How can one learn?
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If you need a teacher, prayerfully seek the Spirit of Understanding as you study and meditate on God's Word.
Colossians 1:9
“For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;”
1 Corinthians 2:10
“But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”
Colossians 1:9
“For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;”
1 Corinthians 2:10
“But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”
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Paul it would seem is speaking of a perverted system of Law.
As an example. We are all aware of the 4th commandment, now keep in mind I don't follow this line of thinking. Here we have some that wish to say even starting your car is a sin. Turning on a light, getting a glass of water, making a sandwich, and so. It is true we told not start a fire on Sabbath, so going out and building a fire would be wrong. However, when a person turns on a light, they are not building a fire. (Yes the filament does burn) What we do is nothing more use what is already there, by closing a circuit. So we are not building a fire. As we know back in the day, to build a fire was not easy. They would use flint, or bow. thats a lot of work I can tell you.
One more little detail on that topic. Some would say if you are walking and find a stick has fallen in the path, you can't move it. However removing the stick is the right thing to do. You may save someone from harming themselves by tripping over it. I do hope this helps you understand what I am saying.
As an example. We are all aware of the 4th commandment, now keep in mind I don't follow this line of thinking. Here we have some that wish to say even starting your car is a sin. Turning on a light, getting a glass of water, making a sandwich, and so. It is true we told not start a fire on Sabbath, so going out and building a fire would be wrong. However, when a person turns on a light, they are not building a fire. (Yes the filament does burn) What we do is nothing more use what is already there, by closing a circuit. So we are not building a fire. As we know back in the day, to build a fire was not easy. They would use flint, or bow. thats a lot of work I can tell you.
One more little detail on that topic. Some would say if you are walking and find a stick has fallen in the path, you can't move it. However removing the stick is the right thing to do. You may save someone from harming themselves by tripping over it. I do hope this helps you understand what I am saying.
The Greek word "under" means "under the jurisdiction of".
After Paul says "sin will not master you because you are not under Law" (Ro 6:14), he describes the life of a Jew "under Law", saying, "our sinful passions, aroused by the Law" (Ro 7:5), and be cites "Do not covet" (so we know "the Law", which they are "not under", which arouses the sinful passions--ie, "Sin" "mastering" them--refers to the Torah) as an example of a "Law" that aroused his sinful passions (but never cites rabbinic laws).
Another instance of import would be Galatians 2, but let's deal with Ro 6 and 7 for now.
After Paul says "sin will not master you because you are not under Law" (Ro 6:14), he describes the life of a Jew "under Law", saying, "our sinful passions, aroused by the Law" (Ro 7:5), and be cites "Do not covet" (so we know "the Law", which they are "not under", which arouses the sinful passions--ie, "Sin" "mastering" them--refers to the Torah) as an example of a "Law" that aroused his sinful passions (but never cites rabbinic laws).
Another instance of import would be Galatians 2, but let's deal with Ro 6 and 7 for now.
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I did not have a problem.. That's why i replied to your opening post with the reasons why i would walk away from someone i was engaged with in a discussion on God and His will..
So now this response does not bring up any additional questions from you.. So there is nothing here now for me to respond to..
So if you do have a specific question to ask about God and His will, i probably will respond if i feel i have an answer..
So now this response does not bring up any additional questions from you.. So there is nothing here now for me to respond to..
So if you do have a specific question to ask about God and His will, i probably will respond if i feel i have an answer..
Thread Title
How can one learn?
I say --you can't properly gain true knowledge of scripture by taking the scripture and posting a couple of verses out of the full context of what the scripture is about -------
Scripture will always answer scripture if you keep the Scripture in context ------
If you take the TEXT out of CONtext ---your left with a CON -------
You have taken 2 verses of scripture out of there context and want a simple answer to the 2 verses ------
When in fact understanding the Spiritual meaning of these 2 verses need research of what the Ancient and Koine Greek words for --destroy and fulfil mean here in this scripture ------
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
This word destroy needs to be looked up in the Ancient and Koine Greek to get understanding of it in the context of this scripture -----now there are to words for DESTROY in the Greek --and 2 word for Fulfil
Ancient Greek for Destroy ---Ollumi
(óllūmi) I destroy, make an end of. I lose. (middle, passive, and perfect) to perish, come to an end.
