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Rainrider

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Jun 17, 2017
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Hebrews 10:19-22​
Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, and having a High Priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.


If this is not a change of the old law, it is a new law which supplants the old - as the scripture also testifies in another place, 'to those under the Law, I became as under the Law, and to those without the Law, I became as without the Law, though not being lawless but under the Law of Christ'

the Apostle cannot say this if he, by flesh a Jew, has not been wholly removed from the Law and placed into freedom in Christ.

take the whole counsel, friend @Rainrider, not only your favorite verse in Matthew.
You seem to over look that we are talking of the EARTHLY temple. That or you just garbing for what ever you can find that may back your understanding. However, as it seems you may be saying we no longer need an intercessor you may wish to keep in mind.

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

So how does this tie in with mat. 5:17-18? The Law does require an intercessor, that being the High priest. Yeshua being our High priest now fills that for us. No change to the laws, or any part of it.
 

Rainrider

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Jun 17, 2017
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which, there is no such thing,
anymore.
((why is this God's perfect will?))

i repeat:

Colossians 3:2-3​
Set your minds on things above,
not on earthly things.
For you died,
and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.
As it stands there is not Temple. However as I pointed out, the 3rd Temple must in place for prophecy to be fulfilled. Again I say, it seems you have vary little understanding of the WHOLE of the Word, and work with the limited understand of things you hear.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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I believe his point was that he doesn't need a building to do so...he is already doing so.
Yet we have an intercessor, a High Priest if you will. It is ONLY through Yeshua that we may enter into HaShem. So that fits well with no change to the law. After all If Yeshua told us not one jot or title will be removed. When we try to change that, we place what ever passage we wish to use in direct conflict with the Words of Yeshua.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,840
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Asked and answered. In fact it was answer in a direct manner, that goes to the heart of it.
i think you don't understand still that "because it fulfills prophecy" is absolutely not an answer to "why did this have to happen?"


suppose we ask why did the Messiah have to suffer.
if we say 'because it was prophesied He would suffer' that does not tell us why He had to suffer. it wasn't only tells us that God has known and purposed from the beginning that it must be so.
it does not tell us "why" it only says yes it happened.

so no, you have not even tried to give an answer. you are just upset and refusing to address the issue, because, as you complain about in your OP, instead of focusing on the things of God you are thinking your own vanity and believing this is a conversation about you and me instead of a conversation about Christ.

so i will ask again.
why is there no temple in Jerusalem anymore? why is this God's purpose?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Yet we have an intercessor, a High Priest if you will. It is ONLY through Yeshua that we may enter into HaShem. So that fits well with no change to the law.
need i really remind you that boasts of knowledge of the Law that Jesus is not a Levite???

Hebrews 7:12​
For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Yet we have an intercessor, a High Priest if you will. It is ONLY through Yeshua that we may enter into HaShem. So that fits well with no change to the law. After all If Yeshua told us not one jot or title will be removed. When we try to change that, we place what ever passage we wish to use in direct conflict with the Words of Yeshua.
Actually, everything changed at the cross. A new covenant was ushered in. The heavens were made new as the blood of Jesus cleansed it of the sin that occurred there. And the earth is becoming new. The new Jerusalem...the church did come down in the sense that it is a new creation of Jesus. We gained access to the spiritual realm as the Spirit of God is poured out. 2 Corinthians 5:17...new creations mirroring Christ...the firstborn of many brethren.
Hebrews 4...we have access by Christ into the very throne room of God. What was once depicted in the temple has become our reality, as we have become the dwelling place of God.

As such, we are no longer under the old covenant and under the stipulations of the law. We are under a new covenant in which the law is not stipulated for us...but grace. It is an exceedingly better covenant whereby we don't interact with God on the basis of the law, but on the basis of Jesus fulfillment of the law on our behalf.

The first covenant was unsuccessful in securing salvation. The second covenant cannot fail to do so. So why insist upon a failed covenant instead of receiving one that cannot fail?
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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As I said, it seems there are some with a vary limited understand of many things on here. When one wishes to use scripture, they must keep every passage in line with the whole of scripture. When we try to make a point that isn't there, we run the risk of making ourself a higher authority than the creator, and law giver. So lets take a look at all the pointless drible that seems to make some feel the way they do.
To start with, lets take a look at this New covenant.

