How do Arminians deal with this passage?

[Depleted]

No argument in fact they could have been more useful to the testimony of the church because they were removed from this life by God.


Ha ha...context is important. I'm not a pencil even though I'm in Pennsylvania. You know the way things go around here.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

LOL Must remember, "I'm not a pencil even if I live in Pennsylvania." LOL

 

[Depleted]

I'm not into labels unless it's the only way to help a person understand a discussion about a particular subject.

I'm definitely NOT Calvinist, but when I heard John McArthur describe Arminianism I noted that I'm definitely not that either, lol.

Baptist? lol

(Every time someone says they aren't Calvinist and aren't Arminian, they usually tell me they're baptist. lol)

 

[notuptome]

Actually, the OP is asking because I no longer remember how I dealt with scripture like this.

Sort of like remembering my favorite teacher was my 11th grade social studies teacher, but try as I might, I can't remember his name. No one can help me remember his name, unless they happened to have gone to Joliet West High School in the early 1970s, however many people still believe Man has free will so chooses God, God loves everybody, so tries to save them, and I can ask them how they can believe what I used to believe too, but can't remember how.

I don't expect to change any minds. It's kind of like trying to get how a Democrat thinks. I just like to understand how people think differently than I do on something we both agree is true -- like say.... these verses? Every Christian will believe these verses are true. So how do Arminians believe them to be true?

And the one thing that doesn't give me an answer is to go off verses to say what they believe. Specifically, how do they rectify these verses while still believing they chose God and God wants to save everyone, but can't?

That's easy...how did you choose God? What made the gospel real to you? Why did you respond? Did you have a John 16:7-11 meeting with Christ?

One does not just wake up one day and realize that they are elect and destined to be saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Jackson123]

And thus you are that very special person who didn't do any terrible sins?

Saul helped kill one of the Lord's chosen! (Stephen.) Yet, the Lord saved him and renamed him Paul. Which sin is so terrible that God would harden that person's heart, but not Paul's? And the Pharissees! Do you know who they were? They were the group who saw Israel falling far away from God and his Law, so they're the ones who brought the law back to Israel! By today's standards they are the pious men in front at church every weekend, who spent their week contending for the Bible while the rest of us went about our lives. They were the guys with the "Repent for the end is near" posters at the corner trying to convince everyone back to lawfulness and dignity.

How terrible must the sin be and which are the terribles versus the not-so-bads?

I don't think it's random either, but I won't cut it down to not-so-bads are saved only, especially knowing that we tend to revere Pharisees today, before we realize they are Pharisees.

to my knowledge there is unforgiven sin.
God do not want any body perish. I do not believe God is cruel, God is love

let me repeat my analogy

there are 4 man sleep in a room, they sleep well under the influent of drug. I know the wind go to they direction, AS a loving person why I elect to wake one and left the 3 burn?

that why I do not believe in Pre elect salvation st Agustin version

I believe, when God create Adam, He provide Garden of Eden for him and If he have a son Eden also for them. So in general
Adam and his offspring predestine to reside in a beautiful Garden of Eden, not for hell

because of desobedeance people go to hell. For God so love the world, He purchace our sin and whosoever believe in Him sin.

now up to us to accept the offer or not.

 

[Depleted]

That's easy...how did you choose God? What made the gospel real to you? Why did you respond? Did you have a John 16:7-11 meeting with Christ?

One does not just wake up one day and realize that they are elect and destined to be saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Actually, that's exactly what happened to me, I went to bed unsaved, and woke up saved.

Same thing happened to hubby too, (albeit, he wasn't my hubby at the time, and we didn't know each other back then.)

 

[Nehemiah6]

It has been made clear by quite a few people that Calvinism is a terrible belief system. God can't possibly be choosing who he will save and choosing who he won't save. We have free will, for Pete's sake. But my memories of Arminian-think are fading. So, I ask your help.

Arminians, how do you handle these verses in The Gospel of John?

Joh 12:37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
Joh 12:38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
Joh 12:39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
Joh 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them."
Joh 12:41 Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.
Joh 12:42 Nevertheless, many even of the authorities believed in him, but for fear of the Pharisees they did not confess it, so that they would not be put out of the synagogue;
Joh 12:43 for they loved the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

How could God possibly blind eyes and harden hearts for fear otherwise he'd have to heal them?

