How does "GRACE" work in a Believers life?

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Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#21
IMO that verse is better translated (literal translation, actually):

"Do we then render law useless through the faith? May it not be, but we make law stand."​

Which is explained nicely in:

I have become like a Jew to the Jews, in order that I may gain the Jews. To those under the law I became as under the law (although I myself am not under the law) in order that I may gain those under the law. To those without law I became as without law (although I am not without law of God, but subject to law of Christ) in order that I may gain those outside the law. 1 Corinthians 9:20-21

Very good first step...and agreed!
 

Latour

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Jun 11, 2018
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#22
As confusing as all this is...there is a difference between "law" and "THE law."


Romans 14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, (just nomos... no article "the") but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, (Actually just nomos...law) but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Confusion??? Well kind of. In the Greek there is no article "the" preceeding the word for "law" in either verse 14 or verse 15 and this presents a problem. The only thing that takes this away from reality and cohesion with the rest of the bible is the statement that sin continues to be unto death...BECAUSE of the law of God.

My Question to Paul....Where is the article "THE" that distinguishes the law of Moses from (the) law of God? Why is Paul inplying that we are no longer ANY kind of law...just grace when obviously there is no such thing as a covenant of grace.
 
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#23
My Question to Paul....Where is the article "THE" that distinguishes the law of Moses from (the) law of God? Why is Paul inplying that we are no longer ANY kind of law...just grace when obviously there is no such thing as a covenant of grace.
The answer is in verse 16. Who do we obey? The flesh or the holy spirit? We are slaves of whoever we obey.
 

Latour

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#24
The answer is in verse 16. Who do we obey? The flesh or the holy spirit? We are slaves of whoever we obey.
Amen! But what of the idea that we are no longer under law? This is what trips up the greasy grace folks.

There is a subtlety going on here. More than one thing being communicated.
 

Latour

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#25
By believing their salvation is based on, or maintained by, their own performance at being obedient to the will of God..

In fact they do not frustrate grace.. They reject salvation by grace..
This is true. But what do you make of this...

Rom. 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Are they who sin not slaves of sin?
 

Latour

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Jun 11, 2018
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#26
By believing their salvation is based on, or maintained by, their own performance at being obedient to the will of God..

In fact they do not frustrate grace.. They reject salvation by grace..
This is true but for ONE little detail actually. You said our own "performance"...where you should have said...our own "strength"

We will all be judged by our own performance. So then it isn't the performance that is wrong...but what KIND of performance we are taking about. A performance can be either good or bad. But...to walk in our own STRENGTH frustrates the grace of God. Since we are left weak and in slavery to sin.

So here is your statement with the corrections....


By believing their salvation is based on, or maintained in their own strength at being obedient to the will of God..

In fact they do frustrate grace.. They reject salvation by grace..

This is true.
 

Latour

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#27
Unbelievers and the unlearned can't differentiate a human performance based on (according to) the Spirit or the flesh. They cannot perceive spiritual things.

So then this makes no sense to them...

Rom. 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die ( a performance in the power of the flesh): but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. (a performance according to the power of the Spirit which is the grace from God).

Those who make no distinction between these 2 ways of living and walking...will reject grace because they believe nothing can empower them to walk as Jesus. They are either unbelievers or unlearned in the message of grace. Therefore they reject salvation by grace.

Unless they are teacable and exercise some faith in God. :)
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#28
This is true. But what do you make of this...

Rom. 3:31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Are they who sin not slaves of sin?
Salvation by grace through faith means that we believe and affirm the will of God...

In doing so we both uphold the law ( The standards that God has established how muhamns should live what they should and should not do) and we uphold the Way God has made for us to have our failings in regard to living up to the standards of God forgiven./ atoned for..

So Faith is trusting God.. Both in His Standards and in His Way of Salvation..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#29
This is true but for ONE little detail actually. You said our own "performance"...where you should have said...our own "strength"

We will all be judged by our own performance. So then it isn't the performance that is wrong...but what KIND of performance we are taking about. A performance can be either good or bad. But...to walk in our own STRENGTH frustrates the grace of God. Since we are left weak and in slavery to sin.

So here is your statement with the corrections....


By believing their salvation is based on, or maintained in their own strength at being obedient to the will of God..