Verb[edit]
ὄλλῡμῐ • (óllūmi)
New Testament was written in Koine Greek - ----
Koine Greek word for Destroy is ------
Strong's Concordance
kataluó: to destroy, overthrow
Usage: (lit: I loosen thoroughly), (a) trans: I break up, overthrow, destroy, both lit. and met., (b) I unyoke, unharness a carriage horse or pack animal; hence: I put up,
metaphorically, to overthrow, i. e. to render vain, to deprive of success, to bring to naught:
deprive of force, annul, abrogate, discard: τόν νόμον, Matthew 5:17
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To fulfil -----meaning
Ancient Greek
Telos
an end, fulfilment, completion, goal
Telos is the ancient Greek term for an end, fulfilment, completion, goal or aim;
Telos
tel'-os
Noun Neuter
NAS Word Usage - Total: 41
Koine Greek word for Fulfill
Strong's Concordance
pléroó: to make full, to complete
Definition: to make full, to complete
Usage: I fill, fulfill, complete.
universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17;
I say ---------Research and asking the Holy Spirit for Guidance in receiving the Spiritual Truth is needed to get at the True Spiritual meaning behind the words in Scripture ----The Bible is a Spiritual Book for Spiritual People -------
That is how I see ------
How can one learn?
How can one learn?
I say --you can't properly gain true knowledge of scripture by taking the scripture and posting a couple of verses out of the full context of what the scripture is about -------
Scripture will always answer scripture if you keep the Scripture in context ------
If you take the TEXT out of CONtext ---your left with a CON -------
You have taken 2 verses of scripture out of there context and want a simple answer to the 2 verses ------
When in fact understanding the Spiritual meaning of these 2 verses need research of what the Ancient and Koine Greek words for --destroy and fulfil mean here in this scripture ------
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
This word destroy needs to be looked up in the Ancient and Koine Greek to get understanding of it in the context of this scripture -----now there are to words for DESTROY in the Greek --and 2 word for Fulfil
Ancient Greek for Destroy ---Ollumi
(óllūmi) I destroy, make an end of. I lose. (middle, passive, and perfect) to perish, come to an end.
Verb[edit]
ὄλλῡμῐ • (óllūmi)
- I destroy, make an end of
- I lose
- (middle, passive, and perfect) to perish, come to an end
- (middle, passive, and perfect) to be ruined, undone
New Testament was written in Koine Greek - ----
Koine Greek word for Destroy is ------
Strong's Concordance
kataluó: to destroy, overthrow
Usage: (lit: I loosen thoroughly), (a) trans: I break up, overthrow, destroy, both lit. and met., (b) I unyoke, unharness a carriage horse or pack animal; hence: I put up,
metaphorically, to overthrow, i. e. to render vain, to deprive of success, to bring to naught:
deprive of force, annul, abrogate, discard: τόν νόμον, Matthew 5:17
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To fulfil -----meaning
Ancient Greek
Telos
an end, fulfilment, completion, goal
Telos is the ancient Greek term for an end, fulfilment, completion, goal or aim;
Telos
tel'-os
Noun Neuter
NAS Word Usage - Total: 41
- end
- termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
- the end
- the last in any succession or series
- eternal
- that by which a thing is finished, its close, issue
- the end to which all things relate, the aim, purpose
- toll, custom (i.e. indirect tax on goods)
Koine Greek word for Fulfill
Strong's Concordance
pléroó: to make full, to complete
Definition: to make full, to complete
Usage: I fill, fulfill, complete.
universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i. e. "to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment": Matthew 5:17;
I say ---------Research and asking the Holy Spirit for Guidance in receiving the Spiritual Truth is needed to get at the True Spiritual meaning behind the words in Scripture ----The Bible is a Spiritual Book for Spiritual People -------
That is how I see ------
How can one learn?
lol as long as i don't quote the entire Bible to you from cover to cover, you can always accuse me of having left something out.
so that is not a useful path of discussion.
what i am saying is that they key to understanding our position as Christians relative to the Law is recognizing how we are saved:
we are saved by, through faith, becoming identified with Him, thereby being found in Him.
