How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

[Phoneman-777]

God is not confused and neither are the Saints who are in Heaven.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them.
Revelation ch7

FULL Awareness and individual identity in Heaven of the Saints who died and went to Heaven.

Nope, you're reading about saints who went to heaven after the Resurrection of the Just.

Down here, we have the New Orleans Saints, and believe it or not, the iconic theme song of this football team that calls the wickedest, voodoo celebrating, RCC infested town their home from the very beginning in the 1960s has been "When the Saints Go Marching In", a Protestant Christian song, of all things.

"Oh, when the Saints;​

Go marching in.​

Oh, when the Saints go marching in...​

​

Oh, how I want to be in that number...​

When the Saints go marching in."​

See how old time Christianity taught what you think is heresy: that the Saints didn't march into heaven one by one at death? They knew we'd all be marching in together in one grand, redeemed procession after the Resurrection of the Just, as Scripture teaches.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Where did JESUS go when HE breathed his last breath?

His Spirit went up to God (Luke 23:46 KJV), His body was laid in the tomb (Luke 23:53 KJV), and His Soul was "not left in hell" aka "the place of the dead" or "grave" (Acts 2:31 KJV), a euphemism here for death, as Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly teaches that the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath/Spirit of Life and must cease to exist at the dissolution of the same.

See? Evidence that the Spirit is not the Soul and the Soul is not the Spirit, just as Hebrews 4:12 KJV teaches: His Spirit went up but His Soul went down - His divine nature was unaffected by death, but His human nature ceased to be...until early Sunday morning.

 

[1ofthem]

Re-start your device and see if that helps. Also if you have an internet router and modem, unplug and restart those too.

Thanks EW...I'll try that. I was using Chrome and now it won't even log on to CC. I'm Microsoft edge now but will try restarting the computer and router to see if it fixes it.

 

[1ofthem]

Hi my dear,

You're welcome--I need to learn to summarize, but as Mark Twain said, "I wrote a longer letter, because I didn't have time to make it shorter."PS PM me when you do.

No, you don't need to summarize. I'm glad you are thorough. Just having some issues with getting on this site. I'll PM you later.

 

[1ofthem]

Nope, you're reading about saints who went to heaven after the Resurrection of the Just.

Down here, we have the New Orleans Saints, and believe it or not, the iconic theme song of this football team that calls the wickedest, voodoo celebrating, RCC infested town their home from the very beginning in the 1960s has been "When the Saints Go Marching In", a Protestant Christian song, of all things.

"Oh, when the Saints;​

Go marching in.​

Oh, when the Saints go marching in...​

​

Oh, how I want to be in that number...​

When the Saints go marching in."​

See how old time Christianity taught what you think is heresy: that the Saints didn't march into heaven one by one at death? They knew we'd all be marching in together in one grand, redeemed procession after the Resurrection of the Just, as Scripture teaches.

Like the song. And yeah, it is odd how it is being used. I think the Hillbilly version of it is " There Ain't No Grave Gonna Hold My Body Down." Southern Pentecostal music in its purest form that unfortunately influenced the likes of Elvis Presley and rock music.

I've always liked "There Ain't No Grave," but whether it is all scriptural...IDK for sure.

You all can decide.

This thread has a little of this and a little of that so here's some entertainment to go with the rest of it...lol

 

[Absolutely]

Laura, it will not let me reply to you for some reason.

Every time I hit reply it says bad request... I don't know what that is all about... lol

Anyhow...Hi and thanks for the info I've not had a chance to review it all yet but will get back to you when I do.


Thanks again

The page expired
Just refresh the page.

 

[DavidTree]

His Spirit went up to God (Luke 23:46 KJV), His body was laid in the tomb (Luke 23:53 KJV), and His Soul was "not left in hell" aka "the place of the dead" or "grave" (Acts 2:31 KJV), a euphemism here for death, as Genesis 2:7 KJV plainly teaches that the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath/Spirit of Life and must cease to exist at the dissolution of the same.

See? Evidence that the Spirit is not the Soul and the Soul is not the Spirit, just as Hebrews 4:12 KJV teaches: His Spirit went up but His Soul went down - His divine nature was unaffected by death, but His human nature ceased to be...until early Sunday morning.

