How to Spot a Legalist

[eternally-gratefull]

There's a lot of scriptures on this issue that seemingly contradict, as this thread has shown. But I think they can easily be made to fit together if you look at it this way:

1. one is not saved by works

2. the quality of your works is a reliable indicator of your salvation status

thats fine

As long as you stop there, and do not go onto say that if that quality of works stop. or gets less. then your salvation status is in question, even though at one time, it was never in question.

There is where legalism takes its ugly head and distorts the truth and makes works a God thing, and turns it into a man thing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Is not salvation conditional according to our response to God's calling through Christ?

You mean do we respond to God by in faith receiving his offer of forgiveness?

IN which case he empowers us to work?

why of course.

But when you say that can be lost. it turns into legalism and self righteousness, WHich GOD HATES

 

[weakness]

You mean do we respond to God by in faith receiving his offer of forgiveness?

IN which case he empowers us to work?

why of course.

But when you say that can be lost. it turns into legalism and self righteousness, WHich GOD HATES[/QUOTE/ The Bible says we can be lost. The last state is worse than the first because you have more knowledge. Saying we can turn away from God does noT necessarily lead to legalism and self righteousness! Maybe just selfishness or what is right in our own eyes. Or maybe the love of the world, or pride of life, or the lust of the flesh. Covetousness, which is idolatry, Is a much more common reason to turn from God in this nation that declares liberty but are servants of corruption. We control the world through our military might. I was reading that we have over 700 military bases in the world. He will honor the God of forces. We live at a pay grade we had in the mid sixties. any way.Being found in the form of God .He thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but took upon him the form of a servant. As per being born again, are we beginning to be found in the form of God? Do you think it robbery to start to be one of God's children? And think and do like Jesus? Are you willing to be a servant or a legalist and self righteous? Jesus didn't just walk around head in the clouds, trusting God's grace. He said what I see the father do I do. Go be a martyr and shew me your self righteousness. Many of these senseless discussions are because we don't do the things that the Spirit tells us. We make excuse to die to the flesh and then make up doctrinal nonsense to justify our unfruitful lives. When we don't see the miracles and power of God ,we say that went away with the apostles. When God calls you to lay it all down, obey him and see what happens. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Bible says we can be lost. The last state is worse than the first because you have more knowledge.

No, The bible says there are people in the church, Acting like Christians, Professing to be Christians, talking like a CHristian. Who have not yet taken that one step of faith.

They can fall away (because their foundation is not grounded in Christ) and to them, because they had the truth of salvation in their hands and let it slip away before they grabbed it and made it theirs. it will be worse. than if they never walked in it before.

How many times did the apostles say, If you have faith, If you are his children, If you are not false children children. Test your faith make sure it is real. not fake. not a mere believe as James puts it.

Many walk in our own churches who are not saved, the warning is for them also.

I can say my foundation is in christ until I am blue in the face. and roll on the floor like a baby saying how dare you call me a liar, what I say is trust, I trust God not self. ANd your a liar for saying I trust self.

But if I claim my foundation can crumble if I do not do something (whatever that something is) then my foundation is not in Christ, but in myself not doing what can cause that foundation to crumble.

The jews foundation was the law

The catholics foundation is the church and all the sacraments

Many legalists foundation is just a few small religious works (ie water baptism) and a continued faith and living for God.

but a legalist is a legalist all the same

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No, The bible says there are people in the church, Acting like Christians, Professing to be Christians, talking like a CHristian. Who have not yet taken that one step of faith.

They can fall away (because their foundation is not grounded in Christ) and to them, because they had the truth of salvation in their hands and let it slip away before they grabbed it and made it theirs. it will be worse. than if they never walked in it before.

How many times did the apostles say, If you have faith, If you are his children, If you are not false children children. Test your faith make sure it is real. not fake. not a mere believe as James puts it.

Many walk in our own churches who are not saved, the warning is for them also.

I can say my foundation is in christ until I am blue in the face. and roll on the floor like a baby saying how dare you call me a liar, what I say is trust, I trust God not self. ANd your a liar for saying I trust self.

But if I claim my foundation can crumble if I do not do something (whatever that something is) then my foundation is not in Christ, but in myself not doing what can cause that foundation to crumble.

