How do Arminians deal with this passage?

[Zmouth]

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This verse should probably understood in regards to this:
2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

That is why people think darkness is the absence of light, because their 'mind' has been blinded because they cannot hear that darkness is not the absence of light but rather the presence of the invisible light made in the image the eternal God, which no man has seen nor can see.

What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: Matt 10:27

 

[Depleted]

I had commented in another thread that most of us don't fit well into the political and doctrinal boxes that others like to put us in.

IMO, Arminianism falls off one side of the horse be elevating man's free will to the point of almost nullifying God's sovereignty whereas Calvinism falls off the other side by virtually eliminating man's free will. When taking the whole counsel of God's word into consideration I think it's clear that both the ideas of predestination and free will are taught so somewhere in the middle the two must balance each other.

Actually, I used that word on purpose. Everyone cookie-cutters "Calvinists" into one particular shape, and that shape only, (as you just did), so I thought I'd flip-side it, and brand "everyone else" as "Arminian." And part of that was humor, because although everybody "knows" exactly what every single Calvinist "believes," yet most don't even know the other word is "Arminian."

The truth is, although both words work in a conversation, neither are accurate. Most Calvinists have never studied Calvin. Most Arminians have never studied Arminius. (I've never studied either. Seems boring. lol)

If folks on this site can get just that much, it's a good start.

Now, as for Calvinist "virtually eliminating free will," kinda yes, and kinda no. Yes, it is true I do not believe in free will. I would eliminate the phrase if at all possible. But, not because I'm anti will, or don't think will is involved in any of this. We have will. We have always had will. If we did not have will, than it would truly be unfair of God to condemn us for our sins. But will is not free. Will is directly connected to our nature.

Just like a starving lion in a field of wheat would starve to death, not because there was nothing to eat, since cats are omnivores, but because the nature of the lion only seeks meat. He has the will to live. He's not caged in the field, just weak in it. But it never dawns on him to eat wheat.

Our nature was sin nature. Sure, we could have not sinned, but it never dawned on us to not sin, because we were living in a sin nature. And we chose to sin, and sin freely, knowing what we were doing was wrong. I absolutely knew I was dishonoring Mom by going where she told me not to go. I absolutely knew not writing a note on that car I dinked in the parking lot was wrong. We know what we're doing is wrong, therefore we deserve the punishment. But the will is connected to our nature, and our nature would not see God, until...

he unblinded us!

Because we never unblinded ourselves by choice or skill. We loved the darkness, until his light shined. He is the difference maker. He is sovereign!

 

[Depleted]

Indeed!

You have not chosen me; but I have chosen you. and Rv 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
KJV
must be simultaneously true; as must " I would that none should perish".

If God desires something that isn't going to happen; the only sensible explanation is that His desire is precluded by something He desires more.

God desires love more than He desires that none should perish; and love requires freewill.

Please excuse duplicate post. Edit timed out.

Leans to far in "God can't help it, so he had to choose" for me.

 

[Depleted]

Thanks for the def.... I had heard the term before, but didn't know what it referred to. I tend to avoid "clarification labels" for followers of Jesus.

Except "Texan." lol

I really didn't mind either label, (and I've been both.) What I mind is the assumption just because of the label that we follow that person. People tend to blame me for some of the bozo moves Calvin did. That's like if someone chose to be called a Davidian because they really liked King David, then obviously something is wrong with that person because he/she thinks killing a friend to get his wife is a good idea. Meanwhile, what the "Davidian" really liked about David was how he stuck so close with God himself. Well, kind of like that, because at least that person read about King David. lol

 

[Depleted]

Well said. This represents my view as well.

I'd advice against agreeing with him, since he tends to pick and choose parts of the Bible. Right before that passage was something about Greeks in the crowd wanting to meet Jesus. Nothing says they got to meet him, but what Jesus said right before this, (that made John explain what was happening), was a direct response to if Jesus would talk to the Greeks too. If nothing else, that says there were more than Jews in this crowd and Jesus knew it. The Greeks were still there. And he was talking to them too.

And if Jesus was so into not paying attention to Gentiles, why did he spend time giving the gospel to a Samaritan adulteress and then her whole village? He could have done what the Pharisees and most Jews did -- take the long way!

Frankly, I have Neh6 on ignore for spouting anything but the gospel, so I won't be recommending agreeing with him, unless the Lord unblinds him too.

 

[Depleted]

Arminians -- people who tend to believe in free will and we chose God.

Not quite:

Arminians -- people who tend to believe in free will to the point of excluding God's sovereignty.

Like this?

