How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[Roberth]

Galatians 3:23-25 is again addressed to the Jews, who were under the Law.

Paul:

Rom 3:9 What then? are we (Jews) better than they (the Gentiles)? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, "There is none righteous, no, not one"

How many are righteous? None, neither Jew or Gentile. We are all under sin (meaning our bent-to-self).

Now here's Paul's conclusion:

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith , it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped , and all the world (i.e., the whole human race, not just the Jew) may become guilty before God.

If you don't have Christ it doesn't matter if you are a Jew or Gentile, you are under law. The law demands righteousness. Since there is none, neither Jew or Gentiles who is righteous, then God's law demands death to the sinner.

 

[Roberth]

Romans 2:12 is not saying that God will judge (or condemn) mankind in general according to the Law.

Romans 5:12 "all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law"

"All" (not just the Jew) who have sinned under law will be judged and condemned by God's law. The standard in the judgement is the law (the moral law). If you have Christ you have been delivered from under the law. In the judgment the law can't touch you because "in Christ" you stand perfectly righteousness before God's law. But, again, if you have rejected the gospel you remain under law.

 

[dcontroversal]

It is called grace, mercy and love.....God is fair...it is not my fault that I was born with Adam's fallen sinful nature which is weak and wants to sin.....hence God's ability to justify me freely based upon faith, mercy, love and grace......and I will add....all based upon the intercessory work of his Son which was begun before the world was even cast down......

 

[Roberth]

...it is not my fault that I was born with Adam's fallen sinful nature which is weak and wants to sin.....hence God's ability to justify me freely based upon faith, mercy, love and grace......

No, it's not your fault, but if you remain under law you will die. Hence you accepted Christ. When you did you went from under law to under grace. However, as believers, we are not called to enjoy sin even though we fall short of God's will for our lives.

 

[Roberth]

He's not seeking answers; he has an agenda that is contrary to Jesus Christ's saving grace. At best he's a legalist, or worse, he could be a demonic spirit doing what demonic spirits do.

I have reported you to the moderators. This is unchristian behavior to the highest order.

Robert

 

[Roberth]

I just realized the problem with this thread. You are setting yourself up to set limits on God. You have no such authority.

God can't sin, right? It is impossible for God to sin.

God's law demands your death. Christ's death instead of your is unjust...it's a lie. Therefore since God cannot lie, then we must agree that "your old life died" (Rom 6:6), because the law demanded it (Rom 7:4). Thus God can remain true to His law and yet justify you freely "in Himself."

 

[dcontroversal]

No, it's not your fault, but if you remain under law you will die. Hence you accepted Christ. When you did you went from under law to under grace. However, as believers, we are not called to enjoy sin even though we fall short of God's will for our lives.

Where did I say that we should enjoy sin? The body is dead because of sin.....and I am fully under grace and justified by the perfect faith of Christ...Galatians 2

 

[Kefa54]

Because He is God.

 

[Kaycie]

Sin has to pay the price, and God found His Son's blood to be a worthy price for sin. (Talk about expensive!)

 

[onlinebuddy]

God can't sin, right? It is impossible for God to sin.

God's law demands your death. Christ's death instead of your is unjust...it's a lie. Therefore since God cannot lie, then we must agree that "your old life died" (Rom 6:6), because the law demanded it (Rom 7:4). Thus God can remain true to His law and yet justify you freely "in Himself."

God's law demands your death.

What kind of death is that?
Can you elaborate on how you died as one who is under the Law?
So you are saying that by dying, you have paid the penalty for not being able to keep the Law.
This means that no grace was given to you.
Why then, according to you, did Christ have to die?

 

[onlinebuddy]

Roberth,
I have read your responses , but I will take some time to reply. However, here are some things I would like to bring to your notice.

The Law was transitory; the new covenant established by Jesus lasts forever
11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
2 Cor 3:11

Jesus made the Law obsolete (and outdated) and it is meant to disappear
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. Heb 8:13

Jesus is the culmination (and fulfillment) of the Law
Christ is the culmination of the law
so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Romans 10:4

You are either under the Law OR under Christ.
You cannot be under the law; then pay for your sins by "dying," and then accept Grace without accepting that Jesus died for your ungodliness.
Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision,
Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3
I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that
he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are a severed from Christ,
you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
Gal 5:4

Now I know that you will not agree with me, because you have understood the gospel in another way.




