How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

senzi · Oct 16, 2015

This is pauls core message)
Sin shall not be your master for you are not under law but under grace rom6:14

I have found those who most earnestly stress obedience to the law are those who are furthest away from obeying the law that christ said was the higher points of the law. The outside of the cup is cleaned, but.....

PeterJens · Oct 16, 2015

For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Rom 1:17

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
Rom 3:21-22

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Rom 6:18

What is confusing is the conscious desire to be righteous for the laws sake leads to failure, but the believer who sees Jesus and is a slave to righteousness, does the right thing because it flows from walking in the Spirit.

PeterJens · Oct 16, 2015

I have found those who have a problem with obedience to Jesus's commands have not understood grace at all.

Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.
1 John 2:4

The tension is without the right heart it is impossible to walk in righteousness, we need to be transformed within. This can take many years and lots of trials and issues worked through, but it does happen.

Too often people want to arrive at heaven by ignoring love and righteousness completely, believing this is what walking in grace is, rather than facing why we fail and slip so easily. This is why it is a path from redeemed sinner to victorious saint.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 16, 2015

senzi said:

Amen!

You have to water down the law to even consider stressing we must live by obedience. To a point where you are doing what you demand others to do.

Gods standard is perfection.

PeterJens · Oct 16, 2015

eternally-gratefull said:

What you have got to understand is in 21st century "perfection" means something different than Jesus saying

Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt 5:48

This perfection being talked about is saying you are a failure, righteousness or doing the right thing at any point, or in any way is not possible. This is a lie. But it is easier to admit defeat and give up than take love and life seriously.

Do not think the church or what is taught is neutral. It is the outflow of peoples lives and understanding, and many are severly compromised and paranoid. Jesus, Paul, Peter, John preached victory, the question is how.

Did Jesus go to the cross, was resurrected so that we could live in defeat? No. This is why faith is needed as a real exercise in your life, walking in the Spirit is not some game you play on the side, or only in going to church on sunday.

The way some people talk, being religious is what christianity is, because the heart never changes. Is this what you believe? I do not.

senzi · Oct 16, 2015

Amen Gods standard is perfection. The only way you can be righteous in God,s sight by obeying the law(being good enough) is by perfect obedience of it. Hence paul states:
All who rely on works of the law(striving to obey the law) are under a curse. Cursed is e eryone who does not continue to do everything written in the book of the law. Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because the righteous will live by faith. Gal3:10&11.
The reason you are cursed if you rely on obedience to the law to be justified/acceptable to God is you.cannot reach the standard under it to be justified which as you say is perfection, 100 percent perfect obedience

onlinebuddy · Oct 16, 2015

Roberth said:

Q: From what did Christ die to deliver me?
Ans:From sin
Q: What is sin?
Ans: For the Jew it is transgression of the law.
For the gentile (who does not have the law) sin can be
defined as: knowing the good one ought to do, and not doing it (1 James 4:17)
Also, sin, for the gentile, is breaking the law "written in the heart."
Q: Which law?
Ans: Let's not complicate matters
Q: Are you keeping the law?
Ans: I am not bound by the Mosiac law; so I don't have to keep it.
As far as the moral law is concerned, I have the words of Jesus.

Q: How are you saved then?
Ans: Through Jesus, because the Mosaic law could not save.
I am saved through faith in Jesus; belief that he died for my sins;
and have made a pledge not to live a life gratifying the desires of my flesh,
but to live by the Spirit.

onlinebuddy · Oct 16, 2015

Originally Posted by onlinebuddy

How can one die to the moral law? How can one be released from the moral law?

Roberth said:

Firstly, Paul was speaking to the Jews- those who knew the law.
Earlier, they were married to the law,
but now they accepted Jesus(while most Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah)
Now, they were married to Jesus.
By following Jesus, they died to the law (and it's requirements)
They were "released" from the law, and it had no authority over them, as it formerly had.

