How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[onlinebuddy]

hey, read the first 15 or so verses of Romans 6.
it's pretty clear that we have died -- this is accomplished in us, in Christ.

if i'm understanding you right, Robert, mainly what you're saying is that (a) our death occurred at the moment Christ died on the cross ((whatever argument i have with that is based on the transcendence of the event with regard to time, so in my view that's homomorphically true, yes)) & (b) in regard to the justice of the law, and its fulfillment, our death in Christ satisfies the requirement of sin.

is that about right? please clear me up if i'm misrepresenting you.

i don't see you placing us under law here - being a 'legalist' - but sorting out how the law is fulfilled in us as believers, being immersed in Christ, without our having been physically made subject to the blood requirement. He Himself bore the penalty, and the burden of our sin, so that we, through Him, might have life. i am sure this doesn't contradict the law any more than any sacrifice of an unblemished animal did under Moses.

it's pretty clear that we have died

What kind of death was that?
We were born in the 20th century. Logically speaking, how could we die 2000 years ago?
This is the question I'm asking all along.
Also, what did that death do to our status? Did it wipe our slate clean?

Please explain the concept of "transcendence" and "homomorphism."

in regard to the justice of the law, and its fulfillment, our death in Christ satisfies the requirement of sin

Again, what kind of death did we die? Why would we look to the law for justice? We are not obligated to the Law.

Are you saying that man's death (in whatever form, and in whatever transcendence of time) was his penalty according to the Law?

i don't see you placing us under law here

Roberth places himself under the law. He said in one of his posts that: he was under the Law before he came to believe in Christ. (pls correct me if I'm wrong)

If every man who ever lived died when Jesus died, why did God

but sorting out how the law is fulfilled in us as believers, being immersed in Christ

We believers cannot fulfill the law. Only Jesus was capable of that.

being immersed in Christ, without our having been physically made subject to the blood requirement.

Why did man need Christ, if the death he died 2000 years ago was required by the Law. What did that death do to our status? Did it fulfill the blood requirement? If that death did not fulfill the blood requirement why was that death required by the Law?

My Bible says in Romans 1: 2 that we died....but we died to sin, and that happened when we made Jesus, (the Son of God, who came in the flesh), our Lord!

 

[onlinebuddy]

now if someone claims Christ did not die, then His sacrifice is more than made void - it's denied. and that doesn't jive with either the gospels or any of the epistles, it also doesn't jive with what's explained in Hebrews and written all over the Torah - that without shedding of blood, there isn't any forgiveness.
having died spiritually to sin, being crucified spiritually to sin, our blood wasn't shed. His blood was shed. that is where the requirement of the law was fulfilled -

Robert can you make it more clear whether you believe Christ literally died and bore the penalty of our sin, or whether you believe we ourselves bear our own penalty via transcendent transference to His person on the cross? because as i understand it, through faith we take part in Christ's literal death - Himself bearing the penalty, Himself shedding the blood - so that unless He did in fact die, it remains for us to do so, and we have no savior from sin. because He was also raised, we know we will also be raised with Him (and how could He be raised from the dead if He did not die?) - because our lives are no longer our own, but in Him. as we share in His death, we share in His resurrection, and in His righteousness, and thereby we are made free from the penalty of sin, and alive to God in Him, because He fulfilled the law, and He lived, and He died, and He lives again forever -- so iff (if and only if) we are part in Him, so we also.

i hope onlinebuddy's not right, but i'm tossed up because i'm not sure i get what you're trying to say. i suspect you don't quite get what some of the other people in the thread are saying either.

having died spiritually to sin, being crucified spiritually to sin, our blood wasn't shed. His blood was shed. that is where the requirement of the law was fulfilled

Dying to sin, and being crucified with Christ as a result, are conscious decisions. Did we have any consciousness 2000 years ago?

through faith we take part in Christ's literal death

Please do me a favour, posthuman. Where else in the Bible does it say that immersion was literal participation in the death of Christ. I know the NT is replete with words such as "buried with him" and "died with him." I thought that our immersion was symbolic. Symbolic, because we did not feel the pain (except the pain of hurting God). We were not shamed. Our blood was not shed. Yes, when we came out of the waters, our spirits were renewed by His power. Our bodies and minds and sinful natures were still intact (that that's how we will be till we see his glory when he returns). What was different was that when we came out of the immersion waters, we made a pledge never to play with sin again, and to always to live for Christ. Our new resolve was strengthened by the Holy Spirit given to us.

Robert can you make it more clear whether you believe Christ literally died and bore the penalty of our sin,

If my memory serves me right, RobertH believes that Christ died, but he does not believe Christ died for the sins we had committed. Robert believes that Christ did not take our punishment, because a righteous person cannot be punished instead of a sinner, according to THE LAW.

i hope onlinebuddy's not right,

Brothers, if i'm wrong, I would be more than happy to stand corrected. I know we have Christ in common, but we tend to converse at different wavelengths, since our understanding of the extent of His grace differs.