In reference to Gal 5:4, kindly explain the following:
Context: Some Jews said that the Gentiles should be circumcised, according to the Law. Right?
Paul is telling them that if they accept circumcision, they will have to keep the whole law(which no one can). Right?
Now you have a way out (a solution): You say that one must "die" to pay for breaking the Law. Then one must accept grace that came through Christ. Did I understand you correctly?
You say that the "die" (or dying) part happened 2000 years ago (before you were even born). You say that all men automatically died 2000 years ago when Jesus died? Right?
So according to you, Jesus did not die to pay for our sins. Rather he died so that we may die(automatically) under the Law! Am I understanding you correct?

In the context of Gal 5:4, if you were in Paul's place, and a Gentile believer would say to you, "Thank you Roberth, that I do not have to be circumcised! What must I do now?"
What, Roberth, would your advice be? (I'm just trying to understand your viewpoint)

 

[Roberth]

Jesus made the Law obsolete (and outdated)

If Jesus made the moral law obsolete then His death as the son of man (and hence our death in Him) was totally unnecessary. Instead of "taking the curse of the law" God could have simply abolished the law.

The law was not abolished. Instead of the law meeting its demise, we met our end in the body of Christ. Why? The law demanded our death. As Romans 7:4 states "we died to the law in the body of Christ". Hence our old died in Him and the law has been satisfied.

What you have done is typical....You have made void God's law, which is the basis of His government. If you do away with the law you do away with defining sin. If you can't define sin then you can't call yourself a sinner and further more you can't see your need of Christ.

 

[Roberth]

What you have done is typical....You have made void God's law, which is the basis of His government. If you do away with the law you do away with defining sin. If you can't define sin then you can't call yourself a sinner and further more you can't see your need of Christ.

Here's Paul, well after the cross:

Romans 7:6-7 [FONT=helvetica, arial]But now, by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.[/FONT][FONT=Roboto, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]

Notice that we were released, not because the law was abolished, but because we died "in Christ" because the law demanded our death.

[/FONT]
7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

What law states "you shall not covet"? Answer: The moral law.

The function of God's law is to drive the sinner to Christ so that he might be justified by faith. (See Gal chapter 3) If you do away with the law, you do away with one's need of Christ's righteousness.

 

[posthuman]

If you do away with the law, you do away with one's need of Christ's righteousness.

if He has clothed you in His own righteousness, you have no more need of the law.

the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ,
that we might be justified by faith.
(Galatians 3:24)

​

​

 

[onlinebuddy]

If Jesus made the moral law obsolete then His death as the son of man (and hence our death in Him) was totally unnecessary. Instead of "taking the curse of the law" God could have simply abolished the law.

The law was not abolished. Instead of the law meeting its demise, we met our end in the body of Christ. Why? The law demanded our death. As Romans 7:4 states "we died to the law in the body of Christ". Hence our old died in Him and the law has been satisfied.

What you have done is typical....You have made void God's law, which is the basis of His government. If you do away with the law you do away with defining sin. If you can't define sin then you can't call yourself a sinner and further more you can't see your need of Christ.

God's moral law is reflected in the teachings of Jesus; for eg: the sermon on the mount. The sermon on the mount takes God's righteous requirements and the definition of sin to a much higher level.
The Mosiac law and its requirements (such as circumcision) were made obsolete by Jesus. Once the Law was fulfilled, it would no longer be in effect. Jesus has fulfilled the law and made it obsolete. I have provided the verses in one of my posts above.

Those who were born after the New Covenant was established by Jesus, are not under the Law. If you would share the gospel with a tribe in the Amazon, who have never heard of the Law, what would you tell them? Would you teach them the Law or would you teach them faith in the Son of God?

The Law was a transitory phase; a shadow; a schoolmaster.
Jesus, the Son of God, who came in flesh, is the reality of the Law.

and hence our death in Him

What kind of death is that?
Can you elaborate on how you died as one who is under the Law?
So you are saying that by dying, you have paid the penalty for not being able to keep the Law.
This means that no grace was given to you.
Why then, according to you, did Christ have to die?

we met our end in the body of Christ

How did we meet our end?
What died? The body, the soul, the spirit, the sinful nature....

The law demanded our death

The Law demanded the death of those who were born under it. We are born under the New Covenant of grace.

