How and When does God know me?

[Deuteronomy]

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

What is this verse saying? God's saw my substance in the womb before I was fully formed (fashioned).

Adoption of sons is the redemption of the body (Romans 8:23). That's the promise to those already in Christ. Those who trust in Christ, have been placed in Christ and sealed for the future adoption. God's foreknowledge always precedes predestination and election.

God is omniscient is a man made term. Let's allow Scripture to define the attributes of God. I see throughout the Bible that God has chosen to limit His knowledge when dealing with man, specifically mans choices to obey His word or disobey His word. I don't want to explain these passages away with some man made theology. I just want Scripture to be honest and true and not read theology into it.

Ahh, Open Theism*. One of our seminary's greatest professors (Clark Pinnock) created quite a stir in the denomination (EFCA) over that. Though none were aware of it at the time, his radical change in course (from holding to the Christian church's historic/orthodox beliefs to fully embracing Open Theism) coincided with the onset of his Alzheimer's Disease (that first caused the overthrow his mind, and then eventually took his life). A very sad story indeed

....*(You are welcome to stand contra mundum with the extreme minority report if you wish to, but I would think it only prudent of you to consider
......at some length the fact that every church and denomination within the pale of Christian orthodoxy has 1. considered what Open Theism teaches
......and then 2. summarily rejected it as the heresy that it is, and that within the last 15 years!)

As for Psalm 139:16, the AV translators' decision to add the word "members" to the Biblical text is unfortunate, because it gives the verse a possible, but unlikely (and I believe unintended) meaning. Nevertheless (even if we consider what the AV has to say alone) the overall meaning of both v16, as well the Psalm in general, remains clear, we can trust the One who cares for and loves us so, the One to whom we've surrendered the very reins of our lives, because He is the One who declares the end from the beginning, knowing and ordaining whatsoever comes to pass before it happens.

Quite frankly, apart from His Divine ordination and foreknowledge, all of God's prophesies and promises would be reduced to mere wishes, possibilities, and/or conjecture, with nothing more than the "hope" that some of them might come true someday.

BTW, nearly every other translations/paraphrase (even the ones based on the AV, like the NKJV and the KJV 2000) translate v16 in a similar fashion to the NASB.

.........Psalm 139
.........16 ..Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance;
.........And in Thy book they were all written
.........The days that were ordained for me,
.........When as yet there was not one of them.

As for the terminology of the church, words like "omniscient" or "Trinity", you are correct, those words, and many others like them, cannot be found in the Bible. They do serve a purpose however (which I am certain you already know and understand) as they are the means by which we define/summarize, circumscribe, & safeguard what the Bible teaches us about God, the Godhead, and other subjects. So while the terminology itself is "man made", what it teaches us is Biblical truth.

I'd still be interested in knowing what you meant by the "RCC agenda" above, and how whatever that is relates to the Calvinists (or perhaps to Calvinism?).

Thanks!

~Deut

.........Isaiah 46
.........9 "I am God, and there is no other;
.........I am God, and there is no one like Me,
.........10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
.........And from ancient times things which have not been done,
.........Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
.........And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’".
.........

 

[Slayer]

Not in my Bible. Predestination has to do with the believer's sinless body, conformed to the image of Christ. That's not salvation. I am saved before I am predestined. I am saved upon hearing the gospel and believing, then I am predestinated unto the future adoption which is the redemption of the body.

My Bible says otherwise, I can list you 40 odd scriptures which prove that we were saved before God created the world. I know most Christians have a problem with Gods sovereignty over all things, because they use their fallen sinful reasoning to understand Gods infinite wisdom.

We should just trust and obey Him and take Him at His word, no matter how hard or unfair it may seem to our corrupt minds.

 

[Deuteronomy]

Where in Scripture does it say that God is working outside of time? Did not God create time? Is not God choosing to work with man in the time He created? That's what I see throughout Scripture.