The jews foundation was the law

The catholics foundation is the church and all the sacraments

Many legalists foundation is just a few small religious works (ie water baptism) and a continued faith and living for God.

but a legalist is a legalist all the same

The parable of the sower witnesses against your claim that faith never takes root in some who are lost. The third group of that parable, seed sown amongst weeds, very definitely takes root (has faith), but is overcome by the world and doesn't produce fruit. The group you described as letting the truth slip away is the first group of seed sown on rocky path.

Also, your admonition to test ourselves to see if our faith is real is self-contradictory because on one hand you say we can't do anything to affect our salvation (work), yet on the other hand you say make sure your faith is real, and if it's not it's implied that we have to do something to make it real, which is work.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The parable of the sower witnesses against your claim that faith never takes root in some who are lost. The third group of that parable, seed sown amongst weeds, very definitely takes root (has faith), but is overcome by the world and doesn't produce fruit. The group you described as letting the truth slip away is the first group of seed sown on rocky path.

um, they never produced fruit, because they were never saved, their root was not in solid ground (christ) but was week, because they loved the things of this world.

Nice try though.

Also, your admonition to test ourselves to see if our faith is real is self-contradictory because on one hand you say we can't do anything to affect our salvation (work), yet on the other hand you say make sure your faith is real, and if it's not it's implied that we have to do something to make it real, which is work.

No. I am saying what james said, If I myself claim I have faith, but I have no work, is my faith real.

If I have a changed life, I do not need to test my faith now do I?

James spoke to hearers. not doers..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

um, they never produced fruit, because they were never saved, their root was not in solid ground (christ) but was week, because they loved the things of this world.

Nice try though.



No. I am saying what james said, If I myself claim I have faith, but I have no work, is my faith real.

If I have a changed life, I do not need to test my faith now do I?

James spoke to hearers. not doers..

You are arguing from opinion. You have no idea if they were saved or not; that is merely your opinion. And you contradict what was written because the parable says that the first two groups definitely did take root (only the first didn't), but you say they didn't.

Here's another one for you.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.” (Hebrews 6:4–8) ​

One cannot be a partaker of the holy spirit and become enlightened unless (s)he is born into the spirit. The world does not see the the spirit, much less receive him. So I don't know what your definition of saved is, but being born into the spirit is the scriptural definition of being saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are arguing from opinion. You have no idea if they were saved or not;

They did not produce fruit, (they had no faith) their faith was dead.

that is merely your opinion. And you contradict what was written because the parable says that the first two groups definitely did take root (only the first didn't), but you say they didn't.

So the bible contradicts, and eternal life is not eternal?? Your not making any sense, the bible cannot contradict but it can..

Maybe your interpretation causes the contradiction.

Here's another one for you.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.” (Hebrews 6:4–8)
​

One cannot be a partaker of the holy spirit and become enlightened unless (s)he is born into the spirit. The world does not see the the spirit, much less receive him. So I don't know what your definition of saved is, but being born into the spirit is the scriptural definition of being saved.

One can not be saved and fall away (like mosaic law states they can, which is what hebrews was arguing against)

And even if they could fall away, they could never be renewed to repentance.

It is impossible if (maybe they can maybe they cant) they fall away, To renew them.

The context is not if one can fall away, the context is if they could fall away, they can;t get saved again. It is not like mosaic law. where A priest goes, gives a sacrifice, and they are forgiven again.


So either way, Mosaic law is wrong, why would you go back to that?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

One can not be saved and fall away ...

This is just your opinion, which many scriptures that you ignore refute. When are you going to be persuaded by what scripture actually says instead of trying to conform the world and scripture to your opinion?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is just your opinion, which many scriptures that you ignore refute. When are you going to be persuaded by what scripture actually says instead of trying to conform the world and scripture to your opinion?

No. thats eternal life
Thats the seal of the psirit
Thats the promise of God.

You want to earn salvation. Good luck, Count me out of your legalism. I want nothing to do with it.

 

[FreeNChrist]

This is just your opinion, which many scriptures that you ignore refute. When are you going to be persuaded by what scripture actually says instead of trying to conform the world and scripture to your opinion?

What kind of life does God tell us He we have in Christ? Eternal life or temporal life?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What kind of life does God tell us He we have in Christ? Eternal life or temporal life?

Eternal life, of course. However, we are not fully born yet. We are conceived of the spirit, but we are not born into immortality yet. We are like fetuses in the womb who have received a life, but have not yet been born into the world. Many things at that stage can and do go wrong, e.g., stillbirths, miscarriages. They had life, but they died. Same applies to our walk in Christ. There are many perils along the way that can quench our spirit if we do not fight the fight of faith until the end.

