How I became Post-Trib Rapture from a Pre-Trib denomination

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
#21
@kayem77

So if the tribulation is the persecution of the believers, do some believers survive the persecution? Otherwise, it'd be essentially rapturing nothing to have a post-trib rapture.

From what I've seen of the various eschatological views, I really don't like any from impression.

Ii'm not particularly favorable of Dispensationalsm (I'm beginning to explore that issue much more deeply now though, so things might change), and I know that Dispensationalism is what all the pre-mill stuff is built upon. I don't know that from impression I like the alternatives either.



Eschatology is probably the subject I know the least amount of. If much. I do know that if anyone says Christ is not returning, or already has, is wrong.

Anyway, last post by me in this thread. I don't know much about the subject, so I'll just sit back and watch.
 

kayem77

Senior Member
Feb 5, 2011
2,380
42
0
#22
@kayem77

So if the tribulation is the persecution of the believers, do some believers survive the persecution? Otherwise, it'd be essentially rapturing nothing to have a post-trib rapture.

From what I've seen of the various eschatological views, I really don't like any from impression.

Ii'm not particularly favorable of Dispensationalsm (I'm beginning to explore that issue much more deeply now though, so things might change), and I know that Dispensationalism is what all the pre-mill stuff is built upon. I don't know that from impression I like the alternatives either.



Eschatology is probably the subject I know the least amount of. If much. I do know that if anyone says Christ is not returning, or already has, is wrong.

Anyway, last post by me in this thread. I don't know much about the subject, so I'll just sit back and watch.
Well honestly I still have some doubts about the book of revelation, and symbols,etc. But as I had been reading more about this lately, I find the post-trib rapture more substantiated. The thing is that wrath and tribulation are not the same thing, Jesus promised we would be persecuted in this life. The GREAT tribulation will happen, as I see it, after satan comes into full power, and ALL the christians will be persecuted, more blatantly than before.

You ask if some believers will survive....well some will. After all the tribulation is going to be a hard time, but not the wrath of God. I think thats why this verse makes emphasis on those words:

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thes 4:17

There are so many verses that I find key to believe this, the ones that Jonathan posted are some of them. I found a study on one website about it, i think it was very interesting, i can send you the link if you want :).
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,065
65
48
#23
Ii'm not particularly favorable of Dispensationalsm (I'm beginning to explore that issue much more deeply now though, so things might change), and I know that Dispensationalism is what all the pre-mill stuff is built upon. I don't know that from impression I like the alternatives either...
Hey Jimmy, since you're obviously into protestantism of the reformed bent take a google on postmillennialism and amillennialism. There are some that holds to yet another view called historic premillennialism, but most of said persuasion holds to one of the two first mentioned.
 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#24
No pretrip at all.

It's like this,

The last trumpet (second and final coming of Jesus) sound (according to order - 5 events at least)

1.The appearing of the son of Man in the sky
2.End of tribulation
3.We shall all be changed
4.Caught up to be with the Lord
5.The reign of Christ on earth for a 1000 years.
 
Last edited:

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#25
I'm not sure having a post-trib rapture even makes sense. Who is there left to rapture?
lol

No one because the bride of Christ has already been caught up with Him in the air at His second coming.
 
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
0
#26
You are sorry that a brother in Christ has left deception and entered into truth. That strikes me as odd.
He has left the truth, and now believes error. In Matt 24, Jesus is not addressing the Christian church. It did not exist yet. He is addressing Israel. The events of Matt 24 will start after the church is gathered. At the end of the trib, Christ will return to fight armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom. The Christian church is not told to look for signs, but to "wait for the Lord from heaven". The signs in Matt 24 are for those left on the earth during the trib.
 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#27
He has left the truth, and now believes error. In Matt 24, Jesus is not addressing the Christian church. It did not exist yet. He is addressing Israel. The events of Matt 24 will start after the church is gathered. At the end of the trib, Christ will return to fight armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom. The Christian church is not told to look for signs, but to "wait for the Lord from heaven". The signs in Matt 24 are for those left on the earth during the trib.
Is the church of Christ and Israel the same?
 
