How I became Post-Trib Rapture from a Pre-Trib denomination

[zone]

Sorry i got it backwards i meant they who reign with Christ a 1000 years in the city of the great king until the dragon is released again.

The Psalmist wrote, not primarily for his own time, but looking into the future, he was inspired to know that the time would come when Jerusalem should be "the joy of the whole earth." Jerusalem was "the city of the great king," but the King mentioned was not David nor Solomon, but a coming King. Jesus Himself quoted that phrase in Matthew 5:35 saying that none should swear by Jerusalem "for it is the city of the great King." There would be no blasphemy in taking the name of a man in vain. This great King is Jesus, the Son of God, very God Himself. No one should swear by Jerusalem, because it is the city of Jesus, the great King--not because it is the city of king David. This proves surely that the literal city of Jerusalem will be the center of the reign of Christ.

Revelation 20 followed by 21.

PS: Hi Zone and thnx..

hi brother!
will be is actually is.

New Jerusalem is an actual literal city.

Galatians 4
21Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

~

Psalm 90:4
For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night

2 Peter 3:8
But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

Psalm 50:10
For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.

Psalm 91:7
A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.

2 Chronicles 1:6
Solomon went up to the bronze altar before the LORD in the Tent of Meeting and offered a thousand burnt offerings on it.

1 Kings 8:5
And King Solomon and all the congregation of Israel, who had assembled before him, were with him before the ark, sacrificing so many sheep and oxen that they could not be counted or numbered.

~

Rev 20 just zooms back and encompasses the period between the First and Second Advents.
that's all it means: a thousand years - figurative, happening now.

Revelation 20
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea....


2 Thessalonians 2:6
New International Version (©1984)
And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.

New Living Translation (©2007)
And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes.

English Standard Version (©2001)
And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

International Standard Version (©2008)
You know what it is that is now holding him back, so that he will be revealed when his time comes.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And now you know what controls, that he may be revealed in his time.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
You know what it is that now holds him back, so that he will be revealed when his time comes.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And now you know what restrains that he might be revealed in his time.

American King James Version
And now you know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time.

American Standard Version
And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

Bible in Basic English
And now it is clear to you what is keeping back his revelation till the time comes for him to be seen.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And now you know what withholdeth, that he may be revealed in his time.

Darby Bible Translation
And now ye know that which restrains, that he should be revealed in his own time.

English Revised Version
And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

Webster's Bible Translation
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

Weymouth New Testament
And now you know what restrains him, in order that his true character may be revealed at his appointed time.

World English Bible
Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season.

Young's Literal Translation
and now, what is keeping down ye have known, for his being revealed in his own time

 

[iamsoandso]

now even in the mill. "there will be no more death,ect.ect." so come into play isaiah 65;20 which seems to be a proficy that for unreitiousness the sinner will die an 100 years old,,,that is be will "die",,,, and the reitious,,,,, his days will be "as the tree" in enoch he also refers to a day when mans days(lifetime) will be increased back to like in the beggining 1200 years or so.... my point isnt to "argue this",,,,, it is if in the mil temple "no more death and no more tears",,,,then if this"isaiah 65;20" must be fufilled first",,,,,,,,,,,,becouse one is being born and living and then dieing,,,,,,,,,and the other is being born and living as the days of the tree and then dying,,,,,,,,and so after the mil this cannot be fulfilled,,,,,becouse theres no more "death"

 

[zone]

Thanx for this one sis, it clears up so much with relatively little text.

yea brother.
that hermeneutic is a tough one to undo.

little by little though....snip snip snip

 

[cronjecj]

yes cronjecj,,,,,,,my "???" somtime i will "ask",,,,,,the very scriptures you quote prove that the concept of "rapture,,,,,leaving this world" and christ coming in the mil. cannot be correct,,,,, so now the "believers of rapture and taken to heaven",,,,,must sort it out

Yes soandso who said there will be a rapture to heaven? lol

Only a caught up with the Lord in the air (Post trip, after tribulation)

Peace.