These words are added by you, Roberth.
"Old life from Adam" is not mentioned here.
You are adding your own words.

The context of Romans 6:6 is that Paul is telling the Romans not to be slaves to sin.
He says that the old self of sin was crucified with Christ (through repentance.)
These verse is not about the law or the "old life from Adam."

onlinebuddy · Oct 16, 2015

Roberth said:

Roberth,
The gospel (the good news) is found in the first 4 books of the New Testament.
It is also found in the Book of Acts, and the letters of Paul.
Paul preached more about dying to the law and being released from the law, as he was dealing with believing Jews.

Roberth,
You quote Paul all the time, and talk too much about the law and the old Adamic self.
Please check out Peter's speech in Acts 2. Wasn't that the gospel?
Didn't 3000 + people respond?
Is there is any mention of the law and the old Adamic self? I guess not.

Read the sermon on the mount (Matthew 5), and the speech of Stephen(Acts 7) and the speech of Peter (Acts 10). Isn't that the gospel?

You speak more law than the true gospel of Jesus.

PeterJens · Oct 16, 2015

Perfection

If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it.
Exodus 20:25

What is considered holy, pure, righteous is not what we regard as such. God regards His people as holy, pure, righteous. Now how can that be unless we are.

Paul appears to be saying we cannot judge ourselves only God can. But we are because of the outflow of our hearts righteous. He goes so far as to say he wants to capture even his stray thoughts under Christ.

Paul exhorts Timothy to live a pure life. Paul talks about his conscience being clear before men and God.
It is not we have not sinned or may not stumble in the future, but today, in Gods eyes we are righteous.

Now as much as you condemn yourselves, your failures, your sins that seem to entrap you, Jesus and the apostles say you can be righteous. Now it is an important thought. Why do you condemn that which is not sin as sin?
Why do you not see good works as just doing the right thing, because it is good to do, not because it justifies you or proves anything, it is just good. It is through doing we find where our heart is and can start to bring our hearts into line. Unless you start to obey and act, you will never grow or learn.

How do you ride a bicycle, by trying to ride it. When you fall over, you get up and try again. Walking with the Lord is no different, perfection and failure go hand in hand, until failure diminishes and you walk aright. Too many would say do not even try because disappointment is too hard, just accept being a failure. But it is Christ in the Spirit who empowers us.

Exercise faith and walk.

onlinebuddy · Oct 16, 2015

Roberth said:

The Book of Law included the moral and the ceremonial law.
No one had a problem with the moral law.
Paul had a problem with the "works of the law."
The believing Jews were trying to impose the "works of the law" (such as circumcision, observing special days, etc) into the Church.
That's why Paul is time and again reminding them
that their old life when they were married to the law was over.
That old life was dead, and therefore they were no longer under the obligation of the law.

Since you mentioned Gal 3, let me tell you that the context of that chapter was the same.
Paul is calling the Jews foolish, for relying on the works of the law.
After beginning with the Spirit, they were relying on the flesh v3
He reminds them that everyone who has faith in Christ is heir to the promise of Abraham.
Works leads to judgement, faith leads to life.
The gospel was announced in advance to Abraham. It was the gospel of faith, not of works v8-9
Those who have faith, are children of Abraham v7
The promise of Abraham was made to the seed (Christ, and his followers) and not to the seeds (nation or race of Israel) v16
The law given 430 years later does not nullify the promise to Abraham.v17
Why was the Law of Moses given? Because of transgression v19
How long was the law in effect? until the seed (Christ) v19
The law cannot impart life and righteousness cannot come by the law v21
Then he says that Law of Moses, which was given 430 years later
was just a guardian v24
In fact, the law, held the Jews in custody till Christ came. v23
Once Christ came, the Jews were not under the guardian (the law) v25
The promise to Abraham became a reality in Christ. The law pointed out man's sin and therefore made him see the need for a messiah.
After Christ came, both the Jews and the gentiles can become children of God through faith.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 16, 2015

PeterJens said:

perfect is perfect. it means not breaking even one command.