Apr 13, 2011
2,229
11
0
#28
Is the church of Christ and Israel the same?
No. There are three groups.
1 Cor 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Prior to Pentecost, there were Jews and gentiles. Starting at Pentecost, both Jews and gentiles are to believe on Christ, become born again and become members of the church, the body of Christ. This "dispensation of grace", which was a mystery, "hid in God" until it was revealed to Paul, started at Pentecost and will end when Christ returns to gather the church (1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4). The church, as we know it now, will end, and things will revert to Jew and gentile once again. That is when the events of Matt 24, the trib, will start to take place. We'll be gone, with the Lord. We will return WITH him when he returns to the earth to fight armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
155
63
#29
I spoke in my church, a Pentecostal church and they tried to cast out the devil in me just for speaking Matt24.
29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.

31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
ouch.
then what happened?
 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#31
No. There are three groups.
1 Cor 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Prior to Pentecost, there were Jews and gentiles. Starting at Pentecost, both Jews and gentiles are to believe on Christ, become born again and become members of the church, the body of Christ. This "dispensation of grace", which was a mystery, "hid in God" until it was revealed to Paul, started at Pentecost and will end when Christ returns to gather the church (1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4). The church, as we know it now, will end, and things will revert to Jew and gentile once again. That is when the events of Matt 24, the trib, will start to take place. We'll be gone, with the Lord. We will return WITH him when he returns to the earth to fight armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom.
Ephesians 4:4-6 (KJV)
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
155
63
#32
No. There are three groups.
1 Cor 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

Prior to Pentecost, there were Jews and gentiles. Starting at Pentecost, both Jews and gentiles are to believe on Christ, become born again and become members of the church, the body of Christ. This "dispensation of grace", which was a mystery, "hid in God" until it was revealed to Paul, started at Pentecost and will end when Christ returns to gather the church (1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4). The church, as we know it now, will end, and things will revert to Jew and gentile once again. That is when the events of Matt 24, the trib, will start to take place. We'll be gone, with the Lord. We will return WITH him when he returns to the earth to fight armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom.
Scofield’s early theological training came under the Rev. James H. Brookes, pastor of the Walnut Street Presbyterian Church, St. Louis. Brookes was a friend and student of John Nelson Darby, the Plymouth Brethren leader. “J.N. Darby is usually regarded as the founder of Dispensationalism” (The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, Zondervan, 1978). Scofield’s biographer, Charles Trumbull, stated that Scofield was ignorant of things Christian up to 1879, the year he assigned to his conversion...

...In Rees’ ordination sermon “Dr.” Scofield said that people “are amazed when (they) turn back to the preaching of Finney and find that the very substance of it was stiff doctrine. But because it was God’s (italics in original) doctrine, men fell in thousands at the feet of Jesus, so in our day we find Spurgeon and Moody, preachers of the dear old doctrines” (Canfield, p. 136). But, as previously discussed, Finney’s doctrines were 180 degrees from Spurgeon’s, and did not represent the old, tried and true biblical teaching. Nonetheless, Scofield revealed that his own teaching belonged to Finney’s school of thought....
Dispensationalism

Dispensationalism teaches that there have been a variety of dispensations or administrations throughout history. At the heart of the differing dispensations have been different methods or ways that God has dealt with His people. According to Scofield, a dispensation is “a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God” (Douglas, p. 303-italics original). Scofield listed seven dispensations: Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Grace, and the Kingdom.

Dispensationalism’s unique contribution to theology is the belief that God treats or judges people differently in each dispensation. God’s treated people differently during the dispensation of Conscience than He did during the dispensation of Innocence, different during the dispensation of Promise than during Human Government, different during the dispensation of the Grace than the Law. This view is, however, contrary to historic, orthodox Christianity (what has been understood to be historic, orthodox Christianity until the Modern Age, that is).