 

[zone]

now even in the mill. "there will be no more death,ect.ect." so come into play isaiah 65;20 which seems to be a proficy that for unreitiousness the sinner will die an 100 years old,,,that is be will "die",,,, and the reitious,,,,, his days will be "as the tree" in enoch he also refers to a day when mans days(lifetime) will be increased back to like in the beggining 1200 years or so.... my point isnt to "argue this",,,,, it is if in the mil temple "no more death and no more tears",,,,then if this"isaiah 65;20" must be fufilled first",,,,,,,,,,,,becouse one is being born and living and then dieing,,,,,,,,,and the other is being born and living as the days of the tree and then dying,,,,,,,,and so after the mil this cannot be fulfilled,,,,,becouse theres no more "death"

First Advent...(a thousand years - figurative term)......satan's little season/Second Advent-Judgment > ETERNITY

 

[iamsoandso]

maby i should save this for another day,,,,,,,the "s's" when ask about this day jesus said "war's,rumer's war's,earthquake's diver's place's,,,,,,,,,,every word is "plural" more than once,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,so this that he described happens "twice" there are two wars in proficy and its easy to confuse and combine these two,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,one is the war between "babylon and gog magog " and the earth shaking to and fro "earthquakes" and then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"armegedon" notice that "babylon" doesent play any part in "armegedon" babylon is already destroyed by this time gog is still in the earth but is reduced to one sixth of its milatary,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,"unknown peroid of time,,,man of sin rises,,,,,,the earth believes it is armegedon i.e.babylon/gogs war and so he rises and tells the earth he is christ come to set up the mil temple",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,then "armegedon",,,,,,,,,this is the biggest clue,,,that is gog magog rises up after "armegedon and again goes to overthrough isrial",,,,,, this left me "scratching my head",,,,,,"after armegedon" you would think gog would know better by then christ returning and all,,,, but notice when they are destroyed by fire from heaven :after the 1000 years"

 

[iamsoandso]

"who said" like the movie "left behind",,,,,,,,,,,,they go somewere else,,,,,but scr. is different

 

[iamsoandso]

and yes "loosed a little season" after the 1000 years,,,,,,to decieve the earth,,,,,,after theres no more death that would mean that some still were in a position to still be decieved after christ returns and the 1000 years

 

[iamsoandso]

i have to go for now ill be back throu-out the day

 

[zone]

that would mean that some still were in a position to still be decieved after christ returns and the 1000 years

Amillennialism rejects the idea of glorified believers and sinners living together on earth, as premillennialism would have us believe, because it is unscriptural. Berkhof rightly identifies this problem when he says “The premillennial theory entangles itself in all kinds of insuperable difficulties with its doctrine of the millennium. It is impossible to understand how a part of the old earth and of sinful humanity can exist alongside of a part of the new earth and of a humanity that is glorified.”[28]


How is it that perfect, glorified saints can have contact with sinners rotting in their earthly flesh? How can the eternal Word, establish His kingdom on a sinful earth that has not been renewed? How is it that sinners will be able to stand in the presence of the glory of the Christ and the radiance of the glorified saints without being consumed by His perfect holiness? Remembering that even Paul and John were completely overwhelmed by the visions they had of Christ [Acts 26:12-14, Rev. 1:17].


If Christ comes to reign over the earth for a 1000 years, then how then could people still persist in sin? And moreover how could they persist to such a point that Satan manages to raise an army to battle against Christ. Does not this seem highly unlikely? And yet this is what one must believe if one embraces premillennialism. Surely if the glorified Christ were to reign on earth for a 1000 years, sinners would either be consumed by His holiness or would quickly bow the knee to Him, repenting of their sins and placing their faith in the Sovereign Lord[29].


In his 95 Theses against Dispensationalism, A.W. Pink highlights some of the key problems with a Dispensational premillennial view, when he says;


“75. Despite dispensationalism’s “plain and simple” method that undergirds its millennial views, it leads to the bizarre teaching that for 1000 years the earth will be inhabited by a mixed population of resurrected saints who return from heaven with Jesus living side-by-side with non-resurrected people, who will consist of unbelievers who allegedly but unaccountably survive the Second Coming as well as those who enter the millennium from the Great Tribulation as “a new generation of believers” (Walvoord).


