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I was pretty sure in christianity it was Thomas Aquinas who started the push away - saying that nature itself was a "book" of the Bible, which it is not - this led to evidential arguments - which evidence is interpreted by a person's worldview - if we look back in history, at ideas - we have to do hermeneutics - had to read a book on siphilis by Ludwig Fleck - On the Genesis of Scientific Fact = strange strange read
Then why do you hold C.S. Lewis in high regard? Examine his writings and you'll see he wrestled with evolution, neither fully denying it or affirming it. What he does affirm is that it wasn't a purposeless process.
Don't take me wrong either please, I'm not a biological evolutionist (the study of nature and modern science done right has certainly ruled out the possibility of life's development over millions/billions of years). But a fined tuned universe with the goal of sustaining life on Earth tells a different story, in which by no means contradicts the bible.
Reasons To Believe : Biblical Evidence for an Old Earth
Reasons To Believe : Scientific Evidence for an Old Earth
Reasons To Believe : The Sixth Creation Day: Biblical Support for Old-Earth Creationism
The Creation Story: How Old Is the Earth? | Christian Research Institute
Creation Science, About Old Earth Ministries
Don't take me wrong either please, I'm not a biological evolutionist (the study of nature and modern science done right has certainly ruled out the possibility of life's development over millions/billions of years). But a fined tuned universe with the goal of sustaining life on Earth tells a different story, in which by no means contradicts the bible.
Reasons To Believe : Biblical Evidence for an Old Earth
Reasons To Believe : Scientific Evidence for an Old Earth
Reasons To Believe : The Sixth Creation Day: Biblical Support for Old-Earth Creationism
The Creation Story: How Old Is the Earth? | Christian Research Institute
Creation Science, About Old Earth Ministries
F
I have been questioned about my training in science. I want all to know that I have a science degree in Trickonometry. Plus, I have more degrees than a thermometer. I started school in the second grade and ended up in the first. I was voted the most popular boy in my senior year of high school...5 years in a row.
The age of the Earth can be learned from Wikipedia. Radiometric dating is used to find how old the oldest things on Earth are, and physical impossibilities limit how old it could be. I know that carbon dating is distrusted because of certain examples which I'll discuss for a moment below, but carbon dating can only be used to date up to 25,000 years... there are several radioactive clocks that measure longer distances back in time, and there aren't any known counter-examples that demonstrate that they are anything less than as accurate as scientists believe them to be.
However, carbon dating has the common counter-example of a still-living mollusk that is over 25,000 years old. If researched, you could find out that scientists know about such problems with carbon dating and correct for them. As a child, I remember being told about examples like this in Sunday School without any disclaimer about other radioactive clocks that remained unchallenged or any possible reasons for why carbon dating might not always be accurate (even though it is in more than 99% of cases, as shown by converging agreements in dating by separate labs). Nor did fellow Christians ever mention that carbon-dating is used in part to conclude the age of biblical scrolls and sites that are used to verify the historicity of the bible... clearly bias is the reason that one might think carbon dating is unreliable in one instance but not the other.
And that's just Earth. If you want to believe that the universe is young, you have to contend with more evidence. We can see the light from stars that are billions of light-years away, and that implies that the light from those stars has had billions of years to travel the distance to us. You could always just assume that the rules of physics were different at one time -- light traveled faster in the past or radioactive decay was faster -- but just because something is possible doesn't make it probable. Unless we have reason to assume otherwise, patterns that seem linear and unchanging now are likely to have always been that way.
However, carbon dating has the common counter-example of a still-living mollusk that is over 25,000 years old. If researched, you could find out that scientists know about such problems with carbon dating and correct for them. As a child, I remember being told about examples like this in Sunday School without any disclaimer about other radioactive clocks that remained unchallenged or any possible reasons for why carbon dating might not always be accurate (even though it is in more than 99% of cases, as shown by converging agreements in dating by separate labs). Nor did fellow Christians ever mention that carbon-dating is used in part to conclude the age of biblical scrolls and sites that are used to verify the historicity of the bible... clearly bias is the reason that one might think carbon dating is unreliable in one instance but not the other.
And that's just Earth. If you want to believe that the universe is young, you have to contend with more evidence. We can see the light from stars that are billions of light-years away, and that implies that the light from those stars has had billions of years to travel the distance to us. You could always just assume that the rules of physics were different at one time -- light traveled faster in the past or radioactive decay was faster -- but just because something is possible doesn't make it probable. Unless we have reason to assume otherwise, patterns that seem linear and unchanging now are likely to have always been that way.
