How do you guys do this?

[JesusistheChrist]

"If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church." (I Corinthians 6:4)

The "set them to judge" part reminds me of the following:

Exodus chapter 18

[13] And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.
[14] And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
[15] And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to inquire of God:
[16] When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.
[17] And Moses' father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.
[18] Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.
[19] Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to Godward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
[20] And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
[21] Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
[22] And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.
[23] If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.
[24] So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.
[25] And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.
[26] And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves.

 

[valiant]

Okay, I was always curious bout this and how each church might do this in respects to the least esteemed among themselves (and in matters pertaining to this life).

1 Cr 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

1 Cr 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

Like how are they which are the least esteemed in your church chosen, and set to judge (between the brethren) and in what types of things have you seen such judge between them that you might have witnessed?

Just curious, how does that work?

Paul was being sarcastic. He was pointing out that the behavior of the church under its leadership was such that its leadership were clearly not to be trusted. (I speak this to your shame). The ones who were despised were more likely to be right than the leadership because they did not follow the leadership. His words were only directly applicable (apart from the lesson to be learned from it)
to that church

 

[oldhermit]

Yes I realize this, and so I am asking how folks (at their churches here) set up those that are least esteemed in their churches to judge such things (within them) not from without.

Like how do they practice this (for real)

Perhaps what is confusing is the way this is rendered in the some of the English translations. The word καθίζω just means to appoint but there is nothing wrong with "set up." In other words, those in the Church were appointing or setting up outsiders to judge between them. It does not mean they were bringing these into the Church. Rather they were going out to them.

 

[john832]

Okay, I was always curious bout this and how each church might do this in respects to the least esteemed among themselves (and in matters pertaining to this life).

1 Cr 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

1 Cr 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

Like how are they which are the least esteemed in your church chosen, and set to judge (between the brethren) and in what types of things have you seen such judge between them that you might have witnessed?

Just curious, how does that work?

1Co 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
1Co 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

Paul is speaking sarcastically here. Then he begins to correct them...

1Co 6:6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
1Co 6:7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
1Co 6:8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

 

[Willie-T]

I am not sure what translation you are reading here. You are reading verse four as if it were a statement. Verse four is a question. Paul is asking them why they were doing this. The issue was that those in the Church were taking their brothers to civil court rather than allowing those in the Church to judge these matters for them. Paul was telling them they should not be doing this.

This is one of the first things that crossed my mind. I learned so long ago to NEVER read just one, or even only two, translations. To me this is Spiritual imprisonment and resigned acceptance to the limited interpretations, or even "agendas", of specific (esoterically-focused) translators. I honestly recommend no less than five different translations be read... and I often employ seven or more. And I, periodically switch them around to include some I might not ordinarily choose.

And, secondly, I felt, instantly, that a true understanding of this passage is going to require (No, "INSIST upon") an honest and starkly raw recognition and willing awareness of prejudices we would like to hope we don't harbor. But, we all do. If we cannot evaluate our studies through the lenses of our broken humanity, then we probably have only "read", and not studied.

 

[Willie-T]

Paul was being sarcastic. He was pointing out that the behavior of the church under its leadership was such that its leadership were clearly not to be trusted. (I speak this to your shame). The ones who were despised were more likely to be right than the leadership because they did not follow the leadership. His words were only directly applicable (apart from the lesson to be learned from it)
to that church

This is a point many of us miss. That a large part of the literature from those times employed a world of sarcasm, hyperbole, analogous renderings, and examples of comparing & contrasting that go far beyond what we are used to in modern writings.... not to mention a dozen other techniques that would take way too long to explain.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Those who had no standing in the Church were those judges who were outside the Church. Verse four is a question, to the Corinthian Church. Paul was asking them why they were doing such a shameful thing.

You keep insisting that verse four was a question. Upon what data do you make such a claim?

 

[DesiredHaven]

"If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church." (I Corinthians 6:4)

The "set them to judge" part reminds me of the following:

Exodus chapter 18

[13] And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.
[14] And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
[15] And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to inquire of God:
[16] When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.
[17] And Moses' father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.
[18] Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.
[19] Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to Godward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
[20] And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
[21] Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
[22] And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.
[23] If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.
[24] So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.
[25] And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.
[26] And they judged the people at all seasons: the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves.

Agreed that is a perfect example, thanks

 

[DesiredHaven]

Paul was being sarcastic. He was pointing out that the behavior of the church under its leadership was such that its leadership were clearly not to be trusted. (I speak this to your shame). The ones who were despised were more likely to be right than the leadership because they did not follow the leadership. His words were only directly applicable (apart from the lesson to be learned from it)
to that church

Okay, thanks...

 

[DesiredHaven]

Perhaps what is confusing is the way this is rendered in the some of the English translations. The word καθίζω just means to appoint but there is nothing wrong with "set up." In other words, those in the Church were appointing or setting up outsiders to judge between them. It does not mean they were bringing these into the Church. Rather they were going out to them.