The church has always taught that God is both immanent AND transcendent, because that's what we believe the Bible teaches us. IOW, while He chooses to exist within His Creation, within space-time (and that for our benefit), He also, necessarily, exists/existed both before and outside of space-time, because He's the One who created it!

~Deut

 

[pottersclay]

For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Let's start here

 

[John146]

BTW, nearly every other translations/paraphrase (even the ones based on the AV, like the NKJV and the KJV 2000) translate v16 in a similar fashion to the NASB.

.........Psalm 139
.........16 ..Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance;
.........And in Thy book they were all written
.........The days that were ordained for me,
.........When as yet there was not one of them.

As for the terminology of the church, words like "omniscient" or "Trinity", you are correct, those words, and many others like them, cannot be found in the Bible. They do serve a purpose however (which I am certain you already know and understand) as they are the means by which we define/summarize, circumscribe, & safeguard what the Bible teaches us about God, the Godhead, and other subjects. So while the terminology itself is "man made", what it teaches us is Biblical truth.

I'd still be interested in knowing what you meant by the "RCC agenda" above, and how whatever that is relates to the Calvinists (or perhaps to Calvinism?).

Thanks!

~Deut

.........Isaiah 46
.........9 "I am God, and there is no other;
.........I am God, and there is no one like Me,
.........10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
.........And from ancient times things which have not been done,
.........Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
.........And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’".
.........

 

[John146]

My Bible says otherwise, I can list you 40 odd scriptures which prove that we were saved before God created the world. I know most Christians have a problem with Gods sovereignty over all things, because they use their fallen sinful reasoning to understand Gods infinite wisdom.

We should just trust and obey Him and take Him at His word, no matter how hard or unfair it may seem to our corrupt minds.

Ahh, Open Theism*. One of our seminary's greatest professors (Clark Pinnock) created quite a stir in the denomination (EFCA) over that. Though none were aware of it at the time, his radical change in course (from holding to the Christian church's historic/orthodox beliefs to fully embracing Open Theism) coincided with the onset of his Alzheimer's Disease (that first caused the overthrow his mind, and then eventually took his life). A very sad story indeed

....*(You are welcome to stand contra mundum with the extreme minority report if you wish to, but I would think it only prudent of you to consider
......at some length the fact that every church and denomination within the pale of Christian orthodoxy has 1. considered what Open Theism teaches
......and then 2. summarily rejected it as the heresy that it is, and that within the last 15 years!)

As for Psalm 139:16, the AV translators' decision to add the word "members" to the Biblical text is unfortunate, because it gives the verse a possible, but unlikely (and I believe unintended) meaning. Nevertheless (even if we consider what the AV has to say alone) the overall meaning of both v16, as well the Psalm in general, remains clear, we can trust the One who cares for and loves us so, the One to whom we've surrendered the very reins of our lives, because He is the One who declares the end from the beginning, knowing and ordaining whatsoever comes to pass before it happens.

Quite frankly, apart from His Divine ordination and foreknowledge, all of God's prophesies and promises would be reduced to mere wishes, possibilities, and/or conjecture, with nothing more than the "hope" that some of them might come true someday.

BTW, nearly every other translations/paraphrase (even the ones based on the AV, like the NKJV and the KJV 2000) translate v16 in a similar fashion to the NASB.

.........Psalm 139
.........16 ..Thine eyes have seen my unformed substance;
.........And in Thy book they were all written
.........The days that were ordained for me,
.........When as yet there was not one of them.

As for the terminology of the church, words like "omniscient" or "Trinity", you are correct, those words, and many others like them, cannot be found in the Bible. They do serve a purpose however (which I am certain you already know and understand) as they are the means by which we define/summarize, circumscribe, & safeguard what the Bible teaches us about God, the Godhead, and other subjects. So while the terminology itself is "man made", what it teaches us is Biblical truth.

I'd still be interested in knowing what you meant by the "RCC agenda" above, and how whatever that is relates to the Calvinists (or perhaps to Calvinism?).

Thanks!