76. Despite dispensationalists’ claim to reasonableness for their views, they hold the bizarre teaching that after 1000 years of dwelling side-by-side with resurrected saints who never get ill or die, a vast multitude of unresurrected sinners whose number is “like the sand of the seashore,” will dare to revolt against the glorified Christ and His millions of glorified saints (Rev 20:7-9).


77. Despite the dispensationalists’ fundamental principle of God’s glory, they teach a second humiliation of Christ, wherein He returns to earth to set up His millennial kingdom, ruling it personally for 1000 years, only to have a multitude “like the sand of the seashore” revolt against His personal, beneficent rule toward the end (Rev 20:7-9).”[30]

http://solideogloria-joshua.blogspot.com/2011/01/amillennialism.html

 

[ada]

"who said" like the movie "left behind",,,,,,,,,,,,they go somewere else,,,,,but scr. is different

What is the meaning of your chat style sentence instead off coherent speech?
And why so many ",,,,,,,,,,,,"? Is this your personal armadillo?

 

[Scotth1960]

]

I was previously someone who believed Pre-trib rapture and

have heard alot about Pre-trib from my denomination and

from Bible College. I find one problem with Pre-trib rapture

teaching I do not believe was ever addressed and that is

Matthew 24:29-31.

Matthew 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those

days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give

her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers

of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the

sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes

of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming

in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he

shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and

they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from

one end of heaven to the other.

This verse guarantees a Post-Tribulation Rapture. The only

theory I can offer Pre-Tribulation teachers is that they must

now believe in two rapture events! The problem with that is,

that there is not a verse that proclaims that there will be two

rapture events. Matthew 24:29-31 is Jesus coming to gather

His saints. I believe that this passage of Scripture should be

placed alongside other verses that are concerning the

Rapture. This is most definitely the Rapture.

This verse adds angels to the Rapture teaching. To be honest

I was never taught that the angels had anything to do with it.

It could be due to a complete avoidance of this passage by

Pre-Trib preachers and teachers. This is the verse that

changed my view of the Rapture to Post-Trib and I suspect

that that is the reason that this verse was never addressed. I

believe Pre-Trib believers avoid these verses. They are not

usually quoted or taught with other Rapture verses in

Pre-Trib denominations.

Dear jonathanbchristian: The pre-tribulation rapture is one

of the destructive heresies warned against in the Bible. Thus:

"False Prophets and Teachers "But false prophets also arose

among the people, just as there will be false teachers among

you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even

denying the Master [LORD] who brought them, bringing upon

themselves swift destruction". 2 Peter 2:1 ESV

God bless you all. In search of Christ Jesus, In Erie PA

Scott R. Harrington

 

[iamsoandso]

" in the beginning",,,,,that is of the "www" i went to christian chat rooms ,,,"aol bible discussion",,"christian fourm" ect.,,at times i noticed people would be very "angry at what i wrote",so i didnt want them to take offence,,,i speek calm,and slow,,,"but how do i mean what i type? now at the time i had read the bible kjv from end to end i was about 18 when i first read it,,,,"spooked me bad,,,,couse i didnt understand it",,,,,,so i reread it,,,i was scared becouse by then in my 20's i also had children,,,,,,"the delima" was that if i didnt understand it ,,,,well then how could i tell my family and friends that i loved if i didnt understand it myself?,,,so the second time i read it i was doing it for you and them from "love" the first time was to so i could "brag,and say to people,,,i read every word of it",,,thats why i couldnt understand it.i noticed in the bible,,that some things we read "that was written a long time ago",well we scratch our heads and think,, well it could mean this or,,,,but if he was mad it could of meant somthing a little different,,,,for some reason we think of jesus as always speaking "real soft and loving,,and never excited",,,,,,eccept when he flipped over the money changers tables,, but did he play "hide and go seek with the children"?,,,,,so but in the nature of the "computor",,, that is the fact that im way over here and your way over there,,,i do have my "little armadilo",,,,,,you are the "temple of god,,,and he is in you",,,,"so if i say anofencive thing to you i have laid an evil fruit at the temple of god and the god that is in you recieves it",,,so if god is in me ,,,,then i should take every attempt to not offend any of you by my speach i said years ago,,,,,,,,,"i have four foot long hairs in my nose",,,,,,,,,,now did i say "all the hairs in my nose were four feet long",,,,,or that "i have four hairs in my nose that are a foot long"?????? just one "comma",,,would change the whole thing,,,, unless on a computor i type quotation mark brackets,a comma,, and then another quotation mark bracket then it looks like this "," now if at times you look at some of my post i seem "smartellic",,,,,i really dont mean to "seem that way",,,,,,ive been to a lot of "chat rooms",,,some are very "angry",,,,,,some filled with "drunkards",,, but i do "tip my hat to this chat room" it has many people from different religions,,, and you all seem to be discussing the "just of the scriptures",,,, form different points of view,,pretty much without arguing",,,,,i notice when you all disagree you do so with kindness to one another

