How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[Roberth]

They died to the sin. Not automatically, but it was a conscious decision.
Galatians 5:24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires
They died to sin, and came under Christ's saving grace.
Therefore they are no longer obligated or bound to the law.
There are neither to fear nor promote the law.
Their first husband was the law.
They have now been released from the law.
Their second husband is Jesus, who set them free by grace.
They cannot have two husbands,
meaning they cannot be under the law and under grace at the same time.

You are making this up out out of thin air. You are not using the context. The context is Romans 7. If you can't admit that Paul had the moral law in mind then you are being disingenuous and I have no desire to continue.

The context:

Romans 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law (not to sin as you say) through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.....6 But now, by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. 7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

 

[Roberth]

The context:

Romans 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law (not to sin as you say) through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.....6 But now, by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. 7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

The Ten Commandments

Ex 20:1 And God spoke all these words: 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand [ generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments. 7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. 8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. 12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you. 13 "You shall not murder. 14 "You shall not commit adultery. 15 "You shall not steal. 16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. 17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

 

[Roberth]

I never was under the Law or its works. So I am not accountable to the law.

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

Gal 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

 

[onlinebuddy]

When Paul said "law" in verse 1, he wasn't talking about the law "written on the hearts" of the Gentiles.

It's the same law....Come on!

How can it be the same?
The law written on the hearts of man was a knowledge of right and wrong, so that man has no excuse. Paul says, "they are a law for themselves."
So, the law "written on the hearts" of gentiles, is different from Book of Law to the Jews.

 

[Roberth]

When Paul said "law" in verse 1, he wasn't talking about the law "written on the hearts" of the Gentiles.


How can it be the same?
The law written on the hearts of man was a knowledge of right and wrong, so that man has no excuse. Paul says, "they are a law for themselves."
So, the law "written on the hearts" of gentiles, is different from Book of Law to the Jews.

The moral law is written in the heart....not "the book of the law".....

 

[onlinebuddy]

Roberth, your doctrine is in error because you assume that verses addressed to the Jews(who are the ones under the Law) are applicable to everyone. You insist on putting all mankind under the Law.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Yes, but in Romans 7 Paul isn't discussing the law of Moses. He discussing the moral law.

How can one die to the moral law?
How can one be released from the moral law?
How can one even question the moral law?
If someone dies to the moral law, they have rejected God.

 

[onlinebuddy]

The moral law is written in the heart....not "the book of the law".....

The Jews before Christ:
The Jews had the Law of Moses, the Book of Law,
and were bound by the Mosaic Covenant.
The Jews were obligated to the Book of Law.
The Jews were to be judged by the Book of Law,
whether or not they have kept all the 600+ requirements.

The gentiles before Christ:
The gentiles did not have or know the Book of Law,
and therefore were not obligated to it or under it.
Yes, the gentiles had no excuse,
because they had the law written on their hearts.
The law written in their hearts is an instinctive sense
of what is right and wrong,
(and is not exactly as the 10 Commandments states).
Every person is born with a sense of right and wrong,
it's just that they are naturally bent towards the flesh.
The gentiles are obligated to the law written in their hearts,
and will be judged according to the law written in their hearts.
How? Only God can tell, since only He knows the motives of their hearts.
Only God can tell if they were faithful to the law written in their hearts.
So they will be judged according to the law written their hearts,
and not according to the Book of Law of Moses.

After Christ:
There is no difference between Jew (who were under the Law) or gentile (who did not know the Law).
Each has an equal opportunity to accept Jesus and his saving grace.
Neither the Jew nor the gentile is righteous. All have sinned.
All need Jesus.

 

[senzi]

If someone dies to the moral law they have rejected God? (As in rom ch7)
Christians die to a law of righteous ness, that is what paul means by dying to the law

 

[Roberth]

Roberth, your doctrine is in error because you assume that verses addressed to the Jews (who are the ones under the Law) are applicable to everyone. You insist on putting all mankind under the Law.

Then from what did Christ come to deliver you?

If you say sin, what is sin? Answer: Transgression of the law? Which law? Answer: The moral law. Paul says I would not have know sin unless the law (the moral law) had said "you shall not covet".

Are you keeping the law? Answer: No! If you say yes, then you don't need Christ because you are a holy Joe. So Christ has not saved you, the individual, from sinning because you aren't fulfiling the law as Christ did.

 

[Roberth]

How can one die to the moral law? How can one be released from the moral law?

Paul has the answer. It's right in front of your eyes:

Rom 7:4 "you also died to the law through the body of Christ"

In other words your old life from Adam died in the humanity of Christ (Romans 6:6). Hence "in Christ" the justice of the law has been ethically and legally maintained.

 

[PeterJens]

moral law

The law of Moses is not the moral law, it is Gods law as given to Israel. If you wanted peace with God you had to be a Jew.
All the law built up to a statement as to what was wrong with man and how you could gain acceptance into his Kingdom.

Jesus fulfilled the law, every last part and set us free, as Paul said to be slave of righteousness.
Righteousness fulfills the moral law. The work of Christ in our hearts means we follow this law because it is the right thing to do. But it is not like the written law, it is the law of love flowing from our hearts out to those we meet.

You are therefore not being scriptural in your definition. If you say there are no moral principles, conscience does not matter, righteousness is irrelevent, you undo the work of the cross, conviction for sin etc.