That's right. The willful sin of Hebrews 10:26-31 is the sin that results from a rejection of Christ, a.k.a. unbelief. It's the sin that you commit after your struggle with sin is over and you have gone back to the world willingly. And in the case of Hebrews 10 he is talking about sanctified believers going back to the sin of the world in unbelief and becoming subject to the wrath of God in damnation.

 

[Depleted]

we talking about how we believe that loving God that publicly say do not want any perish, Pre elect to save few and deliberately let the most burn in hell

I do not believe Loving God doing such thing. It is they free Will that bring them to hell.

Okay, so you handle those verses by refusing that God elects. Considering "elect" is woven throughout the Bible, at least I get where you're coming from. You're either not quite realizing who God is in his fullness, (which happens to all of us when we're first saved, and probably to lesser extent through the rest of our lives), or out right rejecting the God in the Bible for one you can handle.

At least I get where you're coming from now. I wouldn't trust being taught by you, but at least I understand. Thank you.

 

[Depleted]

This verse should probably understood in regards to this:

2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

At least that shows what John was saying wasn't a fluke. Thanks.

 

[pottersclay]

Perception, perception, perception, I don't see God hardening any heart nor blinding any soul. He is good and withholds nothing that is good to be given.
So why do the scriptures portray such a thing? It is the testamony of his work that is rejected. Ignorance of man, pride of life that rejects God and blinds their eyes and hardens the heart. Those that don't or have not known the will of the Father cannot fathom that the spot light is on Christ and not them.
Those who don't want to give up their life or way of thinking, repent from their ways and evil doing but want to include God in their lives.
The very first thing about excepting the salvation that God has provided and offers anyone is that we agree that we are in need of a savior. That we are wicked and dead.
Why do the heathen rage because they reject the out pouring of Gods love as a solution to their troubled lives.
What vain thing do they imagine.....themselves.

 

[Depleted]

Perception, perception, perception, I don't see God hardening any heart nor blinding any soul. He is good and withholds nothing that is good to be given.
So why do the scriptures portray such a thing? It is the testamony of his work that is rejected. Ignorance of man, pride of life that rejects God and blinds their eyes and hardens the heart. Those that don't or have not known the will of the Father cannot fathom that the spot light is on Christ and not them.
Those who don't want to give up their life or way of thinking, repent from their ways and evil doing but want to include God in their lives.
The very first thing about excepting the salvation that God has provided and offers anyone is that we agree that we are in need of a savior. That we are wicked and dead.
Why do the heathen rage because they reject the out pouring of Gods love as a solution to their troubled lives.
What vain thing do they imagine.....themselves.

If I told you all stop signs are red, would you think, "that's just how you perceive it," or would you believe what I said? Read those verses again, because God's word is clear. He purposely hid the truth from some. He purposely left them blind and hardened their hearts, because he did not want them to turn to him! HE did that from his omnipotence, omniscience, and complete sovereignty. You cannot unperceive what God's word plainly see because it's uncomfortable. Well, you can, but it doesn't change what God said clearly. And it doesn't make your perception true.

 

[Test_F_i_2_Luv]

I'm not into labels unless it's the only way to help a person understand a discussion about a particular subject.

I'm definitely NOT Calvinist, but when I heard John McArthur describe Arminianism I noted that I'm definitely not that either, lol.

Even if one declares s/he is a Calvinist, there is then the question of how many points s/he agrees with.

5 Point, 4 point, 3 point, 2 point...and so on...

Heck, I've even heard of 4 1/2 point Calvinists.


I'm just waiting for the day when, after all the threads that get started about Calvinism vs Arminianism, we'll finally have the 2 sides come to an agreement that can be presented to the world.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Frankly, I have Neh6 on ignore for spouting anything but the gospel, so I won't be recommending agreeing with him, unless the Lord unblinds him too.

Here's another example of wilful blindness. Just like those unbelieving Jews. Very sad.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I'm just waiting for the day when, after all the threads that get started about Calvinism vs Arminianism, we'll finally have the 2 sides come to an agreement that can be presented to the world.

Wishful thinking. When people cling to the doctrines of men above the Word of God, there is no hope of ever seeing a change in their beliefs. This is illustrated in the attitudes of the scribes, Pharisees, and lawyers, who honored the traditions of men above the Word of God, and were soundly rebuked for it.

 

[pottersclay]

If I told you all stop signs are red, would you think, "that's just how you perceive it," or would you believe what I said? Read those verses again, because God's word is clear. He purposely hid the truth from some. He purposely left them blind and hardened their hearts, because he did not want them to turn to him! HE did that from his omnipotence, omniscience, and complete sovereignty. You cannot unperceive what God's word plainly see because it's uncomfortable. Well, you can, but it doesn't change what God said clearly. And it doesn't make your perception true.

