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D
I might have taken a faster double take if the word for least esteemed was replaced with one of these others
But heres the thing what JesusIsTheChrist pointed out makes sense though, setting certain to judge matters and least esteemed in the same would be those who could judge things of this life (since the world is they were to judge) also has men set to judge matter they themselves should be able to judge.
But heres the thing what JesusIsTheChrist pointed out makes sense though, setting certain to judge matters and least esteemed in the same would be those who could judge things of this life (since the world is they were to judge) also has men set to judge matter they themselves should be able to judge.
Paul is making a simple observation. The church is claiming to live in humbleness and love, yet rather than practising it between each other they are going to court. He is not suggesting churches should set up courts, but rather both parties should resolve the issue themselves. How it is resolved is up to the people involved, but this is fruit of the failure of forgiveness and love in the fellowship. We are not a legalistic body with rights of authority over each other, but a free community of people giving where there is need. The fruit of knowing things are going wrong is such a dispute, which indicates further investigation and questioning is required, which by ready corinthians is obvious.
I am not sure I would insist that it is a question but the construction of the Greek seems to imply it. There is some disagreement among scholars as to whether this is a question of astonishment of a statement of reproach. It seems to be one in a series of questions posed by Paul challenging their behavior in this particular matter beginning in verse one.
1. "Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?" 2. "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?"
3. "Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
4. "If then you have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church?"
5. "I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren."
6. "But brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?"
The only statement that does not appear as a question is the statement of verse five.
It is also due to the fact that as Meyer points out, if "τοὺς ἐξουθενημένους corresponds best with the whole structure of this animated address" then this should be rendered as a question. But like I said, there is some difference of opinion on this among scholars but whether it is a question or a statement it really does not effect Paul's challenge of this practice.
1. "Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?" 2. "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?"
3. "Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
4. "If then you have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church?"
5. "I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren."
6. "But brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?"
The only statement that does not appear as a question is the statement of verse five.
It is also due to the fact that as Meyer points out, if "τοὺς ἐξουθενημένους corresponds best with the whole structure of this animated address" then this should be rendered as a question. But like I said, there is some difference of opinion on this among scholars but whether it is a question or a statement it really does not effect Paul's challenge of this practice.
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L
Biblical judgment involved more than a man judging another, especially on greater matters like the example of Moses.
Exodus 18:15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
God knows every part of the heart, and things might appear to us to be one way when they are actually not. We shouldn't judge by appearances, (although that is a natural thing.)
1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
Samuel was a Prophet, and still had to be directed by God in judgment of who would be the next king.
2 Chronicles 6:30 Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men:
Exodus 18:15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
God knows every part of the heart, and things might appear to us to be one way when they are actually not. We shouldn't judge by appearances, (although that is a natural thing.)
1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
1 Samuel 16:7 But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.
Samuel was a Prophet, and still had to be directed by God in judgment of who would be the next king.
2 Chronicles 6:30 Then hear thou from heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and render unto every man according unto all his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou only knowest the hearts of the children of men:
One verse that stands out for me in understanding that because of our mindsets, or biases, or theological leanings, we can, and often WILL, read the same verse differently from others, is....
"If you love me, you will obey me."
A legalist might read this as: "If you sorry dogs had even a shred of love for me, you would toe the line, and struggle to do every single thing you have ever heard me say."
While, a Grace Believer might see: "Since you feel so much love for me, you're not going to be able to control your outbursts of trying to please me."
(Both "exaggerated" to show the polar opposites of the ways we can often understand things.)
"If you love me, you will obey me."
A legalist might read this as: "If you sorry dogs had even a shred of love for me, you would toe the line, and struggle to do every single thing you have ever heard me say."
While, a Grace Believer might see: "Since you feel so much love for me, you're not going to be able to control your outbursts of trying to please me."
(Both "exaggerated" to show the polar opposites of the ways we can often understand things.)
L
I think that HE also set in place certain ways that judgment was to be made, so that the flesh would be accountable.
Even the natural man in the world is under those rules.
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Exodus 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Exodus 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:
Exodus 23:3 Neither shalt thou countenance a poor man in his cause.
It's actually amazing that the Pharisees knew these things, and broke them all when they tried Jesus. They really didn't keep the law.
Even the natural man in the world is under those rules.
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Exodus 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
Exodus 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:
Exodus 23:3 Neither shalt thou countenance a poor man in his cause.
It's actually amazing that the Pharisees knew these things, and broke them all when they tried Jesus. They really didn't keep the law.
D
Okay thanks, I already know those in the churches shouldnt go to those outside of the church, however it made just as much sense given Jesus instructions to go to your brother (first) then take two or three brethren with you (of least account) and then tell it to the church (such as those more esteemed).
Wouldnt both agree in Jesus's instruction?
Wouldnt both agree in Jesus's instruction?
J
I hate to sound cynical, but I'd suggest that the reason why you haven't seen this is because many churches are run more like the mafia in which the pastor is the "Don" and the elders are his bodyguards than like a body of believers with Christ as the Head.
Been there. Seen that. Felt like vomiting.
Anyhow, there should be delegated authority within the church and all judgment need not come directly from the pastor. After all, if a pastor truly does his job, then he'll have a congregation full of people who are wise enough to judge amongst brethren...but a lot of people simply don't want to give up their "power".
Been there. Seen that. Felt like vomiting.
Anyhow, there should be delegated authority within the church and all judgment need not come directly from the pastor. After all, if a pastor truly does his job, then he'll have a congregation full of people who are wise enough to judge amongst brethren...but a lot of people simply don't want to give up their "power".
I have been in one church which actively practiced church discipline and while following the order laid out in scripture....every time we as an assembly withdrew fellowship from someone not right resulted in the following.....
1. They got right before the assembly
2. They left out of anger and the Lord gave double back unto us.....
1. They got right before the assembly
2. They left out of anger and the Lord gave double back unto us.....
D
I believe they tried we Jesus though, for example here
John 8:13 The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.
John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
John 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
To try to answer your question, DH, our church operates within a structure of what we merely call, "Small Groups", which are just smaller, tighter knit groupings of the members of the overall body.
Most disputes just seem to get settled at that level. In fact, in four years, I cannot recall one time where anything has ever escalated to the point of being something that came before the whole body.
Most disputes just seem to get settled at that level. In fact, in four years, I cannot recall one time where anything has ever escalated to the point of being something that came before the whole body.