Did you see where recently two or three scientists by analogy of graphs made concerning the rate of decay of (cant think of the name Radio Carbon 13?) and that it's rate of decay is altered by solar bursts from the sun which is throwing a monkey wrench into 2 or 3 laws of physics? Not arguing with you, just wondered if you had seen that?
I used to think that Evolution and Creation went hand in hand, and didn't conflict with one another. I'll spare you my rationalizations for all of that, because I was wrong.
I watched this set of videos: YahTube: Creation Science Evangelism beginning with, ironically, "Age of the Earth." It literally changed my views on this matter.
Aside from Dr. Hovind's information, when we understand the prophetic significance of the 7 day Sabbath Cycle, and the connection of all of it to the "Jewish" Feast calendar, it makes perfect sense that the earth is finishing up or has finished up it's "6th day" and we are moving into the Seventh Millenium (7th day) rest of Shabat.
I think the Earth is exactly as old as the Word says it is. Either you believe the Bible is true, or you don't. If you don't, what are you doing following it?
I watched this set of videos: YahTube: Creation Science Evangelism beginning with, ironically, "Age of the Earth." It literally changed my views on this matter.
Aside from Dr. Hovind's information, when we understand the prophetic significance of the 7 day Sabbath Cycle, and the connection of all of it to the "Jewish" Feast calendar, it makes perfect sense that the earth is finishing up or has finished up it's "6th day" and we are moving into the Seventh Millenium (7th day) rest of Shabat.
I think the Earth is exactly as old as the Word says it is. Either you believe the Bible is true, or you don't. If you don't, what are you doing following it?
If you were to open your mind, why, do you suppose, that some people believe the Bible has essential truths, yet believe there are errors in it? Is there room for that kind of logic? When we live in a day of fact, and the Bible is not about fact (that can be proven or disproven) but about faith (the unseen, what can't be proven or disproven).
I can sympathize, and understand these people. And I'm certainly not going to call them "fools" or "calling God a liar" (because that's not my place anyway) because when you get enough Christians gaining up on an unorthodox one, what usually happens is that they shrink away from the faith and forsake Christ. Did you know that most atheists grew up in Christian homes, and went to church? They became the way they are because they had questions that rubbed these churches the wrong way, and the response hurt the authenticity of the faith in their eyes. Wouldn't it be better that someone is trying to follow Christ and live morally believing the Bible has flaws than for them to not be following at all - or to put it another way, was not trying in any way to improve themselves, get closer to God and be productive, civil members of society?
I'm not saying that I'm in company with them. But I'm not dogmatically tied to an inerrant idea of Scripture either. My mind is open, and I'll listen to both sides. Will I make up my mind before I die? I don't know. But the people with "loose" interpretations of Scripture were usually more loving and compassionate than the more "conservative" ones - whether that could serve as evidence of the validity of that stance, I'm not sure. I'm not applying labels absolutely - there are those who hold to a strict interpretation who are open to hearing other views, and those who are "open" who are really only open about their own ideas. But I digress.
Just adding this -
Interesting that atheists must be more open-minded than Christians to know more about other religions, and in this link is a small reference to what I was talking about atheists growing up in Christian homes:
Survey: Atheists, Agnostics Know More About Religion Than Religious : The Two-Way : NPR
I can sympathize, and understand these people. And I'm certainly not going to call them "fools" or "calling God a liar" (because that's not my place anyway) because when you get enough Christians gaining up on an unorthodox one, what usually happens is that they shrink away from the faith and forsake Christ. Did you know that most atheists grew up in Christian homes, and went to church? They became the way they are because they had questions that rubbed these churches the wrong way, and the response hurt the authenticity of the faith in their eyes. Wouldn't it be better that someone is trying to follow Christ and live morally believing the Bible has flaws than for them to not be following at all - or to put it another way, was not trying in any way to improve themselves, get closer to God and be productive, civil members of society?
I'm not saying that I'm in company with them. But I'm not dogmatically tied to an inerrant idea of Scripture either. My mind is open, and I'll listen to both sides. Will I make up my mind before I die? I don't know. But the people with "loose" interpretations of Scripture were usually more loving and compassionate than the more "conservative" ones - whether that could serve as evidence of the validity of that stance, I'm not sure. I'm not applying labels absolutely - there are those who hold to a strict interpretation who are open to hearing other views, and those who are "open" who are really only open about their own ideas. But I digress.