In fact they do frustrate grace.. They reject salvation by grace..

This is true.
I think both strength and performance are both applicable to the statement.. The word performance would be more understandable to a person not of the faith... But either one would suffice..

As for being judged on our performance in doing the will of God in regard to sin avoidance and doing good works.. Yes we will be judged and we shall receive greater or lesser rewards.. But for those who have Faith in Jesus these rewards will be added onto Salvation... They will not include salvation.. Anyone who believes Jesus and trusts in the Atonement He secured for them will have salvation no matter how poor or weak their performance or strengh has been in their lives..
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#30
Those that are trying to keep the law and be under grace at the same time are Indeed frustrating grace.
Work Is earned.
Grace Is free.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#31
The truth is we are saved by faith alone, and not by works, when we confess Christ, for that is all we can do, but after we receive the Spirit then we have to abstain from sin to be right with God, and do the works of God to have faith active in our life.

And we know many that confess Christ lack, and many hold unto sin and think they are right with God.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Some people try to drag faith alone, and not saved by works, throughout their walk with God, when Paul is saying that is how we are initially saved, but after we receive the Spirit then the responsibility falls on us to do what is right, for the Spirit will not twist our arm to what is right.

They have to understand when Paul is speaking according to the flesh, which none of those works will save us, and when he is speaking according to the Spirit which a Spirit led life will not sin, and a person is justified by works and not faith alone.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

What seals the saints is that they abstain from sin by the Spirit, which if they hate sin, and do not want sin, they can abstain from sin by the Spirit.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But many do not want to abstain from sin, but hold unto sin and think they are right with God, and make excuses that they cannot abstain from sin, and sin daily, and sin does not affect their relationship with God.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity, love in action, is greater than faith, and it is not faith alone, but it is love alone, and everything stems from love.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Paul said he can have all faith as to remove mountains, but without charity he is nothing.

Faith works by love, and without love there is no faith.

Paul said without charity he is nothing, and James said without charity their faith is dead, and John said without charity the love of God does not dwell in them.

Love is greater than faith, and without love their faith does not mean anything.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

We are saved by grace through faith, so if we do not have faith then we do not have grace.

Which means if we do not have love, we do not have faith, we do not have grace.

1Co 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Love is not arrogant, does not belittle, does not put down, does not think they are better than other people, which the Bible says if a person thinks they are something when they are nothing, they deceive themselves, and what makes you to differ from another person.

Love is not selfish, but only goes by their needs, and not their wants, and helps the poor and needy if possible, which we see this a lot that they go by their wants.

Love does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth, which is to hate sin, and abstain from sin by the Spirit.

And again what seals the saints is they depart from iniquity, but many hold unto sin making excuses, and thinking they are right with God.

This is the definition of love, and to not abide by the definition of love Paul gives the saints means to lack love, then faith lacks, and then grace lacks, and love is the fulfilling of the law.

And we are to love everyone, and if we lack loving one person, then faith does not apply in our life, and if we hold unto sin faith does not apply in our life, and if we neglect the poor and needy, and go by our wants faith does not apply in our life.

And we see the lack of love, and holding unto sin among many people.

And I do not want to hear we grow in Christ as if it is an excuse to sin, for it does not take 20 years to understand what is wrong to do, for as soon as a person confesses Christ, and repents of their sins, they should know what is wrong to do.

And the Bible says creation testifies of a God that created all things, and of His attributes, which one of them is love, for He provided food, and the means to make clothing, and shelter, so the world is without excuse, and the people that did not hear the word of God by nature know what is wrong to do.

So why would a saint think it takes them years to understand what is wrong wanting an excuse like they are learning not to do wrong.

We know what is wrong to do when we confess Christ, and we grow in Christ means that it is our effort to stop sinning which we knew all along what was wrong when we first confessed Christ.

Many people make excuses for their sins, and anybody that says they cannot abstain from sin, when the Bible says they can abstain from sin by the Spirit, and sin does not affect their relationship with God, when what seals the saints is departing from iniquity, there is something wrong.

But many hold unto sin, and do them on purpose enjoying the sin, and then want an excuse for that sin, when even the world can abstain from sin if they want as they choose what sins they like and do not like, and they are of the flesh so they enjoy sin.

And the hypocrites enjoy the sin and then want an excuse, but love does not think an evil thought, and abstains from sin by the Spirit.

