How Many Requirements Exist

wattie · Oct 19, 2022

At salvation you'd be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. There would then be fruit from that as the result of indwelling.

If you got into sin.. you'd be corrected and rebuked by God.. so it is unlikely someone seriously sinning continually after salvation would continue in it.

But since we have free will it is not impossible.

Any believer.. could tomorrow commit serious sin.

In fact.. have you thought about how many Christians on this site would have problems with internet porn?

Have they all lost salvation?

Magenta · Oct 19, 2022

wattie said:

Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

Inquisitor · Oct 19, 2022

wattie said:

If we just accept that all those that call on the name of Jesus are saved. Then we can ignore the rest of the New Testament's teaching.

We don't need to attend church.

We do not need fellowship.

Prayer is not necessary.

You can pursue wealth and power simply because you call on the name of Jesus. That is how you are saved.

Did someone mention a prosperity gospel?

Salvation is a gift freely accepted at zero cost.

Now that's the gospel I want.

Inquisitor · Oct 19, 2022

wattie said:

This is the question that arises.

On the one hand we have that free gift by grace, and on the other hand, we have the passions and desires of our flesh.

These two paradigms are in direct conflict with one another.

It's possible for a Christian to walk away from Jesus, that's a fact.

Jesus would never allow anything to separate us from Him and that's also a fact.

Yet there is an exception.

Your personal daily choices have long term consequences, pursue the world and the world you will receive, in full measure

Pursue Jesus every day and your salvation remains rock solid.

Choose you this day who you will serve?

wattie · Oct 20, 2022

Inquisitor said:

But that's worldly thinking.

Jesus' love is so deep He seals a believer for eternity.

He also will correct and rebuke a believer.

Grace and truth combined.

But a believer.. has the Holy Spirit in their soul.. why would they go on and think worldly.. I can now do whatever I want?

That isn't understanding what Jesus has done for them.

It's like rebelling against your parents because they stay your parents thru all your problems.

That's not thinking spiritually.

Inquisitor · Oct 20, 2022

wattie said:

But that is exactly what the churches were doing.

That is why the apostles wrote their letters.

To correct and teach the churches.

The Hebrews and the Galatian church were in serious trouble, both on the verge of falling from grace.

I have observed that many modern churches reflect some of the same issues as in the first century.

Divisions, worldliness, greed, gluttony, etc. Christians who grow up in the Lord and Christians who default.

Those N.T. letters are timeless because they are addressing people whose nature never changes.

Aslanfriend · Oct 20, 2022

I think the only real requirement would be to be truly born again, not just believe. Even the demons believe and shudder at their future end. Jesus told Nicodemus that this was necessary to be born again by the Spirit of God. (John 3:3) And to be born again one must recognize they are a sinner and repent and believe Jesus died for all their sins...if we believe He gave us His one and only son to save us. (John 3:16)

Then a born again person's life is completely transformed by Jesus which will in turn produce good fruit, like loving others like themself, as mentioned in this thread already. So I see it as a total complete surrender of your life to Him and making Him Lord of your life as well, not just casually believing He is who He says He is. If it were just plain old believing, I think the road would not be so narrow. It is living a transformed life in Him...and those will surely see Heaven and be with Jesus forever.

wattie · Oct 20, 2022

Aslanfriend said:

Okay,

John 3:16- Someone believes in Jesus.. they have eternal life.

The believing.. is along the lines of belief that He is God.. that He lived sinless, that He died and rose again and that you are entrusting your salvation with Him.

Demons don't do that!

Demons know He exists.. but they don't entrust their salvation with Him! This is not the right comparison.

Believing in Jesus-- that is being born again! Jesus delivers someone eternally the moment they believe in Him.

Living a life set for Jesus is the response to being given eternal life.. giving love back to Him. It isn't the means of getting eternal life though. It cannot be earned by our behaviour. There is nothing redemptive about our behaviour.

This is all about the difference between eternal salvation and service to Jesus. They are different things. Not dependent on each-other.

Eph_1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Joh_5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I could go on and on..

It's always the same issue-- mixing up service to Jesus with eternal salvation.

Inquisitor · Oct 20, 2022

Aslanfriend said:

Here are some verses that highlight the relationship of just believing, to our salvation.

John 3:15
So that everyone who believes will have eternal life in Him.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:18
The one who believes in Him is not judged; the one who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36
The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:35
Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who comes to Me will not be hungry, and the one who believes in Me will never be thirsty.

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.

And so it goes on.