Where His Spirit went so did His Soul and HE first went to preach to the spirits in prison = ETERNAL LIFE NEVER DIES

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

 

[Katia]

No one taught a pre-trib rapture until John Darby, and Anglican preacher, in the mid 1800s. So the teaching is relatively new. Now, being new does not necessarily mean a teaching is defunct: while God never changes, He reveals knowledge and understanding in a progressive manner. Things that we have not contemplated before, suddenly come alive to us in the scriptures. So, while the ideas are new to us, they were always established in the mind of God.

But the manner is which things are "revealed" should be examined. So let's look at the manner in which the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture came to be a Baptist staple.

Dwight Young, professor emeritus at Brandeis University of Near Eastern and Judaic Studies, personally corresponded with a friend of mine several years ago. My friend was a young lawyer ( as an aside, had George Bush Senior been elected for a second term, there is a good possibility that my friend would have been chosen as a state supreme court judge.) Dwight was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary at the same time Hal Lindsey studied there, so this is more than 50 years ago or so. They were graduate students.

Dwight said the professors were discussing Darbyism, and whether or not it was a valid theology. This graduate student, Hal Lindsey, wrote a master’s thesis on the subject of this form of dispensationalism and the rapture. He later turned that thesis into a book called The Late Great Planet Earth. Now some of you may not know about this book, but it was a runaway bestseller. It made a lot of money. According to Dwight, that is where the Baptists made the switch. They saw that there was a market for this doctrine, and they ran with it. Dwight later moved up to and was a professor of biblical studies, biblical languages at Brandeis University, from which he retired, and he was in a state of retirement when my friend met him. So, 50 years from the writing of a master's thesis, the teaching is so entrenched in the Baptist circles you would think it was the gospel.

Historically, nobody ever thought of this doctrine before Darby. But once he popularized it in the context of dispensationalism, meaning things wrap up within blocks of time, people began to embrace it because they did not have to trust the Holy Spirit. If you are going to have any measure of understanding of prophetic Scripture, the end from the beginning and where we are at this point in time, you are going to have to walk in the Spirit. He is the One who wrote the Book; He is the One who is perfectly capable of interpreting it. And the folly of logic and reason and man-made constructs, such as dispensationalism, will lead you to increasing folly, such as the rapture.

God knows the end from the beginning, and the greatest moment of the Body of Christ is in the midst of the darkness in Revelation. That darkness has no potential to blunt our display of the glory of God, the radiance of God’s glory, or to represent Him exactly. It has no ability to influence that at all. This is the time for the glory of what God has been doing, when He established the heavens and the earth for the purpose of establishing a corporate man in creation so that He might be seen in creation as who He is. He is on a path wherein not only will He show who He is in all of His glory through the corporate body, but He will bring the enemy to judgment as well.

Grace and Peace,

Aaron56

I was first taught Pre-Trib doctrine, but in the last decade have decided that we do not know it is truth.

 

[DavidTree]

I was first taught Pre-Trib doctrine, but in the last decade have decided that we do not know it is truth.

Hi Katia, i also was taught 'pre-trib' rapture for years until i searched the Scripture for Truth.

 

[Charlie24]

Hi Katia, i also was taught 'pre-trib' rapture for years until i searched the Scripture for Truth.

I told you before David, the #1 mistake of the post-trib view is failing to recognize Israel in scripture. The post-trib view sees the Church as having taken the place of Israel, this is a huge mistake of interpreting scripture and leads to failing to recognize Israel in the plan of God.

When you post-tribbers come to realize that "God has not cast away Israel" and "all Israel shall be saved," then you will begin to see the plan of God for Israel and that the True Church is not involved in His plan to bring Israel to Christ in the end.

 

[ewq1938]

I told you before David, the #1 mistake of the post-trib view is failing to recognize Israel in scripture. The post-trib view sees the Church as having taken the place of Israel, this is a huge mistake of interpreting scripture and leads to failing to recognize Israel in the plan of God.

When you post-tribbers come to realize that "God has not cast away Israel" and "all Israel shall be saved," then you will begin to see the plan of God for Israel and that the True Church is not involved in His plan to bring Israel to Christ in the end.

That has nothing to do with pre-trib getting timing of rapture wrong.

 

[Charlie24]

That has nothing to do with pre-trib getting timing of rapture wrong.

What it proves is that one resurrection in the end will not fulfill scripture! What you are failing to see is that God deals separately with the Church and Israel.

 

[ewq1938]

What it proves is that one resurrection in the end will not fulfill scripture! What you are failing to see is that God deals separately with the Church and Israel.