Gal 3: [SUP]10 [/SUP]For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

James agrees, when he says they if we break even the least of the commands, we are guilty of the whole law.

PeterJens · Oct 16, 2015

Dear reader, listen to Jesus

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven....Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matt 5:44 - 48

Now listen to the legalists. You are a sinner because you are not perfect. Here is a list of laws, and a list of evil thoughts, and all the good things you fail to do, so you are infinitely evil. You are so bad if I say you can be redeemed walking in love, that is now evil, hypocracy.

Jesus is saying something very simple. Learn how to love from the heart, not just show, or because it looks good, and you will be perfect like your Father in heaven is perfect.

So here is the victory. From the outflow of your heart you will obey Jesus commands if you walk in the Spirit. Paul calls it being a slave to righteousness. Now to deny this is possible, the law will be taken and they will say you cannot walk in love or being perfect, because one sin means you have failed. This failure is the definition of legalism.
We do not fail because of one failure point, we fail if we stop loving which happens if we do not repent and allow sin to fester.

If we stop loving, we do not have the energy of obey Jesus, we wither and die. So weirdly those who claim not to be legalists are the real legalists because they deny the power of love to change the heart. Sin creates a problem, but we just repent when it appears and walk on.

Christians talk about satan says this and that. But satan condemns christians, disappoints them, talks about their failures, and gets them to ignore Jesus and the cross, and just says look at the church, it fragility and difficulties. So why is this power a failure? Because the law says one sin means you fail. But Jesus says the Spirit overcomes through faith so we walk in righteousness.

We can never walk as Jesus walked. But this has never been Jesus's words or aim. He said we could be like Him. I am not saying I have arrived, I am just saying this is what Jesus said. Do you believe Him?
Or do you believe the preachers and teachers who do not know how to unlock the door.

Jesus one issue about mankind is we do not love as our first reaction. But the Lord says, that is who I am, but you need to be like me, in communion with me or you are my enemy. So how can people claim to be following Jesus but their drive is not learn how to love everyone, through the power of the cross. That is the power of Jesus.

What are you going to do? Ignore the cross and love, or start to walk in the Kingdom?

Roberth · Oct 16, 2015

PeterJens said:

Stop trying to hijack this thread to subject of works....It's about the gospel.

Roberth · Oct 16, 2015

PeterJens said:

Yes, that's nice, but this thread is not about our experience, but the gospel. Comprehend?

Roberth · Oct 16, 2015

onlinebuddy said:

Back to Romans 5:18 "So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men...."

Adam's sin polluted his humanity. Since our lives are the multiplication of his fallen life, all men stand condemned without Christ.

Now, drop down to verse 20:

"The Law came in so that the transgression would increase..."

God's law was never given as a means of salvation. The law was given to turn sinners into transgressors. Why? So that the sinner, now a transgressor, might see his need of the righteousness of Christ.

If you do away with the law you do away with your need of Christ's righteousness received by faith.

Roberth · Oct 16, 2015

onlinebuddy said:

But of course, let's not complicate things. Instead you should ignore the context of Romans 7:4-7 so you can twist Paul's words to say anything your heart desires....I would hate for context and truth to burden you!

Roberth · Oct 16, 2015

onlinebuddy said:

You are being dishonest. You are ignoring the context of Rom 7:4-7. You are inserting something Paul is not stating either out of ignorance or intentionally.

Before you came to Christ you were bound by the law.

It's utter nonsense to state that the moral law was for the Jew only.

Roberth · Oct 16, 2015

onlinebuddy said:

What a lie! What a lie! (shaking my head)

"knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him..." Rom 6:6

Our old self was (past tense) crucified with Christ. That was about 2000 years ago; not when you repented.

Again, you are being disingenuous.

Roberth · Oct 16, 2015

onlinebuddy said:

If you don't like it, don't read it....

How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

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