How was job righteous?

Elin · Nov 8, 2013

Yes, he is referring to the sinfulness of Israel, soon to result in exile to Babylon.

And let's not mitigate the true meaning of Isa 64:6 in the light of the NT.
All men are born in sin and condemned because of the sin of Adam (Ro 5:12-14).
Until they come to saving faith in the Promise (Ge 3:15), Christ Jesus, "there is no one
righteous, not even one" (Ro 3:10), "all their good deeds are as filthy rags" (Isa 64:6).

Then you are saying that the NT misuses Scripture, because in Ro 3:9-18, it states that all people, everywhere, all the time are wicked in their lying unbelief and apart from saving faith.

Nor did he say he had in 28:15, above.

First of all, Ro 1-3 is Paul's demonstration that apart from the righteousness given by God through faith, all men are condemned sinners, Jew as well as Gentile.

The context of the first three chps of Ro is a righteousness from God (Ro 3:21, 5:17), through faith in Christ Jesus (Ro 3:22), for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Ro 3:23).

Secondly, Paul, who received his revelation from Christ Jesus personally, uses Ps 14 & 53,
in the light of their NT meaning, which differs from their OT meaning, just as the other NT writers,
who were likewise taught the meaning of the Scriptures by Jesus (Lk 24:44-45), used the OT Scriptures
(e.g., Isa 7:14; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:15) in the light of their NT meaning.

It is not for us to tell the NT writers the meaning of OT Scriptures in the light of the NT.

And the righteousness to which Heb is referring is a righteousness from God (Ro 3:21),
which is a gift from God (Ro 5:17), and is not premised on righteous conduct.

In the NT, the righteousness which saves is not one's righteous conduct.

No, read it again.
He was commended as righteous because of his offerings, which bore witness to his faith.

You have it backwards.
His faith didn't bear witness that he was righteous,
his righteous deed bore witness of his faith.

Faith is not the result, which then bears witness to a righteousness attained by conduct.
Faith is the cause of righteousness, right standing before God; i.e., justification.,
which righteousness is witness to faith.

Right conduct is not the cause of righteousness, right conduct is the result of the gift of righteousness.
Faith is the cause of righteousness (Ge 15:6).
Righteousness is not the cause of faith.

No, genuine faith is a gift of God (Php 1:29, 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3),
premised on nothing but God's free grace (Eph 2:8-9).

Geniune faith then produces/effects the heart truly yielded to the will of God.
Faith first, then will yielded to God.

Not according to Scripture.

They are righteous because they believe (Ge 15:6).
Righteousness is the result of faith,
righteousness is not the cause of faith.

Keeping in mind that all those advantages are without eternal life, and are paltry
compared to what the NT Church of believers (Jew and Gentile) has in Christ Jesus.

That's not what it says:

"Faith" (Gr: pistis) also means "faithfulness," which is its obvious meaning in your "faith of God."
The verse states: "shall the unbelief of some make the faithfulness of God without effect?"

In Ro 3:3, Paul is not discussing the faith of believers, he is contrasting the unfaithfulness
of unbelieving Israel with the faithfulness of God (to his righteous character) in keeping his
promise to punish all who disobey the law.
Unbelief is no excuse.

"So that you may be proved right when you speak and overcome when you judge." (Ro 3:4-5)

Paul is speaking of the unbelief of Israel in rejecting their Messiah.
Unbelief is a lie because it denies the truth of God.

Actually, in vv. 5-8, Paul is dealing with the absurd objection of unbelief, which accuses God of injustice in punishing the unrighteous, whose unrighteousness results in commending the righteousness of God.

Paul is speaking of all mankind, no exceptions, prior to the gift of righteousness from God through saving faith by grace.

Yes, we are by his grace freely justified, declared righteous, our sin forgiven,
it is all a gift of God (Ro 3:21, 5:17) by grace because of Christ's sacrifice for sin; i.e., redemption.
(Ro 3:25)

And this justification/righteousness by forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ Jesus (Ro 3:21-22)
saves us from the wrath of God due on our sin (Ro 5:9) at the Final Judgment.

So not only is justification/righteousness through faith by grace,
but also salvation from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) is through faith by grace (Eph 2:8-9).

Neither justication/righteousness nor salvation are due to our righteous conduct.
Rather our righteous conduct is the result of them.