So if they lack love then faith does not apply in their life, then grace does not apply in their life.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#32
Amen! But what of the idea that we are no longer under law? This is what trips up the greasy grace folks.

There is a subtlety going on here. More than one thing being communicated.
It seems it trips up the lawyers, that can’t understand the law was never given to show us HOW to be righteous, it was given to PROVE how unrighteous we are.

Which is why grace abounds, because where the law could not bring us to righteousness, grace found away.

People who reject grace in my view, have no comprehension of the law they demand people follow
 

Latour

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Jun 11, 2018
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#33
there are 2 ways to walk according to the bible...


1. to walk according to the flesh and thereby to be under the law

2. to walk according to the Spirit and thereby be under grace (since we can only walk in the Spirit by receiving grace from above)

The problem we have is that many people have mistakenly chosen a category for themselves based on opinion rather than the truth....so that while they walk according to the flesh they claim to be "under grace." Well, it sure sounds better.

Why would people do that? Confusion... or bad teaching.

We live at a time where everyone is their own king. Everyone wants to be respected in their own choices. So then if a person reads the bible...they will claim all the promises while avoiding all the warnings and teachings as something for other people...not them.

(People get very angry when you try to help them on this. Instead of trying to learn and grow...they will attack they who seek to bring them the truth. It has always been this way.)

So then contrary to those who say that grace means we will not be judged by our own performance...

We WILL be judged by OUR performance whether we availed ourselves of grace to walk according to the Spirit (we are the ones doing the walking hence our performance)...OR whether we have walked in our own power according to the flesh.

If we walk by the Spirit and cease from sin...we will live for we are under grace. If we walk by the flesh and continue to sin we will die for we are still enslaved to sin under the law.

There is no such thing as a sinful person being under grace. (I am not saying that we can't make mistakes and take wrong turns...then we have Jesus as an advocate for that). But to be under grace means that we are walking by faith...to enter into the perfect walk of Christ by the Spirit. Grace is the power to walk as Jesus. So then if we still sin then we are not under grace yet. It is only they who are under the law who sin.

We need to enter into Christ in order to walk as He walked. THAT is what it means to be "under grace."
 

Latour

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Jun 11, 2018
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#34
It is very human to compare ourselves with others instead of Christ. We will look for people who we see as misguided and think...see I'm not like that so I must be doing better.

So when we see a legalistic person (who keeps sabbath or something like that) we will say...my sabbath is all the time. But really we are thinking we are better than the other person. We see that others follow their own faulty reasoning...but without considering we are doing the same thing.

This is the blindness that all men have according to the flesh.

Prov. 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

So it very difficult to try talking to people who think they already have it right. If you try to correct them they will assume you are on the other side of the fence ...a side that they have pre-determined that they are doing better than.

This is why the gospel is so hard to receive for people who go to church or read the bible. They think they understand God and themselves...while really they understand neither.

Humility is key.

We must be open to see something wonderful and impossible sounding...but God's way...not our way.

We can live as Jesus without sin. With God ALL things are possible. What makes this miraculous walk possible for us? GRACE!
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#35
there are 2 ways to walk according to the bible...


1. to walk according to the flesh and thereby to be under the law

2. to walk according to the Spirit and thereby be under grace (since we can only walk in the Spirit by receiving grace from above)

The problem we have is that many people have mistakenly chosen a category for themselves based on opinion rather than the truth....so that while they walk according to the flesh they claim to be "under grace." Well, it sure sounds better.

Why would people do that? Confusion... or bad teaching.

We live at a time where everyone is their own king. Everyone wants to be respected in their own choices. So then if a person reads the bible...they will claim all the promises while avoiding all the warnings and teachings as something for other people...not them.

(People get very angry when you try to help them on this. Instead of trying to learn and grow...they will attack they who seek to bring them the truth. It has always been this way.)

So then contrary to those who say that grace means we will not be judged by our own performance...

We WILL be judged by OUR performance whether we availed ourselves of grace to walk according to the Spirit (we are the ones doing the walking hence our performance)...OR whether we have walked in our own power according to the flesh.

If we walk by the Spirit and cease from sin...we will live for we are under grace. If we walk by the flesh and continue to sin we will die for we are still enslaved to sin under the law.