Just adding this -
Interesting that atheists must be more open-minded than Christians to know more about other religions, and in this link is a small reference to what I was talking about atheists growing up in Christian homes:
Survey: Atheists, Agnostics Know More About Religion Than Religious : The Two-Way : NPR
The earth is around 6,500 years old. Scientist are measuring by earth's sediments in they believe it is the accurate way to measure. But they doesn't believe in the deluge that the earth crust has collapsed into the water layer that was beneath the crust that pushes the water upward and flooded the surface of the earth. Then the core of the earth started to grow rapidly in which pushing the collapsed crust to resurface.
I used to think the way you do. Now I have learned I was wrong about that, as well.
I have always asked Atheists if they have ever read the bible. Most of them say yes. Of course. When I get to probing into that, I find out their concept of reading the bible is nearly always lacking. For instance, they learned some of the NT in church over a year or two (usually much less), or they read a few passages that someone else pointed them to. In most cases it was through someone else they said they had read the bible (the media, a preacher, etc.) Only one person in all the years I've asked this question (10+ years) had any REAL knowledge of the bible, and because of their exposure to the Word, were a deist and not, in fact, atheist. , I agree that most Atheists know more about other religions than the Bible believers do. That is not always true, though.
I experienced a crisis in my faith in my 20's. I threw away all that I thought I knew about belief, and set about finding the real truth. Again and again, through the many religions and their literature I researched, the only one that was always, always true, no matter what, was the Scriptures. Not every truth there ever was has been written is in the word, but everything in the word is true.
According to some research I've done recently, this passage describes the believers (Church) of today:
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."
Either you believe the words are true, or you don't. He'd rather have us hot or cold. Messiah says so out of his own mouth. The Word existed from the beginning:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Either you believe the word, or you don't. Doubt is normal and fine, but obedience in belief must come first for truth to be revealed.
Deu 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. (Followed by whole slew of blessings)
I have always asked Atheists if they have ever read the bible. Most of them say yes. Of course. When I get to probing into that, I find out their concept of reading the bible is nearly always lacking. For instance, they learned some of the NT in church over a year or two (usually much less), or they read a few passages that someone else pointed them to. In most cases it was through someone else they said they had read the bible (the media, a preacher, etc.) Only one person in all the years I've asked this question (10+ years) had any REAL knowledge of the bible, and because of their exposure to the Word, were a deist and not, in fact, atheist. , I agree that most Atheists know more about other religions than the Bible believers do. That is not always true, though.
I experienced a crisis in my faith in my 20's. I threw away all that I thought I knew about belief, and set about finding the real truth. Again and again, through the many religions and their literature I researched, the only one that was always, always true, no matter what, was the Scriptures. Not every truth there ever was has been written is in the word, but everything in the word is true.
According to some research I've done recently, this passage describes the believers (Church) of today:
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."
Either you believe the words are true, or you don't. He'd rather have us hot or cold. Messiah says so out of his own mouth. The Word existed from the beginning:
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Either you believe the word, or you don't. Doubt is normal and fine, but obedience in belief must come first for truth to be revealed.
Deu 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. (Followed by whole slew of blessings)
I appreciate your heartfelt testimony, and I have a lot more respect for someone with your conviction who have actually researched things, instead of just accepting what the pastor said, or taking the Bible at face value.
And I respect that you have provided Scripture for justification. However, in context, it is talking about works - not someone's stock or amount of belief in an ancient text or God's word, whatever that may be.
And I respect that you have provided Scripture for justification. However, in context, it is talking about works - not someone's stock or amount of belief in an ancient text or God's word, whatever that may be.
Works will never save us. Only the Sacrifice of Messiah can do that. I failed to add that this represented my opinion, based on my scriptural research. I know that anyone can do this research now. The information is everywhere. 
It feels so good to know with complete confidence that every word is true. It's true!! Such a blessed, blessed gift we've been given to see that TRUTH!!
I'm a little passionate (crazy) about it. I don't mean to come off all uppity about it.
It feels so good to know with complete confidence that every word is true. It's true!! Such a blessed, blessed gift we've been given to see that TRUTH!! I'm a little passionate (crazy) about it.
I don't mean to come off all uppity about it.