Let's not get the cart (righteous conduct) before the horse (faith).

chubbena · Nov 8, 2013

Cobus said:

Exo your answer is in Job 42.... Does a perfect man need to repent? Job did in Job 42... And Job was NOT PERFECT... He himself ABHORE HIMSELF.... He says he spoke of things he understood not,... Read Job 42... Job withdew ALL of the book of Job....

Also Sayan will NEVER enter into the light.... Corinthians says.. there is NO communion between light and darkness...

Read Job 42... And learn the Truth.

I guess he was upright and perfect until he failed the trials.

Thaway · Nov 8, 2013

Exoaria said:

I can see how you might be confused. Those verses are talking about different concepts, even though the English uses similar words.

Everyone has sinned...thus, apart from some change, "there is no one righteous, not even one." Jesus' act enables you and I to become righteous, in terms of what Romans 3:10 is talking about.

The verses from Isaiah and Job that you quoted, in my opinion, are talking about outward acts, like stealing, and performing religious rituals. This is "good news" Jesus spoke about, that Jesus has provided a way that makes outward acts irrelevant (more on this later).

As you wisely see, Isaiah points out that man, alone, is lost. There is nothing we can do. But as Romans clearly describes, there is a Way to God, a way that we don't have to rely on acts to be judged righteous or not. It is truly, good news.

You might find these verses helpful; they comes just a few verses later in Roman 3: 21, 22a:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. [SUP]22 [/SUP]This righteousness is given through faith in[SUP][h][/SUP] Jesus Christ to all who believe. (the rest of 22 jumps into a new concept so this is just the first part of the verse)

There it is! Plain as day…”righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.” AMEN! Praise the Lord! Wow! The question for me is why…He did not have to, but He did. He made what was dirty, clean. He made the broken whole again. He is the restorer and giver of life. I don’t know why, but I am glad He did.

Elin · Nov 8, 2013

chubbena said:

He did not fail the trials.

The trial was to see if he would curse God (Job 1:11).

In all his trials, Job did not curse God (Job 2:5, 10).

He passed the trial, just as Jesus passed his trial with Satan in the desert.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Nov 8, 2013

Elin said:

That's correct. The ones who failed the test were Job's 3 friends who condemned him out of their own self-righteousness. GOD said that they did not speak rightly as his servant Job did, and declared that they were in danger of judgment for doing so.

Skinski7 · Nov 9, 2013

Elin said:

You very much misunderstand me Elin.

You are asserting that I am stating that "deeds" produce "faith" by which one is justified.I claim no such thing. Deeds are merely the fruit of faith because righteous deeds are a product of inward faith.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. When any individual submits themselves to the will of God (which is heard through the conscience/Bible/teachers etc.) the grace of God (the aspect of divine influence upon the heart) manifests THROUGH that individual. Hence we are saved by grace THROUGH the dynamic of a working faith. A working faith being the dynamic of yielding to God from the heart.

You are implying that I am claiming that outward deeds are the first cause which then produce this faith. I don't believe that and I have never stated anything like that. God is the first cause and it is our response to God which effects whether we be reconciled or not (which is why Paul in 2Cor 5:20 implores people to be reconciled to God).

Look at what happened to Abraham...

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

God FIRST called Abraham to do something. Abraham THEN yielded to God's instruction, placing his well being in God's hands (notice that Abraham was not born with an inability to obey God). Thus Abraham "acted" upon faith. The actual "deed" of going out was the fruit of Abraham's faith. I do not claim that the "going out" produced his faith.

Likewise with Noah...

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

God FIRST called upon Noah to do something. Noah THEN yielded to God's instruction, placing his well being in God's hands. Thus Noah "acted" upon faith. The actual "deed" of building the ark was the fruit of Noah's faith. I do not claim that the "building the ark" produced his faith.

Can you see how the premise of your rejection of what I wrote is actually erroneous? You are attempting to refute a position that I don't actually hold.

Your criticism of my post is all premised on an error where you presume that I am claiming that deeds are what initiate faith when I claim no such thing.

It is very evident that the root of your misunderstanding, of what I have written, is due to your adherrence to the error of "Original Sin." You state matter of factly that you believe that all men are "born in sin" and that this means that all men are "born already condemned" because of what Adam did. In other words you don't believe that you are personally responsible for your own condemnation but are blaming Adam.