The older view taught that God always treated or judged people by the same criteria because God is just and never changing. Particularly, the churches of the Protestant Reformation championed this view when they called the Church of Rome to Reformation. The Protestant churches turned away from the innovations and changes brought about by Rome. They not only went back to the Old Testament, but they returned to the original sources to study it.

The danger inherent in Dispensationalism is that people will believe that only certain parts of the Bible are relevant to them because they live in a particular dispensation. Too often such people believe that they can dispense with God’s law, that the whole of the Old Testament law no longer applies because we live in a dispensation of grace. However, the founders of Protestantism-Luther, Calvin, Knox, Owen, etc.-proclaimed that salvation was by grace alone, start to finish, cover-to-cover. Salvation has always been by grace. Abraham was saved by grace, as was Noah and Moses and Isaiah, etc.

The thing that people don’t realize is that Dispensationalism is a relatively new theology that was popularized by Scofield and his Reference Bible

http://pilgrim-platform.org/2010/c-i-scofield/
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,680
168
63
#33
so some are raptured and taken to heaven ,,,,,,,when christ and ten thousands of angels return to earth?????????? and the raptured ones go to heaven(at the same time christ sets up mil temple",,,,,,,,,??????? christ lives on earth "mil temple",,, with the bride,,,,,,,,,,should we wish to be raptured?,,,,,,wish we remain here with christ 1000 years mil. temple????,,,,,,,,,,or "just really dont understand it at all"???????????????
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
155
63
#34
No. There are three groups.
1 Cor 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews [unregenerate], nor to the Gentiles [unregenerate], nor to the church of God [regenerated jews and gentiles - the church - jew and gentile]:
neither to the Jews [unregenerate]
nor to the Gentiles [unregenerate]
nor to the church of God [regenerated jews and gentiles - the church - jew and gentile - one man]
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,065
65
48
#35
No. There are three groups.
1 Cor 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

...The church, as we know it now, will end, and things will revert to Jew and gentile once again. That is when the events of Matt 24, the trib, will start to take place. We'll be gone, with the Lord. We will return WITH him when he returns to the earth to fight armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom.
The church was never at any time in the history of the Saints a "paranthesis".

1Tim.3

[15] But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
[16] And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Gal.6

[15] For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
[16] And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Phil.3

[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#36
where's that described?
Sorry i got it backwards i meant they who reign with Christ a 1000 years in the city of the great king until the dragon is released again.

The Psalmist wrote, not primarily for his own time, but looking into the future, he was inspired to know that the time would come when Jerusalem should be "the joy of the whole earth." Jerusalem was "the city of the great king," but the King mentioned was not David nor Solomon, but a coming King. Jesus Himself quoted that phrase in Matthew 5:35 saying that none should swear by Jerusalem "for it is the city of the great King." There would be no blasphemy in taking the name of a man in vain. This great King is Jesus, the Son of God, very God Himself. No one should swear by Jerusalem, because it is the city of Jesus, the great King--not because it is the city of king David. This proves surely that the literal city of Jerusalem will be the center of the reign of Christ.

Revelation 20 followed by 21.

PS: Hi Zone and thnx..
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,065
65
48
#37
Scofield’s early theological training came under the Rev. James H. Brookes, pastor of the Walnut Street Presbyterian Church, St. Louis. Brookes was a friend and student of John Nelson Darby, the Plymouth Brethren leader. “J.N. Darby is usually regarded as the founder of Dispensationalism” (The New International Dictionary of the Christian Church, Zondervan, 1978). Scofield’s biographer, Charles Trumbull, stated that Scofield was ignorant of things Christian up to 1879, the year he assigned to his conversion...