I dont understand this reasoning, Im completely lost here.

 

[Willie-T]

I dont understand this reasoning, Im completely lost here.

Have you read these verses in several other (different) translations?

 

[DesiredHaven]

This is a point many of us miss. That a large part of the literature from those times employed a world of sarcasm, hyperbole, analogous renderings, and examples of comparing & contrasting that go far beyond what we are used to in modern writings.... not to mention a dozen other techniques that would take way too long to explain.

I dont have a problem with what Paul said, I am just somehow reading it different from everyone else.

I thought it was in accord with Jesus words

 

[DesiredHaven]

You keep insisting that verse four was a question. Upon what data do you make such a claim?

I havent a clue either but I hope you at least stick around to cross examine it because its not like I can.

I hadnt a problem with how it was written and wasnt asking about anything other then how other churches put this into pratice, I had thought this was about practical application.

 

[DesiredHaven]

Have you read these verses in several other (different) translations?

Not recently no, I thought it was obvious and not needing to be questioned that those in the church should be gone to and not to those of law

 

[Willie-T]

Here is only ONE other rendering of the same passage......

1 Corinthians 6 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

Settling Disagreements between Christians

6 When one of you has a complaint against another, how dare you go to court to settle the matter in front of wicked people. Why don’t you settle it in front of God’s holy people? 2 Don’t you know that God’s people will judge the world? So if you’re going to judge the world, aren’t you capable of judging insignificant cases? 3 Don’t you know that we will judge angels, not to mention things in this life? 4 When you have cases dealing with this life, why do you allow people whom the church has a low opinion of to be your judges? 5 You should be ashamed of yourselves! Don’t you have at least one wise person who is able to settle disagreements between believers? 6 Instead, one believer goes to court against another believer, and this happens in front of unbelievers.

7 You are already totally defeated because you have lawsuits against each other. Why don’t you accept the fact that you have been wronged? Why don’t you accept that you have been cheated? 8 Instead, you do wrong and cheat, and you do this to other believers.

9 Don’t you know that wicked people won’t inherit God’s kingdom? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals, 10 or thieves, those who are greedy or drunk, who use abusive language, or who rob people will not inherit God’s kingdom. 11 That’s what some of you were! But you have been washed and made holy, and you have received God’s approval in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 

[Willie-T]

Not recently no, I thought it was obvious and not needing to be questioned that those in the church should be gone to and not to those of law

If things were "obvious", everyone would think like me. LOL

 

[DesiredHaven]

Here is only ONE other rendering of the same passage......

1 Corinthians 6 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

Settling Disagreements between Christians

6 When one of you has a complaint against another, how dare you go to court to settle the matter in front of wicked people. Why don’t you settle it in front of God’s holy people? 2 Don’t you know that God’s people will judge the world? So if you’re going to judge the world, aren’t you capable of judging insignificant cases? 3 Don’t you know that we will judge angels, not to mention things in this life? 4 When you have cases dealing with this life, why do you allow people whom the church has a low opinion of to be your judges? 5 You should be ashamed of yourselves! Don’t you have at least one wise person who is able to settle disagreements between believers? 6 Instead, one believer goes to court against another believer, and this happens in front of unbelievers.

7 You are already totally defeated because you have lawsuits against each other. Why don’t you accept the fact that you have been wronged? Why don’t you accept that you have been cheated? 8 Instead, you do wrong and cheat, and you do this to other believers.

9 Don’t you know that wicked people won’t inherit God’s kingdom? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals, 10 or thieves, those who are greedy or drunk, who use abusive language, or who rob people will not inherit God’s kingdom. 11 That’s what some of you were! But you have been washed and made holy, and you have received God’s approval in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Where does this follow Jesus instruction though? How are they meshed in together?

I never heard of this one before

 

[DesiredHaven]

If things were "obvious", everyone would think like me. LOL

Dont flatter yourself lol

 

[Willie-T]

I dont have a problem with what Paul said, I am just somehow reading it different from everyone else.

I thought it was in accord with Jesus words

I have found that in many cases, "IF" could often better be stated, "SINCE". And such is the case in many instances of other words. Sometimes this can help us see statements as questions, or questions as statements.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

I havent a clue either but I hope you at least stick around to cross examine it because its not like I can.

I hadnt a problem with how it was written and wasnt asking about anything other then how other churches put this into pratice, I had thought this was about practical application.

I've always thought the same thing, but here is what Willie-T and oldhermit are apparently talking about:

1 Corinthians 6:4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church?

If you go through the different translations of this passage, then you'll see that it's translated in two completely different ways. One way seems to indicate that Paul was instructing the Corinthians to set up those who are least esteemed in the church to judge disputes between the brethren and the other seems to indicate that Paul was rebuking them for going to the world for judgment in regard to such matters.

P.S.

You need to click on that passage to see the different translations.