I do not identify with Arminians, and certainly not with Calvinists. And the answer to your question is very simple. God sent Messiah Jesus of Nazareth to Israel so that all Israel would believe on Him and be saved.

God even sent John the Baptizer as His forerunner in order to prepare the hearts of all Israel. Christ preached repentance and the Kingdom of God to all Israel. Now all you have to do is go through the Gospels and see how poorly Christ was received by the religious leaders of His time. So you already posted the answer to your question right here: Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him.

Those unbelieving Jews made a CHOICE to not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, even though they had every reason to do so. And when sinners are wilfully blind, and obstinate, and resist the Holy Spirit, God ultimately hardens their hearts. and thus Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled. But this is true for all sinners. Wilful resistance to the Holy Spirit brings judgment upon the sinner. His heart is hardened, and his eyes are blinded. This has nothing to do with the false notion that God chose them for damnation.

SO THE SHORT ANSWER IS THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE BECAUSE AT FIRST THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE.

 

[Depleted]

to my knowledge there is unforgiven sin.
God do not want any body perish. I do not believe God is cruel, God is love

let me repeat my analogy

there are 4 man sleep in a room, they sleep well under the influent of drug. I know the wind go to they direction, AS a loving person why I elect to wake one and left the 3 burn?

that why I do not believe in Pre elect salvation st Agustin version

I believe, when God create Adam, He provide Garden of Eden for him and If he have a son Eden also for them. So in general
Adam and his offspring predestine to reside in a beautiful Garden of Eden, not for hell

because of desobedeance people go to hell. For God so love the world, He purchace our sin and whosoever believe in Him sin.

now up to us to accept the offer or not.

Closer analogy. Four men in the room all dead in their sin. Why did God choose to give new life to one, but not all? Because surely waking them up isn't going to work, since they were dead in their sin.

And that's a real question. Why did Lazarus get resurrection? He wasn't even given a choice. And why aren't our grandparents resurrected? They weren't given a choice either. God is able.

Now what?

Because original verses, God really did blind some. How do you deal with that?

 

[hornetguy]

By the way I do not consider myself Arminian or Calvinist. Just for clarity's sake.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I'm certainly not Arminian... I was born in Texas...

 

[Johnny_B]

The OP is asking the question in the light of Calvinism. The OP is endeavoring to draw a distinction between Calvinism and Arminianism.

John 3:18-21 illustrates that men do indeed choose. Only God know their choice.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Yes men choose to sin because they love it and hat, John 3:18-20 and those thate the light. Those that come to the light do it to show that God accomplished it for them, John 3:21 HCSB "[FONT=&quot]But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God.”[/FONT]

 

[Oncefallen]

I had commented in another thread that most of us don't fit well into the political and doctrinal boxes that others like to put us in.

IMO, Arminianism falls off one side of the horse be elevating man's free will to the point of almost nullifying God's sovereignty whereas Calvinism falls off the other side by virtually eliminating man's free will. When taking the whole counsel of God's word into consideration I think it's clear that both the ideas of predestination and free will are taught so somewhere in the middle the two must balance each other.

 

[MarcR]

I had commented in another thread that most of us don't fit well into the political and doctrinal boxes that others like to put us in.

IMO, Arminianism falls off one side of the horse be elevating man's free will to the point of almost nullifying God's sovereignty whereas Calvinism falls off the other side by virtually eliminating man's free will. When taking the whole counsel of God's word into consideration I think it's clear that both the ideas of predestination and free will are taught so somewhere in the middle the two must balance each other.

Indeed!

You have not chosen me; but I have chosen you. and Rv 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
KJV
must be simultaneously true; as must " I would that none should perish".

If God desires something that isn't going to happen; the only sensible explanation is that His desire is precluded by something He desires more.

God desires love more than He desires that none should perish; and love requires freewill.

Please excuse duplicate post. Edit timed out.

 

[hornetguy]

Armenians -- people who are citizens of Armenia or who still have the heart of that country.

Arminians -- people who tend to believe in free will and we chose God.