John 7:38
The one who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water'.

John 11:25
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; the one who believes in Me will live, even if he dies,

John 11:26
And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?

John 12:44
Now Jesus cried out and said, “The one who believes in Me, does not believe only in Me, but also in Him who sent Me.

John 12:46
I have come as Light into the world, so that no one who believes in Me will remain in darkness.

John 14:12
Truly, truly I say to you, the one who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I am going to the Father.

Inquisitor · Oct 20, 2022

wattie said:

That's the million dollar question.

Galatians 5:19
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: sexual immorality, impurity, indecent behavior, 20 idolatry, witchcraft, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

It seems that Paul has issued a strong warning about the deeds of the flesh.

Salt_Of_God · Oct 20, 2022

Two requirements. To love the Truth and to love your brother.

Inquisitor · Oct 20, 2022

Salt_Of_God said:

That seems to be the best summary so far.

mailmandan · Oct 20, 2022

Cameron143 said:

Amen! Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-SUFFICIENT means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost.

mailmandan · Oct 20, 2022

Everlasting-Grace said:

There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal/pseudo" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

Everlasting-Grace · Oct 20, 2022

mailmandan said:

Human reasoning says that is not enough. That merely by trusting in someone who died 2000 years ago is ok. but it must be more than that

so they do as the jews did, they add things,

the jew had circumcision added The church adds water baptism

the jew had obedience to the law, the church has obedience to the law of the church

the jew had sins that were deemed as unforgivable. the church does the same..

the jew failed to see that we were all sinners, that even the smallest sin is enough to cause the curse of the law. So they rail on and attack prostitutes and tax collectors, and extreme sinners. the church fails to see it also. railing and attacking killers, and the sexually immoral. and people who commit those sins, while failing to see their own sin is just as damning.

Thats why it is so easy for satan to distort the gospel of christ into a gospel of works. because it is human nature to reject something that is seemingly so easy, while in reality we find that grace through faith minus works is really very difficult for a human to accept. it is against our nature and foolishness to us

WillB · Oct 20, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

WillB said:
Will: Okay. Thanks for clearing up that point - appreciated.

But the Earth was created for the purpose of providing a Paradise home to humans to live in forever, was it not?

And in Revelation, Jesus informs "Then I saw a new heaven and a new Earth...." Revelation 21: 1ff

Does this not inform that after Armageddon - God's War against corrupt wilfully disobedient humans - that the Earth will be renewed?
Pilgrimshope: yeah I’m not sure really what you are asking see from long ago God has been saying this to mankind

“For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”
Isaiah 65:17 KJV

Will: In ‘The Prophecy of Isaiah: An Introduction & Commentary’ the Hebrew Scholar J. Alec Motyer says of the verse you cited:

“Former things picks up the reference to ‘former troubles’ in verse 16e but expresses a ‘grander’ conception; not only its sorrows but everything about the old order will be gone in this total renewal.”

Pilgrimshope: We’re still living in the first earth the one created from the beginning he’s warning us that it’s going to end and he’s makin a new creation new heaven and new earth in the future and he’s saying “ if you believe your going to live forever in that creation with me until then your going to the kingdom of heaven until I destroy earth and remake everything new so basically we’re in this position

WB: When you wrote “he’s saying” presumably you mean God (or Isaiah speaking on behalf of God) ?

Where in the verse you cited does it say “until I destroy earth and remake everything new” ?

Is it possible that you are reading into Scripture that which is not there? Does the explanation given by Motyer change your view? If not, would you please explain?

Pilgrimshope: As Christian’s this is our great hope and belief and our current situation as we live earthly life

“knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
2 Peter 3:3-13

like Noah in the gospel God told us it’s all ending someday and he’s promised a better and perfect place for those who believe the gospel of these things he’s promised in his everlasting kingdom that we can hear and believe and trust for salvstion

it’s all there in scriptire but most of it are things we have to believe even though we can’t see proof his word has to prove it to us

WB: If I understand you correctly you are of the view that because the “world perished” in the Global Flood of Noah’s time therefore the current earth will be destroyed as mentioned in Peter?

I understand why you hold that view. Very probably you know that even amongst Christians there are differences of view on this issue and which includes the ‘fire’ referred to the destruction of the Jewish system?

That’s not a view I hold to and mention it only to illustrate different views held sincerely.

Going back to the Global Flood. Was the ‘world’ i.e. Earth destroyed (perished)? Or was it the ungodly people?

And in his letter does not Peter write that in the future it will be “ungodly men who are under judgement”?