He died, therefore we have died.
because we have died, the Law has zero jurisdiction over us - we are completely free from obligation to it.
He also fulfilled the Law, completely - so we being found in Him also have that righteousness - His righteousness - ascribed to us.
so for us, it simply doesn't matter in a practical sense as far as our daily lives whether the Law is completely passed away yet or not, because the Law does not apply to us.
to. summarize briefly:
so that is not a useful path of discussion.
what i am saying is that they key to understanding our position as Christians relative to the Law is recognizing how we are saved:
we are saved by, through faith, becoming identified with Him, thereby being found in Him.
He died, therefore we have died.
because we have died, the Law has zero jurisdiction over us - we are completely free from obligation to it.
He also fulfilled the Law, completely - so we being found in Him also have that righteousness - His righteousness - ascribed to us.
so for us, it simply doesn't matter in a practical sense as far as our daily lives whether the Law is completely passed away yet or not, because the Law does not apply to us.
to. summarize briefly:
- we have died, so we are completely free from the Law
- He came to fulfill the Law, and He did not fail, so if we are in Him, we lack nothing with regard to the righteousness found in the Law
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Thank you, however even after doing a word study, one may still miss understand how it all fits. As for the language used to write the N.T. the oldest available text is mostly in Hebrew. The Dead Sea Scrolls hold some of the N.T. in them. True they are mostly from the O.T., yet were written around the time of Yeshua. As Luck made clear in the opening of the Book with his name, he was writing it so that Theophilus would know what he was told was the truth. Now I know there is still on going debate over this, in fact there is more open debate over Luke.
One thing that we must all agree on is that we really have no idea who this Theophilus was. Some say he was Greek, some say Hebrew. This is where one must use what we do know to work it out. So here we are, looking for a way to expand our understanding, and explore different teachings.
One may learn by the method you placed before us, yet still miss something. Also, one may spend a life time in study of Biblical Law, and have vast knowledge on it. Where another may do the same with another topic. Now both know their topics well, and can see something the other doesn't. When they come together they both learn.
So in following sound Biblical teachings, are we not to test all things? 1Thes. 5:21. It is hard to test the things we think we know if we only test by what we think we know.
One thing that we must all agree on is that we really have no idea who this Theophilus was. Some say he was Greek, some say Hebrew. This is where one must use what we do know to work it out. So here we are, looking for a way to expand our understanding, and explore different teachings.
One may learn by the method you placed before us, yet still miss something. Also, one may spend a life time in study of Biblical Law, and have vast knowledge on it. Where another may do the same with another topic. Now both know their topics well, and can see something the other doesn't. When they come together they both learn.
So in following sound Biblical teachings, are we not to test all things? 1Thes. 5:21. It is hard to test the things we think we know if we only test by what we think we know.
There's no uncertainty as to what Paul means by "Law".
When he argues they're not to serve in oldness of the letter but newness of the spirit, he says, "do you not hear the Law?" and cites the prohibition on adultery.
He also affirms the Law is binding on a man as long as he lives--if you take his words as referring to "Rabbinic Law", you have Paul affirming the disobedience which Jesus condemned (Mt 15)!
Lol
Makes no sense.
You really need to ask God to make these things clear for you, because He answers prayer.
When he argues they're not to serve in oldness of the letter but newness of the spirit, he says, "do you not hear the Law?" and cites the prohibition on adultery.
He also affirms the Law is binding on a man as long as he lives--if you take his words as referring to "Rabbinic Law", you have Paul affirming the disobedience which Jesus condemned (Mt 15)!
Lol
Makes no sense.
You really need to ask God to make these things clear for you, because He answers prayer.
I Do hope you don't end up running off. I have enjoyed our discussion and wish to keep going. At some point I am hoping to get to prophecy, a topic not many are willing to undertake. I say this as I know people do wish to only see things one way, and many won't even undertake a topic that can lead to an extended conversation.