The church is believing Israel with believing gentiles. HE will deal with them separately from those who do not believe. Also, there is one resurrection before the thousand years and one resurrection after the thousand years.

The first one is for the saved, the last one is for the unsaved. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" shows that some of the dead lived again with the rest having to wait.

 

[DavidTree]

I told you before David, the #1 mistake of the post-trib view is failing to recognize Israel in scripture. The post-trib view sees the Church as having taken the place of Israel, this is a huge mistake of interpreting scripture and leads to failing to recognize Israel in the plan of God.

When you post-tribbers come to realize that "God has not cast away Israel" and "all Israel shall be saved," then you will begin to see the plan of God for Israel and that the True Church is not involved in His plan to bring Israel to Christ in the end.

God says 'pre-trib' rapture is a lie and HE warns everyone to repent so that you are not held accountable for this Lie.

#1. We are commanded by the LORD to only believe every word that comes out of the Mouth of God - Mark 4:4
Jesus spoke this word back at satan, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Mark 4:3-4
Pre-trib rapture NEVER came out of the Mouth of God - not once, not ever, from Genesis to Revelation.
It is written: "Get behind JESUS satan for you care not for the things of God but of men".

#2. The LORD says HE is coming after the Tribulation - Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

#3. The earthbound, in sin and rebellion against God nation of Israel will not be restored until His Second Coming.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."
Matthew 23:37-39

It is written:
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

It is written: "I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book."
Revelation 22:18-19

Turn your heart to the Fear of God and HE will Bless you OR remain as you are and suffer the consequences.

 

[Charlie24]

The church is believing Israel with believing gentiles. HE will deal with them separately from those who do not believe. Also, there is one resurrection before the thousand years and one resurrection after the thousand years.

The first one is for the saved, the last one is for the unsaved. "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" shows that some of the dead lived again with the rest having to wait.

The "rest of the dead that lived not again until the 1000 years were finished" are the unsaved of all time waiting for the White Throne Judgment.

The church saints are of "the natural vine (Israel)" and "the grafted vine (the Gentiles).

But Israel as a nation is in unbelief, has been for centuries. The concentration of the great tribulation is to bring them to Christ.

The Gentiles have had to date 2000 years to come to Christ with Israel remaining in unbelief. Very few Jews have come to Christ in this period of time. The great tribulation will bring all of them to Christ. As Paul said, all Israel shall be saved.

It's plain to see God is dealing with the Church differently than Israel, even though a few Jews are coming to Christ and are in the true Church.

 

[Charlie24]

God says 'pre-trib' rapture is a lie and HE warns everyone to repent so that you are not held accountable for this Lie.

#1. We are commanded by the LORD to only believe every word that comes out of the Mouth of God - Mark 4:4
Jesus spoke this word back at satan, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Mark 4:3-4
Pre-trib rapture NEVER came out of the Mouth of God - not once, not ever, from Genesis to Revelation.
It is written: "Get behind JESUS satan for you care not for the things of God but of men".

#2. The LORD says HE is coming after the Tribulation - Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

#3. The earthbound, in sin and rebellion against God nation of Israel will not be restored until His Second Coming.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate.
For I tell you that you will not see Me again until you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."
Matthew 23:37-39

It is written:
Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

It is written: "I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book."
Revelation 22:18-19

Turn your heart to the Fear of God and HE will Bless you OR remain as you are and suffer the consequences.

What you have said is worthless to this conversation, David!

Why don't you show us how the post-trib view is correct (that's what I will enjoy seeing) instead of calling us liars?

 

[DavidTree]

What you have said is worthless to this conversation, David!

Why don't you show us how the post-trib view is correct (that's what I will enjoy seeing) instead of calling us liars?

i have not called you a liar.

Read the Scriptures i posted and learn from them so you do not end up being judged for adding to God's words.

This is not a game - God is serious about His Word and you need the Fear of God so that you can be protected.

The Commandment is CLEAR = Do not add to God's words or take away from them.

The LORD came to save sinners like myself and HE is full of Mercy and Truth = avail yourself to His Mercy and Truth.

But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
John ch17

I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it,
and because no lie comes from the truth.
1 John 2:21

 

[Charlie24]

i have not called you a liar.

Read the Scriptures i posted and learn from them so you do not end up being judged for adding to God's words.

This is not a game - God is serious about His Word and you need the Fear of God so that you can be protected.

The Commandment is CLEAR = Do not add to God's words or take away from them.