Jer 31:31¶Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Also see Heb. 8:8-10,
We find that what we are looking at is the Law. One may understand this to be the whole of Torah, and that is the genral ruel followed. However, as it seems that the Law is what was written by HaShem, we can conclued it seeps of that things written by HaShem in the first place. That being the 10 commandments, or 10 utterances. As for any that have studied the Torah will attest, the Temple services are laws that apply to the Temple services only. So to try and place in the same category as the Laws should help us in both our conduct with both HaShem and man is a bit misleading.
I know that in many churches they teach that the law is no longer written on tablets of stone, rather on the tablets of our hearts and minds.
In fact if one was to back this understanding with scripture, I would point to the following.

Jer 7:22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Don't get me wrong I have seen the above used to try and say that Yeshua's sacrifice was pointless. A teaching that holds no bases in any part of the Word. However if as we see HaShem didn't command the offerings, why is it in the Torah saying He did? Hustan we have a problem. The truth is what it is, and we can't change that. So when we look at the Torah we must keep in mind that the people had them in mind. It was something pasted down from the time of Adam. It was so ingrained in their minds, that like many today, anything out of what they think they know is sin.
HaShem never wanted sacrifices, He has always wanted us to know Him, and to obey Him. I am not trying to belittle the Temple services in any way. Although one may think I am, or that I wish to belittle the Hebrew people. Not so. However as has been pointed out, Abraham was called HaShem's friend, his obedience was counted as righteousness,

Gen 15:6¶And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

So this doesn't say it was obedience, yet when placed in context with the following, it does show that obedience comes with faith, and is a part of salvation.

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Jhn 14:15¶If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
As for it being a part of salvation,
Mat 19:17¶And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Hold on buckwheat, that is talking of love not the Law. Ok lets move on and see where it leads.
2Jo 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37¶ Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Here we once more see that the Law, and the prophets are inter twined. just as we have seen in Mat.5:17. It gets better, so hang on.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Ever wanted to make Satan mad.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev 14:12¶Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 22:14¶Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Ohoh Lucy you got some splaning to do. Now i know I may the only one on this thread to see it, yet it is hard to say that obeisance isn't a part of Salvation, is a bit hard to show under the given scripture. Yet in the end, what we find is in line with mat.5:17-18 in that nothing has changed. So maybe, just maybe it our understand that needs to change. We know we can't change the Word, and that as a whole the Word doesn't contradict it's self. So would time be best spent learning how one passage that is used to say the Law has been removed, destroyed, or abolished, fits with them that say it hasn't been. We can't have it both ways my friends. We simply must find the truth, rather than wast time going over the same tired teachings that have been seen here.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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need i really remind you that boasts of knowledge of the Law that Jesus is not a Levite???

Hebrews 7:12​
For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
Are you real sure of this? Luke seems to indicate that Yeshua is in the blood line of Aaron.


Luk 1:5There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
Luk 1:8¶And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course,
Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

The idea that they are cousin leaves the reader with the understanding that they were both from the same blood line. So that being as it is, would also mean that Yeshua was for the line Aaron. Once more up holding the teachings of Yeshua as found in Mat. 5:17-18.

So now let me ask you a direct question, I would love for you to explain how it is that Mat.5:17-18 has removed the law. Please stay with only the 2 passages given.
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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I believe his point was that he doesn't need a building to do so...he is already doing so.
I know I never said we needed the Temple to worship, or believe. What I have said, and will keep saying is that the 3rd Temple must be built if prophecy is to be fulfilled.
 

Lafftur

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Apr 18, 2017
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Actually, everything changed at the cross. A new covenant was ushered in. The heavens were made new as the blood of Jesus cleansed it of the sin that occurred there. And the earth is becoming new. The new Jerusalem...the church did come down in the sense that it is a new creation of Jesus. We gained access to the spiritual realm as the Spirit of God is poured out. 2 Corinthians 5:17...new creations mirroring Christ...the firstborn of many brethren.
Hebrews 4...we have access by Christ into the very throne room of God. What was once depicted in the temple has become our reality, as we have become the dwelling place of God.