My thoughts on Rom.6:14
As you know we simply don't see the phrase under the law in the same manner. I once see it as being free from the law, and it holding no authority over me. As I said in the last post, I do think Paul was speaking not of Biblical law, and here's why.
Rom. 5:13 tells us sin is not counted against us if there is no law, John tells us basically the same thing in 1John 3:4. Then if we look at Rev. 14:12. Here we find that the saints keep the commandments of Yahovah, and the faith of Yeshua.
Now IF the law holds not athority over us, why would we find that the ones called saints keep them?
Rom.. 7:5
If we back up to to 7:1 and read from there we find Paul is speaking of being free from the at death. Now I know that some say when we are born of the spirit we become dead in Yeshua, yet as the above points out so long as we are a living breathing person, the law is still valid, and does it's work in our heart, mind and spirit. Paul even gives us the example of a married women. She is bond by law to her husband until he dyes. After that she is free. So death is what frees us from the law. I am talking about teh kind of death that leads others to your funeral.
I do wish point out one thing here, after all we are useing Paul, and should be aware of the warning Peter gave us. 2Peter 3:16 tells us that some of Paul writes is hard to understand, so when we find ourselves at odds over Paul's writings it is wise to seek the true context. Again not always an easy thing.
Again I wish to say thank you, It may not seem like it on your end, however, You have chalanged me, and in so doing have forced me to really look at what I think I know.
The reason you see me use the phrase think we know, is that no matter what we may think, there is still the question, Do I really know? At lest for it remains. That is what drives me to seek the truth, and challenge my own understanding.
My thoughts on Rom.6:14
As you know we simply don't see the phrase under the law in the same manner. I once see it as being free from the law, and it holding no authority over me. As I said in the last post, I do think Paul was speaking not of Biblical law, and here's why.
Rom. 5:13 tells us sin is not counted against us if there is no law, John tells us basically the same thing in 1John 3:4. Then if we look at Rev. 14:12. Here we find that the saints keep the commandments of Yahovah, and the faith of Yeshua.
Now IF the law holds not athority over us, why would we find that the ones called saints keep them?
Rom.. 7:5
If we back up to to 7:1 and read from there we find Paul is speaking of being free from the at death. Now I know that some say when we are born of the spirit we become dead in Yeshua, yet as the above points out so long as we are a living breathing person, the law is still valid, and does it's work in our heart, mind and spirit. Paul even gives us the example of a married women. She is bond by law to her husband until he dyes. After that she is free. So death is what frees us from the law. I am talking about teh kind of death that leads others to your funeral.
I do wish point out one thing here, after all we are useing Paul, and should be aware of the warning Peter gave us. 2Peter 3:16 tells us that some of Paul writes is hard to understand, so when we find ourselves at odds over Paul's writings it is wise to seek the true context. Again not always an easy thing.
Again I wish to say thank you, It may not seem like it on your end, however, You have chalanged me, and in so doing have forced me to really look at what I think I know.
The reason you see me use the phrase think we know, is that no matter what we may think, there is still the question, Do I really know? At lest for it remains. That is what drives me to seek the truth, and challenge my own understanding.
Already answered this objection in my opening post : the New Covenant says He writes His Laws on our hearts and minds, such that the Gentile believers, who do not knowing the Law, are deemed "doers of the Law". Not an issue.
Speaking from personal experience, you would whittle your time waiting to know truth a lot by praying.
Speaking from personal experience, you would whittle your time waiting to know truth a lot by praying.
I agree. It is nice to talk with someone that really knows the Biblical definition of the New Covenant. As it points to the heart of the matter. If the law was removed, and held on perpuse in our lives, why wirte it in our hearts and mins? I know that was a question you have already answered. LOL
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This is called a non sequitur. Sin existed before the Law, sin existed during the Law, and sin also exists under the New Covenant. And the reason humans sin is because of the indwelling sin nature ("the flesh") inherited from Adam (Rom 5:12). The Law had many aspects, not just showing us that the whole world is guilty before God, therefore the Law would drive us to Christ. But people seem to ignore the whole picture.
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