As Romans 7:4 states "we died to the law in the body of Christ". Hence our old died in Him and the law has been satisfied.

Paul was speaking to those who knew the Law (v1) and who were born under the Law.

What you have done is typical....You have made void God's law

...and you have made void the sacrifice of Jesus, because you claim to have yourself died for not being able to keep the Law. So you are actually implying that Christ and his sacrifice is not required.

 

[Proverbs_Four]

God's states, through Ezekiel, that an innocent, sinless man such as Christ, can't die for sinners who have broken His law.

First of all, this ...man... is God!

hahahahaha ...

 

[posthuman]

made void the sacrifice of Jesus, because you claim to have yourself died for not being able to keep the Law. So you are actually implying that Christ and his sacrifice is not required.

hey, read the first 15 or so verses of Romans 6.
it's pretty clear that we have died -- this is accomplished in us, in Christ.

if i'm understanding you right, Robert, mainly what you're saying is that (a) our death occurred at the moment Christ died on the cross ((whatever argument i have with that is based on the transcendence of the event with regard to time, so in my view that's homomorphically true, yes)) & (b) in regard to the justice of the law, and its fulfillment, our death in Christ satisfies the requirement of sin.

is that about right? please clear me up if i'm misrepresenting you.

i don't see you placing us under law here - being a 'legalist' - but sorting out how the law is fulfilled in us as believers, being immersed in Christ, without our having been physically made subject to the blood requirement. He Himself bore the penalty, and the burden of our sin, so that we, through Him, might have life. i am sure this doesn't contradict the law any more than any sacrifice of an unblemished animal did under Moses.

 

[posthuman]

Rom 5:18

So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted (past tense, refers to the cross) justification of life to all men. (NASB*)

* https://www.biblegateway.com/versions/New-American-Standard-Bible-NASB/

"The original NASB has earned the reputation of being the most accurate English Bible translation"

we need to read 5:17 along with that. not all are justified, but only those who receive it. what 5:18 is saying is that His blood is sufficient to justify all men -- not that all men are therefore justified.

by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
(Matthew 12:37)​

else why does Christ speak of condemnation, if there is none at all any longer?
but whoever confesses "Jesus is Lord" is justified, and whoever does not, remains condemned. if everyone is justified no matter whether they believe or not, why bother having faith, and being hated by the world because of it? and clearly, from Romans 6, and many more places, it is those who have become immersed in Christ and who trust in Him who have died with Him, not "all men" regardless of whether they reject Him or not.

 

[posthuman]

Romans 3:

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.


all have sinned and need to be justified. (23)
the righteousness that justifies is apart from the law & is revealed (21)
all are justified freely, by grace, not works. (24)
not all receive this justification: only those who believe (22)
righteousness is imputed and justification is given by faith, not by works, on the basis of believing on Christ (22)

we all agree with this, i hope?

 

[posthuman]

...and you have made void the sacrifice of Jesus, because you claim to have yourself died for not being able to keep the Law. So you are actually implying that Christ and his sacrifice is not required.

now if someone claims Christ did not die, then His sacrifice is more than made void - it's denied. and that doesn't jive with either the gospels or any of the epistles, it also doesn't jive with what's explained in Hebrews and written all over the Torah - that without shedding of blood, there isn't any forgiveness.
having died spiritually to sin, being crucified spiritually to sin, our blood wasn't shed. His blood was shed. that is where the requirement of the law was fulfilled -

Robert can you make it more clear whether you believe Christ literally died and bore the penalty of our sin, or whether you believe we ourselves bear our own penalty via transcendent transference to His person on the cross? because as i understand it, through faith we take part in Christ's literal death - Himself bearing the penalty, Himself shedding the blood - so that unless He did in fact die, it remains for us to do so, and we have no savior from sin. because He was also raised, we know we will also be raised with Him (and how could He be raised from the dead if He did not die?) - because our lives are no longer our own, but in Him. as we share in His death, we share in His resurrection, and in His righteousness, and thereby we are made free from the penalty of sin, and alive to God in Him, because He fulfilled the law, and He lived, and He died, and He lives again forever -- so iff (if and only if) we are part in Him, so we also.

i hope onlinebuddy's not right, but i'm tossed up because i'm not sure i get what you're trying to say. i suspect you don't quite get what some of the other people in the thread are saying either.