 

[onlinebuddy]

**correction: it was Romans 6:2 (not Romans 1:2, as I had mentioned 2 posts ago...)

 

[Roberth]

if He has clothed you in His own righteousness, you have no more need of the law.

the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ,
that we might be justified by faith.
(Galatians 3:24)

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When did the law point you to Christ? Within the last 100 years, unless you are older than that, right? That means that the law wasn't done away with at the cross. If it was you wouldn't have known you are a sinner in need of Christ. Think it out....

 

[Roberth]

...if i'm understanding you right, Robert, mainly what you're saying is that (a) our death occurred at the moment Christ died on the cross ..... (b) in regard to the justice of the law, and its fulfillment, our death in Christ satisfies the requirement of sin.

is that about right? please clear me up if i'm misrepresenting you.

Bingo, you've got it....

 

[FreeNChrist]

Bingo, you've got it....

Okay, now what?

 

[onlinebuddy]

When did the law point you to Christ? Within the last 100 years, unless you are older than that, right? That means that the law wasn't done away with at the cross. If it was you wouldn't have known you are a sinner in need of Christ. Think it out....

The Book of Galatians was written about 57AD; that is one thousand nine hundred and fifty eight years ago.
Paul is speaking to the Galatians, and not to posthuman or Roberth or onlinebuddy.

When did the Law point the Galatians to Christ? About 1958 years ago...

Going offline now....will write more later....

 

[Ahwatukee]

The Book of Galatians was written about 57AD; that is one thousand nine hundred and fifty eight years ago.
Paul is speaking to the Galatians, and not to posthuman or Roberth or onlinebuddy.

When did the Law point the Galatians to Christ? About 1958 years ago...

Everything written was for those of that time and to whom it was written to and was also written for those who belong to the entire church period. What God is saying through Paul to the Galatians, he is saying to us and the same with all the letters of Scripture.

 

[MarcR]

The Book of Galatians was written about 57AD; that is one thousand nine hundred and fifty eight years ago.
Paul is speaking to the Galatians, and not to posthuman or Roberth or onlinebuddy.

When did the Law point the Galatians to Christ? About 1958 years ago...

Going offline now....will write more later....

What you say is undeniably true; but, all that is included in cannon is there because of a consensus that it contains teaching that is valuable to the Church in all times and places.

 

[Utah]

Why are you making false accusations? Perhaps a moderator needs to be informed of your unchristian behavior....

You actually caught me on a good day.

 

[Utah]

I have reported you to the moderators. This is unchristian behavior to the highest order.

Robert

We are instructed to use discernment and question spirits. You join CC and create a thread questioning God's integrity. You better believe I'm going to challenge you. To God be the glory!

 

[Roberth]

The Book of Galatians was written about 57AD......

You've made my point. The law was still around after the cross.

 

[Roberth]

We are instructed to use discernment and question spirits. You join CC and create a thread questioning God's integrity. You better believe I'm going to challenge you. To God be the glory!

You aren't using discernment; you are judging and accusing. I will put you on ignore from here forward.

 

[Roberth]

Okay, now what?

I don't follow....What does your question refer to?

 

[Roberth]

My Bible says ....that we died....but we died to sin, and that happened when we made Jesus, (the Son of God, who came in the flesh), our Lord!

So then, you aren't sinning? You are without sin????

 

[FreeNChrist]

I don't follow....What does your question refer to?

Jesus died and we died with Him, is that it?

 

[Roberth]

Robert believes that Christ did not take our punishment, because a righteous person cannot be punished instead of a sinner, according to THE LAW.

You are confused.....

 

[Roberth]

Those who were born after the New Covenant was established by Jesus, are not under the Law.

The NC was legally established at the cross, but before the cross Abraham was justified by faith alone. He was under the NC.

You aren't born under the NC. You are born under the power of sin and when the law exposes your situation you come under law. To escape the law you need to accept Christ. Then you come under grace, the NC.

 

[PeterJens]

How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5]

You are right in one sense of the phrase. God cannot justify sinners, but he can give them new life.
There are some concepts that link together. Jesus died to show death has been conquered. Jesus became human to demonstrate God understands us and comes to our exact situation and level and still lives without sin.

The whole process was to demonstrate the depth of Gods acceptance of those who will turn to him. Through this demonstration sin is washed away, a new relationship born. All the damage done because of sin, is healed in the believer.
The price to forgive or heal the sin was Jesus had to die, to accept the worst people could throw at him and forgive it.
How deeper demonstration of love and acceptance do you need.

As a result of belief new life is born in the heart, so they are no longer sinners but redeemed. But this new birth needs to grow and become the full redeemed individual to properly take effect. Without this all is still lost.

 

[Roberth]

God cannot justify sinners, but he can give them new life..

No, He has justified the ungodly in Christ. But how? That's my reason for asking how did He justify us in Christ?

Rom 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a just man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood (his life laid down in death) how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the atonement.