It seems to me you are confused.

 

[PeterJens]

The gospel is saying without communion with the Lord, without being born again we can never be truly moral.
So the law will always condemn because for the unsaved it is a measure of failure. But sin is like an illness which will kill you, it is not how it demonstrates itself, the fundamental flaw is we need God in our hearts, we need to be in the Kingdom.

For the saved the moral law is merely one way of confirming the work God is doing in us. It is no longer a measure because the written law is always limited to circumstance. You can never define morality in absolutes, which is why we end up failing in difficult situations. A person is dying, in great pain and agony. Pain relief will kill them, and give them relief from the pain at the same time, but doing nothing is like torture.

I would give pain relief, not second thought, as there are no other alternatives. Death is not the problem, love and being spiritually in communion with God is. On the other hand pain through depression is not terminal, it is a life perception, linked with emotional response. Drug treatments will not lead to death, just emotional numbing, with possible relief using cbt. But some say any pain should allow the person to choose to exit, which is immoral, is actual murder.

Paul talks about his conscience, being an important guide. You need to work things through, before the Lord. Again this is not law or morals, it is finding out why something upsets you, or makes you feel you have done something wrong.
Often bringing it to the Lord can put things into perspective.

Jesus says we are in the Kingdom if we walk with Him, not we will be in the Kingdom when we die or he returns.
Too many do not take Him at His word, or understand what walking in the Kingdom is.

 

[Roberth]

The law of Moses is not the moral law, it is Gods law as given to Israel.

The law of Moses is "the book of the law" (Pentateuch). It contains the moral law.

 

[Roberth]

You are therefore not being scriptural in your definition. If you say there are no moral principles, conscience does not matter, righteousness is irrelevent, you undo the work of the cross, conviction for sin etc.

It seems to me you are confused.

I'm discussing the gospel. The gospel is how Christ saved the fallen race in Himself. What you are writing about is the fruits of accepting the gospel (sanctification), not the gospel. The gospel is what Christ did, with no human contribution. Hence the gospel is "not I, but Christ".

Apparently you are the one that's confused. Back to topic!

 

[PeterJens]

I'm discussing the gospel. .... The gospel is what Christ did, with no human contribution....

Apparently you are the one that's confused. Back to topic!

You have not answered my point. The point is morality has a purpose, it is a thing. Jesus did not get rid of morality.
Your version of the gospel is an idea morality is the issue and Christ died to remove morality.

Also there is a human element is salvation, the believers response. Without this or walking with Jesus their is no salvation.
You are also missing an important moral issue. Sin creates a debt, a cost, something that needs to be put right.

But is the debt merely in Gods court, or is it in the sinners life also? Is part of sin or its cause because we do not know God or His nature, we excuse our behaviour because of hurt and pain done to us? Is this why we cannot be moral, because we neither have the motivation, the perspective or the heart to be moral.

Now if God plants within us through His word a moral heart, then morality is still important and active. If we are called to be righteous as the fruit of Jesus's word, then the moral law still matters.

I think you are using christian jargon without knowing its true meaning.

 

[onlinebuddy]

If someone dies to the moral law they have rejected God? (As in rom ch7)
Christians die to a law of righteous ness, that is what paul means by dying to the law

Can you please explain the "law of righteousness?"

 

[PeterJens]

Dear reader,

What is spiritual new birth? I remember years ago realising morality, love, hope, disappointment all hang together, very neatly in Jesus and with reference to the law and righteousness. It was like without this framework things were a mess.

I have walked with Jesus so long I find it hard to think outside this at all.
What struck me was the link between the golden snake held up by Moses and Jesus on the cross.
People were healed if they looked at the snake, and then I thought, is this also true in seeing Jesus.
God dying so that we might be forgiven. God forgiving the worst sin possible, killing God for no crime, taking the best in the universe and trampling it, and still he rises, loving and forgiving those who walk in His ways.

That love is like a blinding light in the darkness of selfishness, greed, envy, bitterness, I want, self pity etc.
It says in Jesus there are no excuses, He will go and do the impossible for you if you trust Him.

Have you ever in your life met anyone who came this close to doing or saying this to you? I know the answer is no.
But look at the cross, and realise who is there and why? That is salvation, to know this.
It changes you. But only those who are called see this, and walk in it.

They are not longer the ungodly but the just and righteous, those who have been cleansed and made whole.

 

[PeterJens]

Can you please explain the "law of righteousness?"

I think Paul is trying to summarise your hearts desire to do the right loving thing in every situation.
He compares the slavery to sin, where you are addicted to sinful behaviour that just repeats and you do not know how to get out of it, to the redeemed being slaves to searching for the right response and working for the good of everyone.

He wants to separate this from the law which was a set of codified rules, which just said this behaviour is wrong, but not why or how, dealing with motivation, so therefore condemned people rather than resolved why they were failing.

 

[senzi]

Paul said:
Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness, for everyone who believeth romans10:4
A law of righteousness is seeking to attain heaven by obedience to the law(that is your justification before God), something the majority of those who go to church seek.

I asked a pentecostal a couple of weeks ago what a christian must do to attain heaven. She reolied. Obey the ten commandments.I gotthe same reoly from someone in a denomination that is nit mainstream. It is tragic, for they and countless others are seeking jystification under the law, not by faith in christ. This is why so many churches see su ch little power in them. A diluted message veings weak results