Is it not possible – in light of what Motyer has to say and the other factors mentioned including that you are, seemingly, of the view that there will be a ‘new earth’ that there isn’t a literal destruction of this present Planet but that the renewal is to do with the elimination of wicked humans who refuse to obey God?

studentoftheword · Oct 20, 2022

ForestGreenCook said:
All of the qualities you have listed are products of the regenerated person, not products of the unregenerate. There are no requirements to get to heaven. It is by God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.
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[QUOTE="Inquisitor, post: 4943576, member: 314691"]Obviously, we can only be saved by grace.[/QUOTE]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I say ---there is a big Problem with people stating being saved just by Grace alone ---this is what John Calvin says ------no need to have Faith ---God's Grace saves you -----this is false Doctrine -----and very dangerous for people to be preaching in this manner as that is not what Scripture means or really say -----
Saving Grace comes through Saving Faith in Jesus Christ --------God's Agape and His Grace for His Creation ---sent His only Son to pay the price for all people that we actually deserve -----

So God in His Grace made Salvation available to all His Creation ----but His Saving Grace COMES THROUGH Saving Faith ---very important to understand that ----Faith in Jesus is the foundation for being able to partake in His Saving Grace ------

Greek word for Grace

Strong's Concordance
charis: grace, kindness
grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ,
("grace") answers directly to the Hebrew (OT) term 2580 /Kaná ("grace, extension-toward"). Both refer to God freely extending Himself (His favor, grace), reaching (inclining) to people because He is disposed to bless (be near) them.

So God in His Grace ------freely extended --towards His Creation Salvation ----it is God's free Gift to mankind ------that is true ----but you have to receive this free gift -----and you can't receive this free Gift without First having Faith in Jesus Christ ----Who took your sins away ------

So Grace make Salvation available only--- to all people ---it is there freely for the taking ------but without the right faith you cannot receive it -----

Saving Faith is a substance -----Faith is your title deed to what God's Grace makes available freely to us ----
https://biblehub.com/greek/5287.htm

Strong's Concordance
hupostasis: a support, substance, steadiness, hence assurance
a giving substance (or reality)

hypóstasis ("title of possession") is the Lord's guarantee to fulfill the faith He inbirths

(cf. Heb 11:1 with Heb 11:6). Indeed we are only entitled to what God grants faith for (Ro 14:23).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if we want to say we are saved by Grace alone ---then it should be explained properly so that your not wrongly dividing the Word -----cause this could send people to their wrong destination in their end

God says this in James 3 ---which is to do with ------taming the tongue

Pilgrimshope · Oct 20, 2022

WillB said:

“Does this not inform that after Armageddon - God's War against corrupt wilfully disobedient humans - that the Earth will be renewed?”

yeah there’s never been a disagreement there. Heaven is new now Christ is on his throne in heaven that’s where believers are with him until “ armeggedon happens “ and this will bring the lake of fire which will burn this earth because of what man did to it see I think we’re talking about different things honestly

See your acknolwedging this part

“But the Earth was created for the purpose of providing a Paradise home to humans to live in forever, was it not?”

it’s progressive a narrative a lot happened to alter the course you have to let the scriptire progress from there to here to see what I’m saying

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6, 17,

do you see what I’m saying ? That cirse that decoured the earth because the covenant was broken is this curse

“Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

a blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

and a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭11:26-28‬ ‭

they broke that covenant which corresponds to this earth

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses law given to abrams flesh descendants is the law of this earth it was. Token and became a curse on this earth which will end in fire and destruction for all its inhabitants from all time but for those who accept Christ

so you’ll have this

“For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭66:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What Jesus has done is this

“and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:10‬ ‭

so you’ll have this

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree with you about the order this earth has to end that day your calling Armageddon in fire and destruction from the lord for all the wrath against all the sin and evil from the first to the last but we have a better Hope than that delivered from it from this cursed creation ,into his promises creation

So you have an end for this earth after the Great War concludes when Satan is cast into the fires just as he was cast out of heaven after the war when Jesus ascended to the throne heaven went through a war already and the kingdom is come in heaven, after the conflict on earth concludes Christ will return in victory from heaven to earth and the kingdom will be manifest in earth as it is in heaven

what I was saying earlier were in this situation waiting for Jesus to come restore everything the same day he destroys it but first saves believers from that fire of the punishment of the ungodly which this earth and the natural
Heavens are for this purpose that day

we currently are here waiting for all that

“but the heavens and the earth,(the natural things we see ) which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens ( sun moon stars the created things we see in the heavens ) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7-13‬ ‭

he’s promised even though mankind cursed this creation with sin and death he’s made a new one

“I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it?

