if we can fully observe the Passover. If families were to kill their own lambs, then I might as well check up into buying a baby lamb and raising it. I know Christ commanded us to observe it for his sake or at least to partake of the unleavened bread and wine (Luke 22:19).

Just think what observing the Passover in its fullest sense would mean for us today? Who wants to raise up a perfect, little, baby lamb that frolics around and then have to kill it and eat its flesh? After we did this I'm sure we could understand the magnitude of God's sorrow when the Lamb of God died... All of the Torah is to bring us closer to God. It's to help us understand him and our relationship with him. This is how much God loved us. Honestly, I would hate to do it, but I realize its purpose and its necessity.

Anyway, sort of got off on a rambling streak there.

It is not my place to throw stones at a homosexual as I am also a sinner.

And according to the Torah it's not my place either. Why do people downplay the Torah as being about throwing stones at children and God clubbing people over the head? The Torah could be summed up with the two most important commandments found in it: Deuteronomy 6:5 & Leviticus 19:18 (neither of which was in the Ten Commandments). I don't know if you are downplaying it in such a way, my friend. I'm simply saying that I often see that among modern Christians. They have this supposition that the God of the Old Testament gave Israel all of these useless, trivial commands that subjected them to slavery and condemning one-another to death. You won't hear them claim this, because it doesn't make any sense.

Jesus is the judge. As for the "law was for all to keep silent before God:

So you mean that Jesus is the judge and that the law is to keep silent and not speak up? Are you trying to tell me something?

 

[pickles]

Hey, pickles. I am sorry. I wanted to prove a point and didn't know any other way to prove it. If it helps at all my conscience hurt last night because I was left wondering if anyone had gone away from this thread questioning their beliefs. The Lord hasn't given me an abundant amount of emotion, but I did some praying about it, too, simply because I was genuinely troubled for everyone.

I had always planned on stating my true beliefs before I went to sleep so that people wouldn't be given too much time to doubt their faith simply because of the way people have taught them. When MyBagsRPacked got angry I immediately PMd her and told her what I was doing. I also PMd Dread_Zeppelin about it later. So it was only my intention to debate with certain people using their own line of reasoning. Whenever I saw someone in distress I dropped my cover and let them know. It wasn't a perfect situation, but weighing the costs to the potential benefit it seemed worth it. Although I really don't know if anyone is convinced by the Scriptures I have listed and the arguments I have made - either from their side and from mine.

So, again, I'm sorry. I've already been chewed out about it being deceptive and baiting people. But, honestly, I believe people who believe that the old laws are no longer applicable are easy prey for the devil who we know baits well-meaning Christians. I guess you could say I was simply playing the devil's advocate.

Thank you for your prayers, pickles. I know I can always use them.

Thankyou Ashton, no I did not question my beliefs, but did worry about yours.
I can live with differences, and opinions.
Its the salvation part that keeps me praying.
Just dont do this agian, or I ll pray on you.
My heart is glad now in all of it.
God bless, pickles

 

[DinoDillinger]

Aston, are you honestly saying that you have loved God with all your heart, mind and soul? For a month? a week? a day? an hour? Really???????

 

[lesnes]

well aston, you mentioned the SDA is a cult, and referenced the sabbath......God never changed the Comandments....i believe the Sabbath never changed either. Grouping people or churches/religions into a collective group when talking about ideas, beliefs and values is discriminatory...there are wonderful Christian from any denomination....and, it (descusion) is one of the only way that people can learn, grow, and advance in the direction that God wants us too. How are we to make any head space in our Quest to God, if we totally dismiss what a group of people feels is right or wrong based striclkly on the fact that some of them dont agree with our beliefs....how do we moved forward like that. Is not pointing out peoples/groups/nations/religions/churches.....faults is that not a step in the backward direction???

 

[Ashton]

well aston, you mentioned the SDA is a cult, and referenced the sabbath......God never changed the Comandments....i believe the Sabbath never changed either. Grouping people or churches/religions into a collective group when talking about ideas, beliefs and values is discriminatory...there are wonderful Christian from any denomination....and, it (descusion) is one of the only way that people can learn, grow, and advance in the direction that God wants us too. How are we to make any head space in our Quest to God, if we totally dismiss what a group of people feels is right or wrong based striclkly on the fact that some of them dont agree with our beliefs....how do we moved forward like that. Is not pointing out peoples/groups/nations/religions/churches.....faults is that not a step in the backward direction???

I have a number of questions for you, lesnes.

1. Is SDA "Seventh Day Adventist?"
2. If it is where did I mention that it is a cult? I actually attend a Seventh Day Adventist church, and I love the people there. I actually commended someone on this site for being a Seventh Day Adventist because they believed in observing the Sabbath.
3. I hope I'm not grouping people into certain beliefs. It was only my intention to address people already with a certain belief. The belief itself groups them into a certain category. More importantly, it was my intention to address the belief itself.
4. Discussion is a great way we learn, grown and advance in a direction God wants us to... unless people's hearts are hard and they refuse to go in the direction God wants them to in spite of the fact evidence has been given against their beliefs.
5. Believe you me, I don't dismiss what someone believes as right or wrong arbitrarily. I look into the Scriptures and the culture of the time for my reasoning. If you're saying I have not addressed some of the Scriptural passages people have used thus far and are concluding because of this that I am closed-minded, then please reconsider. I haven't addressed them yet because I've already done it in the past so many times. For me they offer no further evidence to support the notion that the Torah is no longer applicable for us today. But if you want me to address them, then I certainly will.
6. It's not so much my aim to point out a person's fault as it is to point out a belief's fault. Now, I may have said, "People who believe this are wrong." But what I should have said is, "This belief is wrong." So I agree with you there if I've ever offended anyone. And I will try not to do it again, sir.

 

[Happycamper]

best quote ever, God approves this quote "God made Adam and Eve,not Adam and Steve!"

Homosexuals will ever experience the many joys of life: a wife, a child, grandchild, death of mother-in-law. they just dont experience any of that

God bless

 

[Ashton]

Aston, are you honestly saying that you have loved God with all your heart, mind and soul? For a month? a week? a day? an hour? Really???????

Ability is different than practice, Dino. Deuteronomy 30:11