Lynn, don't you think that Israel would be the prime example of what your describing? They have broken every commandment, rejected the promised one then killed him. Yet God will save them.
Without hope there is no glory. If I understand what you perceive you believe that some have no hope. That God has chosen some to crash and burn from birth. (Sorry having trouble with font size.). That sounds more like a deception than a revelation.
Paul says he saves to the very end. The law is what condemns us and gives us the wage of sin which is death. How can one be judged fairly by a just God but had no opportunity to be saved ? What would be just in giving one everlasting torment if they were never to receive the truth that could set them free? Are you saying their are soul less bastards out there who God created without his image that we are not aware of? who's life is less meaningful than a sparrows? The purpose of this is for?????? His good pleasure?
Excuse me sis but I find this so very hard to believe. What I find even more than this is that it causes a great stumbling block for those who do believe this.
This seems right in line with "can God make a rock so big and heavy that he cannot pick it up". Answer why would he?
In retrospect let's just say that the cross is for everyone but a choice few whom God had chosen to keep the fires burning.

 

[PHart]

Like this?

Do you believe God's sovereignty prevents you from going back to the world in unbelief?

 

[Locutus]

0.25 point Calvinist here...

 

[SovereignGrace]

Like this?

Phart still stinks.

 

[Depleted]

Lynn, don't you think that Israel would be the prime example of what your describing? They have broken every commandment, rejected the promised one then killed him. Yet God will save them.
Without hope there is no glory. If I understand what you perceive you believe that some have no hope. That God has chosen some to crash and burn from birth. (Sorry having trouble with font size.). That sounds more like a deception than a revelation.
Paul says he saves to the very end. The law is what condemns us and gives us the wage of sin which is death. How can one be judged fairly by a just God but had no opportunity to be saved ? What would be just in giving one everlasting torment if they were never to receive the truth that could set them free? Are you saying their are soul less bastards out there who God created without his image that we are not aware of? who's life is less meaningful than a sparrows? The purpose of this is for?????? His good pleasure?
Excuse me sis but I find this so very hard to believe. What I find even more than this is that it causes a great stumbling block for those who do believe this.
This seems right in line with "can God make a rock so big and heavy that he cannot pick it up". Answer why would he?
In retrospect let's just say that the cross is for everyone but a choice few whom God had chosen to keep the fires burning.

Then keep reading Romans until you believe just that, because that is the God we serve. Particularly take note of Romans 9. (Israel is covered early on in the book.) Yes! Really! There is NO hope for some. Jesus said it, (John 3:19-20), John said it, (The verses in OP), Paul said it. It doesn't get any plainer. There is NO HOPE for some -- for most!

It's the information given loud and clear. The thing missing is God never told us who has no hope, and he told us to love everyone, so we can hope for people as long as we live. BUT when we died, assuming we are saved, we then find out who God gave his salvation to. It's not everybody, because he said all along it's not everybody. Esau he hated!

I'll give you this much. It took me years to deal with the God who wanted nations whipped out in the OT and who mass-slaughtered his own nation's people. But that's not God's problem. He is who he is, and he is a loving, righteous, long-suffering, merciful God. That was my problem. I had one of two choices at that point -- accept who he is or don't. No choice in changing who he is, (which is a good thing. lol)

Same deal you have now. Either take God at his own words or don't. But either way you can't change this. God has chosen to not save all, and he takes it to the point of blinding some and hardening their hearts because otherwise they might believe in him. That's what those verses said. There is no other perception!

(BTW, the answer to God making a rock too big is, "God can do nothing apart from his nature." Not to turn it around into another question.)

 

[Depleted]

Do you believe God's sovereignty prevents you from going back to the world in unbelief?

Actually, I know God saved me because I tried to go back to unbelief (more than once), and can't. God is too sovereign to unsovereign his sovereignity. (Try saying that ten times fast. lol) He already saved me, so he can't/won't unsave me.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I had commented in another thread that most of us don't fit well into the political and doctrinal boxes that others like to put us in.

IMO, Arminianism falls off one side of the horse be elevating man's free will to the point of almost nullifying God's sovereignty whereas Calvinism falls off the other side by virtually eliminating man's free will. When taking the whole counsel of God's word into consideration I think it's clear that both the ideas of predestination and free will are taught so somewhere in the middle the two must balance each other.

There are ditches on both sides of a road.