~Deut

.........Isaiah 46
.........9 "I am God, and there is no other;
.........I am God, and there is no one like Me,
.........10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
.........And from ancient times things which have not been done,
.........Saying, ‘My purpose will be established,
.........And I will accomplish all My good pleasure’".
.........

God has declared the end from the beginning. Read Revelation 21-22. Don't read into that your theology. Let Scripture define itself. God's purpose shall be established because He will make it so. That does not mean, however, that He has determined all things in between from the beginning to the end. He has declared how the end will turn out, with Him being Lord over all.

Calvin got his theology from Jerome, both were RCC priests, who upheld the beliefs of the RCC that only a certain elect will be saved, specifically those who are infant baptized. You know, the elects children will always be elect also.

 

[John146]

For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Marvelous are Your works, And that my soul knows very well. My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

Let's start here

Yep, all knowledge for God. What about all future choices? Got Scripture for that? Ever read Jeremiah 18? The Bible contains a lot of "if" and "then" statements from God. If you do this...then I'll do this...our choices will never catch God off guard. He always knows how He will respond. See Jonah and Nineveh.

 

[stonesoffire]

Where in Scripture does it say that God is working outside of time? Did not God create time? Is not God choosing to work with man in the time He created? That's what I see throughout Scripture.

Yes, God has stated that in the end, He will rule and reign over all. We have Revelation and the end of the story.

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Here you go John.

Thanks Dino!

 

[John146]

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Here you go John.

Thanks Dino!

I have addressed this verse a hundred times. God has declared the end. It's in Revelation 21-22. This does not mean that God knows every decision man will make when faced with His word. God's counsel shall stand. He will rule and reign over all.

 

[Deuteronomy]

God has declared the end from the beginning. Read Revelation 21-22. Don't read into that your theology. Let Scripture define itself.

Hi John, while I appreciate the admonishment, and I understand why you gave it, the word "ditto" comes quickly to mind

God's counsel shall stand. He will rule and reign over all.

So you believe that God is the Great, Cosmic Puppeteer then, and the Author of moral evil as a necessary consequence?

Quite frankly, that sounds akin to those who the Calvinists refer to as "Hyper-Calvinists" (because they are actually "Calvinists" in name only). I never considered it before, but I can see how Open Theism, when followed to its logical end, requires this belief about God. It seems to me that the only thing left to wonder about is whether or not the coffin of this debunked, heretical "theology" can withstand another nail.

Calvin got his theology from Jerome, both were RCC priests, who upheld the beliefs of the RCC that only a certain elect will be saved, specifically those who are infant baptized. You know, the elects children will always be elect also.

I never knew about the Jerome connection to Calvin or Calvinism. I know there is a connection with St. Augustine, because "Calvinism" is also called "Augustinianism". I'll have to look into that. Thanks!

~Deut

 

[Deuteronomy]

Calvin got his theology from Jerome, both were RCC priests, who upheld the beliefs of the RCC that only a certain elect will be saved, specifically those who are infant baptized. You know, the elects children will always be elect also.

Hi John, I've been unable to find much of any connection between Calvin and Jerome, so if you have a link you could point me to, I'd appreciate it

Also, I may be mistaken, but I didn't think the RCC ever held that there was a predetermined group known as the "elect" who alone would be saved, and/or that the elect = those who were baptized as infants. If that's true, and you know where to find it, I'd also appreciate getting a link from you about that too.

As for the elect's children also being elect, who teaches that, the Catholics or the Calvinists or both? I remember reading that Calvin believed/taught that all babies who die pre or post birth were part of God's elect and would be saved, but I don't remember anything about family members being necessarily elect because one of both of their parents were (quite frankly, it seems the proof is in the pudding about that anyway .. IOW, it's perfectly clear that all of the children of Christian parents do not become Christians themselves, so pressing that belief seems a bit of a stretch, to say the least).

~Deut

 

[blueluna5]

God knows everything about you. More than your parents, siblings, friends, spouse, children, etc. Those are just metaphors to show us the love of God. Though his knowledge and love for you are greater than any man.