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.” 1 Timothy 6:12

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:7​

If salvation was automatic with no effort on our part, why did Paul say fight? Fighting is work.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Eternal life, of course. However, we are not fully born yet. We are conceived of the spirit, but we are not born into immortality yet. We are like fetuses in the womb who have received a life, but have not yet been born into the world. Many things at that stage can and do go wrong, e.g., stillbirths, miscarriages. They had life, but they died. Same applies to our walk in Christ. There are many perils along the way that can quench our spirit if we do not fight the fight of faith until the end.

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.” 1 Timothy 6:12

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:7​

If salvation was automatic with no effort on our part, why did Paul say fight? Fighting is work.

No. We have eternal life because we have Jesus Christ in whom is eternal life.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

No. We have eternal life because we have Jesus Christ in whom is eternal life.

Yeah, so how does that reflect on what I said? We have eternal life, but we are not immortal yet. A fetus has natural life, but hasn't been born yet. Simple.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Yeah, so how does that reflect on what I said? We have eternal life, but we are not immortal yet. A fetus has natural life, but hasn't been born yet. Simple.

How does what you say reflect on the reality that we have eternal life in Christ?

 

[Ariel82]

Eternal life, of course. However, we are not fully born yet. We are conceived of the spirit, but we are not born into immortality yet. We are like fetuses in the womb who have received a life, but have not yet been born into the world. Many things at that stage can and do go wrong, e.g., stillbirths, miscarriages. They had life, but they died. Same applies to our walk in Christ. There are many perils along the way that can quench our spirit if we do not fight the fight of faith until the end.

Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.” 1 Timothy 6:12

I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 2 Timothy 4:7​

If salvation was automatic with no effort on our part, why did Paul say fight? Fighting is work.

Wow this is legalism.

Was the fetus considered a child of God?

Did it work to be born?

Or did it's mother's body give it food?

In the womb what work did you do?

Did the fetus have a soul?

True some fetus are still born and never see the light of day, some believers are choked by sin and never escape the more before they die a physical death but God knows their heart and if by faith they truly believe Christ redeeming work on the cross. They are still loved children of God. Still mourned by Him and his family.

Adoption is done by the parents not the children.
Yet if you are blessed to be born again, given the Holy Spirit.then like a babe learn knowledege,learn to walk with Him

If you believe yourself a mature elder then disciple the babes before giving them tools to work.

You don't give a three year old a hammer and tell them to build a house.

 

[RickyZ]

What is "salvation status"?

That would be whether or not one is truly saved

thats fine

As long as you stop there, and do not go onto say that if that quality of works stop. or gets less. then your salvation status is in question, even though at one time, it was never in question.

There is where legalism takes its ugly head and distorts the truth and makes works a God thing, and turns it into a man thing.

If you are producing bad fruit then that shows you are not truly saved. If you are not truly saved then you never were. That would go to scripture that says even tho they were among us they weren't really one of us.

 

[FreeNChrist]

That would be whether or not one is truly saved.

How do you know when you have had enough "quality" works to prove you are saved?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Wow this is legalism.

Was the fetus considered a child of God?

Did it work to be born?

Or did it's mother's body give it food?

In the womb what work did you do?

Did the fetus have a soul?

True some fetus are still born and never see the light of day, some believers are choked by sin and never escape the more before they die a physical death but God knows their heart and if by faith they truly believe Christ redeeming work on the cross. They are still loved children of God. Still mourned by Him and his family.

Adoption is done by the parents not the children.
Yet if you are blessed to be born again, given the Holy Spirit.then like a babe learn knowledege,learn to walk with Him

If you believe yourself a mature elder then disciple the babes before giving them tools to work.

You don't give a three year old a hammer and tell them to build a house.

Well you make some good points (I guess), but you didn't really address the gist of what I was saying. I didn't say anything about a fetus doing anything. The point was that it had been conceived and was therefore alive, yet could die. Scriptures like the two that I listed (and there are many more) suggest that this can also happen in the spiritual realm. Why else is there a need to fight. Paul didn't tell Timothy to fight for a crown; he said fight for eternal life. How is the fight of faith not work?

 

[blondieindahouse]

How do you know when you have had enough "quality" works to prove you are saved?

Romans …15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.