Annoying -- that they had to pick such two vastly different words that are spelled so close together that we still get stuck on which is which centuries later. lol

Thanks for the def.... I had heard the term before, but didn't know what it referred to. I tend to avoid "clarification labels" for followers of Jesus.

 

[oyster67]

I do not identify with Arminians, and certainly not with Calvinists. And the answer to your question is very simple. God sent Messiah Jesus of Nazareth to Israel so that all Israel would believe on Him and be saved.

God even sent John the Baptizer as His forerunner in order to prepare the hearts of all Israel. Christ preached repentance and the Kingdom of God to all Israel. Now all you have to do is go through the Gospels and see how poorly Christ was received by the religious leaders of His time. So you already posted the answer to your question right here: Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him.

Those unbelieving Jews made a CHOICE to not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, even though they had every reason to do so. And when sinners are wilfully blind, and obstinate, and resist the Holy Spirit, God ultimately hardens their hearts. and thus Isaiah's prophecy was fulfilled. But this is true for all sinners. Wilful resistance to the Holy Spirit brings judgment upon the sinner. His heart is hardened, and his eyes are blinded. This has nothing to do with the false notion that God chose them for damnation.

SO THE SHORT ANSWER IS THEY COULD NOT BELIEVE BECAUSE AT FIRST THEY WOULD NOT BELIEVE.

Well said. This represents my view as well.

 

[PennEd]

It is not a question of being worthy or of committing a particular sinful act, it is a question of whether one can knowingly and willfully damn their own soul to hell by rejecting Jesus when He reveals Himself to you and knocks on your hearts door:

Hebrews 10
10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I'm glad you recognize the sin Hebrews 10:26 is talking about. Continuing rejection of Jesus Christ, who He is, and what He has done. Or UNBELIEF.

This has to be the most quoted verse on CC. Glad someone got it right. Thanks.

 

[MarcR]

Armenians -- people who are citizens of Armenia or who still have the heart of that country.

Arminians -- people who tend to believe in free will and we chose God.

Annoying -- that they had to pick such two vastly different words that are spelled so close together that we still get stuck on which is which centuries later. lol

Arminians -- people who tend to believe in free will and we chose God.

Not quite:

Arminians -- people who tend to believe in free will to the point of excluding God's sovereignty.

 

[PHart]

I'm glad you recognize the sin Hebrews 10:26 is talking about. Continuing rejection of Jesus Christ, who He is, and what He has done. Or UNBELIEF.

This has to be the most quoted verse on CC. Glad someone got it right. Thanks.

That's right. The willful sin of Hebrews 10:26-31 is the sin that results from a rejection of Christ, a.k.a. unbelief. It's the sin that you commit after your struggle with sin is over and you have gone back to the world willingly. And in the case of Hebrews 10 he is talking about sanctified believers going back to the sin of the world in unbelief and becoming subject to the wrath of God in damnation.

 

[PHart]

Baptist? lol

(Every time someone says they aren't Calvinist and aren't Arminian, they usually tell me they're baptist. lol)

Lol, no, not Baptist. I'm non denominational Full Gospel. That's how I identify myself, not by whether or not I'm Calvinist or Arminian.

 

[oyster67]

That's right. The willful sin of Hebrews 10:26-31 is the sin that results from a rejection of Christ, a.k.a. unbelief. It's the sin that you commit after your struggle with sin is over and you have gone back to the world willingly. And in the case of Hebrews 10 he is talking about sanctified believers going back to the sin of the world in unbelief and becoming subject to the wrath of God in damnation.

Now you just stirred up a hornet's nest. There is a time to walk away, but now is a good time to run

 

[Jackson123]

Closer analogy. Four men in the room all dead in their sin. Why did God choose to give new life to one, but not all? Because surely waking them up isn't going to work, since they were dead in their sin.

And that's a real question. Why did Lazarus get resurrection? He wasn't even given a choice. And why aren't our grandparents resurrected? They weren't given a choice either. God is able.

Now what?

Because original verses, God really did blind some. How do you deal with that?

we talking about how we believe that loving God that publicly say do not want any perish, Pre elect to save few and deliberately let the most burn in hell

I do not believe Loving God doing such thing. It is they free Will that bring them to hell.

 

[Locutus]

This verse should probably understood in regards to this:

2 Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.