...In Rees’ ordination sermon “Dr.” Scofield said that people “are amazed when (they) turn back to the preaching of Finney and find that the very substance of it was stiff doctrine. But because it was God’s (italics in original) doctrine, men fell in thousands at the feet of Jesus, so in our day we find Spurgeon and Moody, preachers of the dear old doctrines” (Canfield, p. 136). But, as previously discussed, Finney’s doctrines were 180 degrees from Spurgeon’s, and did not represent the old, tried and true biblical teaching. Nonetheless, Scofield revealed that his own teaching belonged to Finney’s school of thought....
Dispensationalism

Dispensationalism teaches that there have been a variety of dispensations or administrations throughout history. At the heart of the differing dispensations have been different methods or ways that God has dealt with His people. According to Scofield, a dispensation is “a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God” (Douglas, p. 303-italics original). Scofield listed seven dispensations: Innocence, Conscience, Human Government, Promise, Law, Grace, and the Kingdom.

Dispensationalism’s unique contribution to theology is the belief that God treats or judges people differently in each dispensation. God’s treated people differently during the dispensation of Conscience than He did during the dispensation of Innocence, different during the dispensation of Promise than during Human Government, different during the dispensation of the Grace than the Law. This view is, however, contrary to historic, orthodox Christianity (what has been understood to be historic, orthodox Christianity until the Modern Age, that is).

The older view taught that God always treated or judged people by the same criteria because God is just and never changing. Particularly, the churches of the Protestant Reformation championed this view when they called the Church of Rome to Reformation. The Protestant churches turned away from the innovations and changes brought about by Rome. They not only went back to the Old Testament, but they returned to the original sources to study it.

The danger inherent in Dispensationalism is that people will believe that only certain parts of the Bible are relevant to them because they live in a particular dispensation. Too often such people believe that they can dispense with God’s law, that the whole of the Old Testament law no longer applies because we live in a dispensation of grace. However, the founders of Protestantism-Luther, Calvin, Knox, Owen, etc.-proclaimed that salvation was by grace alone, start to finish, cover-to-cover. Salvation has always been by grace. Abraham was saved by grace, as was Noah and Moses and Isaiah, etc.

The thing that people don’t realize is that Dispensationalism is a relatively new theology that was popularized by Scofield and his Reference Bible

http://pilgrim-platform.org/2010/c-i-scofield/
Thanx for this one sis, it clears up so much with relatively little text.
 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#38
so some are raptured and taken to heaven ,,,,,,,when christ and ten thousands of angels return to earth?????????? and the raptured ones go to heaven(at the same time christ sets up mil temple",,,,,,,,,??????? christ lives on earth "mil temple",,, with the bride,,,,,,,,,,should we wish to be raptured?,,,,,,wish we remain here with christ 1000 years mil. temple????,,,,,,,,,,or "just really dont understand it at all"???????????????
There will be a caught up with the Lord in the air no doubt but that does not mean we will go straight to heaven.

Jesus along with His bride will reign on earth in the new city Jerusalem forever but the old serpent the devil will be cast into the bottomless pit a thousand years after that Satan and his followers along with death and hell will be thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:1-3 (KJV)
And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 21:1-3 (KJV)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
 
Last edited:

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
3,680
168
63
#39
yes cronjecj,,,,,,,my "???" somtime i will "ask",,,,,,the very scriptures you quote prove that the concept of "rapture,,,,,leaving this world" and christ coming in the mil. cannot be correct,,,,, so now the "believers of rapture and taken to heaven",,,,,must sort it out
 

cronjecj

Banned [Reason: ongoing "extreme error/heresy" Den
Sep 25, 2011
1,934
13
0
#40
Revelation 20:6-9 (KJV)
6.Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7.And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


8.And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


9.And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

New Jerusalem? but then we only see it coming down from heaven in Revelation 21.

Revelation 21:1-3 (KJV)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Does Revelation 21 happens a 1000 years after Revelation 20 is fulfilled?