 

[notIbutChrist]

He has left the truth, and now believes error. In Matt 24, Jesus is not addressing the Christian church. It did not exist yet. He is addressing Israel. The events of Matt 24 will start after the church is gathered. At the end of the trib, Christ will return to fight armageddon and set up the millennial kingdom. The Christian church is not told to look for signs, but to "wait for the Lord from heaven". The signs in Matt 24 are for those left on the earth during the trib.

I fell sorry for you, you seem to be rooted very deep in the pretrib deception

 

[NoahsMom]

I'm not sure having a post-trib rapture even makes sense. Who is there left to rapture? this made me laugh. I was flippin thru the tv last night, saw tribulation force 2 the movie, and my husband said..." Now thats plain crazy, if your saved, and believe in Jesus, why are those folks still here".......as he rolled his eyes....lol.

 

[Crossfire]

I have talked with a friend or two from Bible College about it. One was considering changing his view but said he didn't think he could see the whole picture yet. I haven't been able to change anyone's mind. I believe they need to read Matthew 24:29-31 for themselves. I have not told my church as a whole because I have not been asked to speak.

More & more Charismatics are starting to embrace this view. Shortly after becoming saved, I attended a Charismatic church at the time I realized that the Pre Trib rapture did not add up scripturally. They were not pleased to hear that I no longer embraced this perspective. One person even attempted to use my position on this issue against me in order to satisfy their own selfish ambitions in the church.

I wouldn't expect your church to be very accepting of it.

 

[Crossfire]

I agree that Post trib doesn't make much sense either. I'm not as fan of the Mid trib position either. The only one that makes sense to me is the Pre Wrath position.

Since you are already studying Matthew 24 read Mark 16 as well. Both record the same speech by Christ. Then turn over and read Luke 21. Many think it is the same speech as in Matthew 24 & Mark 16. They're not. Note the subtle but very distinct differences.

Then turn over and read Revelations 6 & especially the start of Rev 7 and compare it to Matthew 24. I believe you will find the answer you are looking for.

 

[shroom2]

I fell sorry for you, you seem to be rooted very deep in the pretrib deception

Don't "fell" sorry for me. I am rooted in the truth. I believe the bible teaches the pretrib rapture will happen, and the millennial kingdom is still future.

We'll find out.

 

[iamsoandso]

now this is a question for the mind,,,,,,,,,becouse it might help,,,,,,,,,,,,,in egypt,,,the hebrew had a proficy that is also quoted in egyptian history becouse moses grew up their,,,,,,"a deliverer" what book was it written in if "moses wrote the first five books you are holding?",,,,,,,,,,,,what book were they quoting when he was a baby,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,when the pharoe said "kill the first born males of the hebrew",,,,becouse of this proficy?????

 

[notIbutChrist]

Don't "fell" sorry for me. I am rooted in the truth. I believe the bible teaches the pretrib rapture will happen, and the millennial kingdom is still future.

We'll find out.

You are rooted in a lie of man. There is indeed a future millennial reign, but no pretrib rapture