This view that you are upholding can be sourced to Augustine's Fourth Century view of Romans 5:12-14 which is based off of the erroneous Latin Vulgate translation of Rom 5:12 where "in quo" (in whom) is rendered in the place of "for that" or "because all" which is the proper rendition of the Greek.

Nowhere in Romans 5:10-12 does it say that all people are born in an already condemned state already guilty of sin like you have claimed.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Death passes upon all men for all men have sinned. This verse does not say "sin passes upon all men because Adam sinned."
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Sin unto death is rebellion. This is why babies cannot sin unto death because they know not good from evil. Babies are not born already condemned.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. Death reigned before the law of Moses because people sinned against their conscience (ie. the law written on the heart).

The text doesn't say anything close to that. It states that sin entered the world through Adam and therefore death entered into the world by this sin. It then states that this death passed upon all men for that all have sinned. It does not say sin passed upon all men, it says death is passed on because all have sinned. Compare that to James where he writes about "death and sin"...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

There is no implication in what James writes that men are "born already dead" which is the view you are promoting. Likewise Paul writes...

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Augustine taught that Paul was born already dead due to actually "sinning in Adam" (in quo). Augustine was wrong and all the theologians like John Calvin and Martin Luther who have upheld the Augustinian view have been wrong too. Their entire theological framework is premised on the error of Original Sin. Sin slays each one of us when we personally sin against God, we were not slain in Adam. It is our iniquities which separate us from God not a birth condition. It was the ground that was cursed as a result of Adam's sin not his offspring.

Sinning unto death is not an abstract forensic position we are born into nor is obedience unto righteousness positional in any way. Both are manifest realities which involve an actual walk. Death reigns by Adam when we follow his example and righteousness reigns by Jesus Christ when we follow His example. There is NOTHING positional about any of it.

The condemnation of men is not resultant of a "birth state" according to Jesus but rather it is due that men refuse to come to the light that their deeds be reproved (see Joh 3). God justly condemns sinners because their rebellion is willful. Their rebellion was a choice not some birth defect. It is so dangerous to shift the responsibility of sinning from the individual to a birth defect for it redefines the entire Gospel. Repentance is no longer a coming clean before God through godly sorrow whereby the rebellion is thrown off, rather it is redefined into being a confession of inability and sinfulness where the rebellion continues.

This doctrine of Original Sin blinds you to my words Elin. It blinds you to such an extent that you read things into what I write that I have not even stated.

Reformed Theology is wrong. Calvinism is wrong. There is no such thing a the forensic imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ cloaking a manifest state of iniquity. Imputed righteousness has to do with God looking at the heart of an individual to see if it is clean or not. An individual with a clean heart by necessity has a faith which purified that heart, a faith which is the working dynamic of trusting and therefore yielding to God from the heart. It is that kind of faith that God reckons as righteousness. A faith that WALKS in the steps of Abraham. A faith that produces good fruit.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Abraham had a faith that was righteous by which walked trusting and obeying God. Abraham had that inner dynamic by which the grace of God could manifest THROUGH Him by which he was saved.

Skinski7 · Nov 9, 2013

This notion that infants are born already wicked and therefore already condemned is such a horrible teaching. It casts such a dispersion on the true character of God.

We are all responsible or our own sin. To blame Adam for our sin or to blame a birth defect as the cause of our rebellion is so foolish.

Satan knows that the means to approach God is through a genuine repentance experience by faith. Thus Satan has attacked and redefined repentance and faith in modern theology in order to prevent people from approaching God correctly.

If Satan or one of his ministers can convince you that we are all "unable" to obey God and that "sin we will and sin we must" then "obedience unto righteousness" is thrown out the window. Under this deception people are led to believe that they must wait on God to make them obey because they are unable to do so. Many of these people never come to realise that God has already given them all they need to overcome sin, the problem being they are simply unwilling and thus easily take comfort in false teachings which excuse an ongoing state of iniquity as normal.

Don't be deceived.

Elin · Nov 9, 2013

Skinski17 said:

I took my understanding from the following in your post:

Job was righteous for the same reason Abraham was righteous (Ge 15:6); i.e., faith.

Isaiah was not associating himself with unbelieving Israel.

Ro 1-3 is a demonstration that apart from righteousness given by God, which all men are before they are born again through faith, they are condemned sinners because of the sin of Adam (Ro 5:19),
Jew as well as Gentile.