There is no such thing as a sinful person being under grace. (I am not saying that we can't make mistakes and take wrong turns...then we have Jesus as an advocate for that). But to be under grace means that we are walking by faith...to enter into the perfect walk of Christ by the Spirit. Grace is the power to walk as Jesus. So then if we still sin then we are not under grace yet. It is only they who are under the law who sin.

We need to enter into Christ in order to walk as He walked. THAT is what it means to be "under grace."
If we walk under the flesh, we are not walking under grace, we are walking as the world walks,

What people need to realise is what walking in the flesh is, a child of god can fall to the will of the flesh, ie sin, but they can not walk in the flesh. The apostle john makes this clear, whoever has been born of god can not sin (live in or walk in)perid
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#36
there are 2 ways to walk according to the bible...


1. to walk according to the flesh and thereby to be under the law

2. to walk according to the Spirit and thereby be under grace (since we can only walk in the Spirit by receiving grace from above)

The problem we have is that many people have mistakenly chosen a category for themselves based on opinion rather than the truth....so that while they walk according to the flesh they claim to be "under grace." Well, it sure sounds better.

Why would people do that? Confusion... or bad teaching.

We live at a time where everyone is their own king. Everyone wants to be respected in their own choices. So then if a person reads the bible...they will claim all the promises while avoiding all the warnings and teachings as something for other people...not them.

(People get very angry when you try to help them on this. Instead of trying to learn and grow...they will attack they who seek to bring them the truth. It has always been this way.)

So then contrary to those who say that grace means we will not be judged by our own performance...

We WILL be judged by OUR performance whether we availed ourselves of grace to walk according to the Spirit (we are the ones doing the walking hence our performance)...OR whether we have walked in our own power according to the flesh.

If we walk by the Spirit and cease from sin...we will live for we are under grace. If we walk by the flesh and continue to sin we will die for we are still enslaved to sin under the law.

There is no such thing as a sinful person being under grace. (I am not saying that we can't make mistakes and take wrong turns...then we have Jesus as an advocate for that). But to be under grace means that we are walking by faith...to enter into the perfect walk of Christ by the Spirit. Grace is the power to walk as Jesus. So then if we still sin then we are not under grace yet. It is only they who are under the law who sin.

We need to enter into Christ in order to walk as He walked. THAT is what it means to be "under grace."
Remember:The Issue now Is FAITH.

JESUS paid the ultimate price on our behalf for sin, the law IS just but although the spirit Is willing the flesh Is weak and GOD looks at the heart so then men could not keep the law Inwardly because of the weakness of the flesh.

For we are HIS workmanship created In JESUS unto good works.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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#37
Remember:The Issue now Is FAITH.

JESUS paid the ultimate price on our behalf for sin, the law IS just but although the spirit Is willing the flesh Is weak and GOD looks at the heart so then men could not keep the law Inwardly because of the weakness of the flesh.

For we are HIS workmanship created In JESUS unto good works.
We walk by faith in His grace that overcomes sin... So that we put to death the deeds of the body...and live.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#38
Please refrain from passing on your errors to others. Grace is the power from God to walk as He walked. It is a free gift but it is meant to overcome sin with.Grace fulfills the law. If we walk by the Spirit we shall not sin.

Rom 3:31 Do we, then, nullify the Law through faith? Never may it be! Instead, we uphold Law.
I would agree the "church" has taught a very measured doctrine of grace of being "unmerited favour" when there is much much more in scripture and in Jesus.

Grace is indeed the Living Waters whereby we walk as He walked!! We are called to draw from grace continually.
Amen:)
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#39
Jesus did not come to abolish the law but rather gives us the grace to fulfill it. THAT is the purpose of grace...and that we would go to Him for it in full measure.

Why would we fulfill the law by grace when Jesus already fulfilled the law?

As well gentiles were never under the law.

I am not clear on what you are saying?
 
Dec 9, 2011
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#40
We walk by faith in His grace that overcomes sin... So that we put to death the deeds of the body...and live.
Just say JESUS overcame sin and now we can have a relationship with GOD who loves righteousness and HE gives Eternal Life to whosever will believe the WORD of GOD whom also was manifested In the flesh and paid the price of sin and the FATHER whom Is righteous gave us grace through faith.