I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:3, 6-7‬ ‭

One is going to end and one is going to be made known but try y are both correct and simultaneous the flesh and spirit I really don’t disagree with most of what your saying really

I was only ever saying heaven is an actual place where peoples spirits go to be with Jesus until the restoration of all things on earth heaven is a place it’s just not of our flesh world

I’m not sure why we went into the rest of this it seems we’re talking about two different ideas of the same subject neither really disagreeing with the other just talking about different things how , why , when ect brings different details

WillB · Oct 20, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

“Does this not inform that after Armageddon - God's War against corrupt wilfully disobedient humans - that the Earth will be renewed?”

yeah there’s never been a disagreement there. Heaven is new now Christ is on his throne in heaven that’s where believers are with him until “ armeggedon happens “ and this will bring the lake of fire which will burn this earth because of what man did to it see I think we’re talking about different things honestly

See your acknolwedging this part

“But the Earth was created for the purpose of providing a Paradise home to humans to live in forever, was it not?”

it’s progressive a narrative a lot happened to alter the course you have to let the scriptire progress from there to here to see what I’m saying

“The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭24:5-6, 17,

do you see what I’m saying ? That cirse that decoured the earth because the covenant was broken is this curse

“Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

a blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

and a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭11:26-28‬ ‭

they broke that covenant which corresponds to this earth

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Moses law given to abrams flesh descendants is the law of this earth it was. Token and became a curse on this earth which will end in fire and destruction for all its inhabitants from all time but for those who accept Christ

so you’ll have this

“For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭66:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What Jesus has done is this

“and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:10‬ ‭

so you’ll have this

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I agree with you about the order this earth has to end that day your calling Armageddon in fire and destruction from the lord for all the wrath against all the sin and evil from the first to the last but we have a better Hope than that delivered from it from this cursed creation ,into his promises creation

So you have an end for this earth after the Great War concludes when Satan is cast into the fires just as he was cast out of heaven after the war when Jesus ascended to the throne heaven went through a war already and the kingdom is come in heaven, after the conflict on earth concludes Christ will return in victory from heaven to earth and the kingdom will be manifest in earth as it is in heaven

what I was saying earlier were in this situation waiting for Jesus to come restore everything the same day he destroys it but first saves believers from that fire of the punishment of the ungodly which this earth and the natural
Heavens are for this purpose that day

we currently are here waiting for all that

“but the heavens and the earth,(the natural things we see ) which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens ( sun moon stars the created things we see in the heavens ) shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7-13‬ ‭

he’s promised even though mankind cursed this creation with sin and death he’s made a new one

“I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass. Thou hast heard, see all this; and will not ye declare it?

I have shewed thee new things from this time, even hidden things, and thou didst not know them. They are created now, and not from the beginning; even before the day when thou heardest them not; lest thou shouldest say, Behold, I knew them.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭48:3, 6-7‬ ‭

One is going to end and one is going to be made known but try y are both correct and simultaneous the flesh and spirit I really don’t disagree with most of what your saying really

I was only ever saying heaven is an actual place where peoples spirits go to be with Jesus until the restoration of all things on earth heaven is a place it’s just not of our flesh world

I’m not sure why we went into the rest of this it seems we’re talking about two different ideas of the same subject neither really disagreeing with the other just talking about different things how , why , when ect brings different details

WB: You acknowledge "we're talking about two DIFFERENT ideas of the same thing (subject) but you then say we're not disagreeing on the subject. Do you see the contradiction?

You haven't taken into consideration what Motyer had to say and you haven't addressed the other points I raised which give support to my view that based on Scripture this Planet Earth is to be renewed in that -as described by Motyer - the former CONDITIONS will be no more.

It very much seems that you have a fixed view and which you defend only by repetition of the views you hold.

I'm not in the least interested in 'winning' arguments and only interested in discussing matters to arrive at the Biblical Truth.

ForestGreenCook · Oct 20, 2022

Blik said:

"The Kingdom of God" is one of many names that refer to Christ's church. Due to the disciplinary actions of the church, those that practice sinful actions will not be accepted into the church membership, although some of them will enter heaven, if they are among those that God gave to his Son to die on the cross redeeming them from their sins.

How Many Requirements Exist

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Senior Member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member

Well-known member