The LORD came to save sinners like myself and HE is full of Mercy and Truth = avail yourself to His Mercy and Truth.

But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
John ch17

I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it,
and because no lie comes from the truth.
1 John 2:21

You have without a doubt referred to pre-trib believers as liars! You can't deny that!

But that is not important, what is important is that you do what I have done several times, explain your view of the post-trib account.

None of you have done this, what you like to do is let us explain the pre-trib view then fire back with your difference in scripture interpretation.

Let's try this David, present your account and let's see if it holds water. Then we can begin to see which account is closer to the truth!

 

[Phoneman-777]

Where His Spirit went so did His Soul

Friend, I mean no offense, but it's so frustrating dealing with such out of whack theology. You claim the Soul and Spirit went to the same place, but the Bible testifies Jesus' Spirit went UP (Luke 23:46 KJV) to the Father's hands, but His Soul went DOWN (Acts 2:27 KJV) to Hades aka "the place of the dead" aka "the grave". Got it, friend? The Soul and the Spirit are not the same thing, as Hebrews 4:12 KJV proves by testifying the Spirit can be divided from the Soul as assuredly as bone marrow can be divided from skeletal joints, which is a whole comprised of parts consisting of bone, marrow, cartilage, etc., which things are not the same.

and HE first went to preach to the spirits in prison = ETERNAL LIFE NEVER DIES

The "spirits in prison" to which the Spirit of Jesus preached refers to the Antediluvians - sinners bound in the "prison house of sin" with which God's (Jesus') Spirit strove before the Flood, and Peter is simply informing us that it's the same Spirit that raised Jesus up from the dead. Again, a "spirit" is not a translucent carbon copy of a person minus the flesh that flies off at a person's death to either stroll in heaven or burn in hell - it is exactly what Genesis 2:7 KJV says: the thing issued forth from God to give life and returns unto God at death.

 

[Runningman]

A friend warned me not to come to this forum.
He said there is no discussion, only people preaching what they believe.
A lot of shouting, judging, misuse of Scripture, and very little truth and understanding.
I have not read all the post, but enough that I agree with him.
In Luke, when Jesus sent the 12 out, and again when He sent the 70 out, He instructed them to only stay and teach those who would listen. Those who would not, they were to not waste time on them.
There is a lot of time wasted here that could be better spent.
I have learned over the years that teaching takes time and can not be accomplished when everyone is speaking at the same time.
I have also learned that changing someone's mind on this subject is almost impossible.
Only when a person begins to question what he has been taught and believes will he seek the truth.
I was taught and believe in the imminent, pre-tribulation rapture.
As I began to study, I soon began to doubt what I believed. When I asked those older and wiser, their answers did not satisfy. The Scripture they used was misused, taken out of context, and had their own interpretation placed on it.
Through much prayer and study, I came to the correct understanding.
The anti-christ will come out of Islam.
He will have 1290 days to reign until Jesus comes and the resurrection of all whose name is in the book of life.
There will be no third temple. No 7 year peace treaty with Israel. No pre-tribulation rapture of the church.
I will not debate you. I will not discuss this with you. I will not try to teach you the truth in the atmosphere that is present here. No one will listen. No reason to waste my time.
Just stating what I believe.
This is my first and last post on the subject.

The timing of the arrival of Jesus, whether pre or post trib, does have a profound impact on the susceptibility to deception that people have. When pre-tribbers are looking for Christ to come before the tribulation, actually they'll get the anti-Christ who will persecute and kill all of those Christians who allegedly rejected Christ. Actually, that will be the anti-Christ deceiving the world.

As the true Christians are being persecuted and martyred, the pre-tribbers will think this passage is coming to pass:

2 Thessalonians 1:5-8
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

When in reality, this passage will be coming to pass:

Revelation 13:7-10
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

If people aren't really sure what the devil is up to, attempting to counterfeit all of the legitimate and good things that God will do, then they will fall for these deceptions and be an accessory to the martyrdom of their previous brothers and sisters.

All of that being said, Islam does have it's own eschatology. To understand Islamic eschatology, just reverse it from Christianity. In Christianity the anti-Christ comes then Jesus comes. In Islam, Jesus comes to first then afterwards the anti-Christ.

As you can see, by the time Jesus actually comes the Islamic world will have rejected Him, maybe half of the Christian world will have rejected Him, and probably most of the secular world will have rejected Him. These leaves a relatively small group of people who will actually know who Jesus is according to the scriptures.