As such, we are no longer under the old covenant and under the stipulations of the law. We are under a new covenant in which the law is not stipulated for us...but grace. It is an exceedingly better covenant whereby we don't interact with God on the basis of the law, but on the basis of Jesus fulfillment of the law on our behalf.

The first covenant was unsuccessful in securing salvation. The second covenant cannot fail to do so. So why insist upon a failed covenant instead of receiving one that cannot fail?
Regarding the first covenant… Jesus Christ FULFILLED it for whoever will believe and receive HIS HUMAN FULFILLMENT of the Law for us.

His Body is the human fulfillment of obeying the Law; and

His Blood is the human fulfillment of disobeying the Law.

The first covenant is completely fulfilled IN CHRIST ALONE for every believer.

Regarding the Second covenant of Grace, simply requires faith to believe and understand and live by God’s Grace…

knowing we are forgiven, loved and accepted and ushered into a relationship with God - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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So now let me ask you a direct question, I would love for you to explain how it is that Mat.5:17-18 has removed the law. Please stay with only the 2 passages given.
i did not say the Law was removed
i said for the Christian the law has no jurisdiction. Romans 7
i have said this plainly with scriptural reference a dozen times.

but you persist.

so it's clear you're being petty.

and you are not being petty for no reason, but because part of my daialogue makes you very uncomfortable.

which part?
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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That is seems like a cop out to me. As we know the Temple is going to be built, it has to be for prophecy to be fulfilled.
recognizing and believing the scripture is not a "cop out"

Moses smashed the tablets.
did God not know this would happen?
is God ignorant?
is God stupid?
why didn't God make them from something unbreakable?

Do you want me to spell it "Moshe" before you will give an honest response?
you do everything your OP complains about. "you who accuse.. you yourself"
it is the same every time.
so.
do not judge.


be real.

address this.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,840
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That is seems like a cop out to me. As we know the Temple is going to be built, it has to be for prophecy to be fulfilled.
this seems like a cop out to me because the scripture says explicitly that i have died, but you insist i have not.

because you say we are under the Law and God says we are not.

You insist the scripture is wrong,

and you want to change the subject to a hypothetical 3rd temple instead of talking about your open rejection of the plain Word of God.

again, to me? the real cop out is evident.
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Peter said, "it is good for us to be here, let us build three tabernacles..." and was cut off as he was speaking, and Peter made no more mention of the notion, I'd even say that he even abandoned the idea...
and Jesus said, speaking of His body, "...I will raise it up again," and He wasn't speaking of another temple. In fact, scripture says there will be no temple in the kingdom to come. I haven't been keeping up with the details surrounding the discussion of the temple being planned but, if it is indeed built and there will be no temple in the coming Kingdom, then it will be, without a doubt, totally destroyed at Christ's return, the only exception to this is the possibility that the prophecy is speaking of the building of the body of Christ which then could reasonably concluded to be 'completed' at the time of His return.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Regarding the first covenant… Jesus Christ FULFILLED it for whoever will believe and receive HIS HUMAN FULFILLMENT of the Law for us.

His Body is the human fulfillment of obeying the Law; and

His Blood is the human fulfillment of disobeying the Law.

The first covenant is completely fulfilled IN CHRIST ALONE for every believer.

Regarding the Second covenant of Grace, simply requires faith to believe and understand and live by God’s Grace…

knowing we are forgiven, loved and accepted and ushered into a relationship with God - the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
And yet, too simple for some.
 

Cameron143

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I know I never said we needed the Temple to worship, or believe. What I have said, and will keep saying is that the 3rd Temple must be built if prophecy is to be fulfilled.
Why do you believe the temple is a building?
 

Rainrider

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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i did not say the Law was removed
i said for the Christian the law has no jurisdiction. Romans 7
i have said this plainly with scriptural reference a dozen times.

but you persist.

so it's clear you're being petty.

and you are not being petty for no reason, but because part of my daialogue makes you very uncomfortable.

which part?
None of it makes me uncomfortable, it does however make one wonder. As you again say you never said the law was removed, yet your post rea as though you are saying that.Just as you have never answered me on Mat.5:17-18. Even when placed as a direct question you don't. Does that passage scare you?