No, genuine faith is a gift of God (Php 1:29, 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3),
premised on nothing but God's free grace (Eph 2:8-9).

That's not what it says:

"Faith" (Gr: pistis) also means "faithfulness," which is its obvious meaning in your "faith of God."
The verse states: "shall the unbelief of some make the faithfulness of God without effect?"

In Ro 3:3, Paul is not discussing the faith of believers, he is contrasting the unfaithfulness
of unbelieving Israel with the faithfulness of God (to his righteous character) in keeping his
promise to punish all who disobey the law.
Unbelief is no excuse.

"So that you may be proved right when you speak and overcome when you judge." (Ro 3:4-5)

What are you saying comes first here, grace or submission?

We are saved from the wrath of God on sin (Ro 5:9) instantly, before there is any work of obedience, through the faith freely given by grace at the new birth.

Having been freely saved by the free gift of faith (Php 1:29: 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3),
one's faith then works itself out in obedience.

But the obedience has nothing to do with salvation.
It is simply proof of the gift of faith that gives salvation.

Therefore, where there is no obedience, we know there is no true faith.
But it is the true faith that saves, not the obedience.

Elin · Nov 9, 2013

Skinski7 said:

I accept your claim about what you hold, and apologize for any mispresentation on my part.

It's not either/or, it's both/and.

I am guilty of the sin of Adam (Ro 5:19) which condemns me from birth,
and I am guilty of my own sin which also condemned me as soon as I was able to sin.

Not for me, it isn't.
It is sourced to Ro 5:12-14.

I don't use the Latin Vulgate translation, and "in whom" is not in the text.

Agreed, that is precisely stated in Ro 5:12-14.

Your hermeneutic is in disagreement with the text.

"Where there is no law, sin is not taken into account.
But nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses." (Ro 5:13-14)

The context shows that it is the Mosaic Law, not the law of conscience, under discussion,
which law did not exist between the time of Adam and the time of Moses.

Without that specific (Mosaic) law, sin is not taken into account.

But death is the wages of sin (Ro 6:23).
So what sin caused their death, if sin was not taken into account?

The question is answered in v. 19: ". . .through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners."

God declared them guilty of the sin of Adam, just as he declares them righteous with the righteousness of Christ Jesus,

". ..through the obedience (to death on the cross--Php 2:8) of the one man, the many will be made righteousness."
(Ro 5:19)

In neither case, guilt or righteousness, does it have anything to do with what man did.
It is all God's declaration--sin, forgiveness and righteousness.

You are not reckoning with the clear word of God here, but are handling it loosely to bring it into agreement with your view.

Each will have to decide for himself regarding it.

Elin · Nov 9, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Human objection does not nullify the clear meaning of Ro 5:12-19.

Skinski7 · Nov 9, 2013

Elin,

All you are doing is playing a game of rhetoric with me.

Nowhere does the Bible teach that the "righteousness of Christ" is credited to the believers account. The Bible plainly states that it is faith itself that God reckons as righteousness.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

There it is right there. You cannot get around that so you dance all over the place implying this and implying that.

Likewise nowhere does the Bible teach that you are "born guilty and already condemned" because of Adam. You appeal to Rom 5:19 as a proof text for this but it does not say that.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Adam did not automatically make many people sinners any more than the obedience of Jesus automatically makes people righteous.

If such was the case then Jesus would not have taught about heart purity as being the central theme of righteousness. Read Matthew 5, 6 and 7 and Jesus is teaching about an inward state of heart by which an individual is either righteous or unrighteous.

Paul in Romans chapter 5 is speaking of EXAMPLE not PROXY. God does not condemn babies to hell because Adam sinned. Nor does God reckon a rebellious sinner righteous because Jesus was obedient. The basis of God's imputation of righteousness is FAITH and it is a FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE. In other words God is looking at the heart.

The heart issue is what your theology cannot comprehend. It may give lip service to heart purity as something to be desired but in actual practicality it is rejected because your religion teaches a state of perpetual iniquity whilst one remains in a flesh body (exactly as the Gnostics taught).

Your entire post (and all your posts in response to me) ALWAYS dance around the issue of heart purity. It is something you cannot succinctly address because the issue would be very problematic.

I can quote excerpts from foundational Reformed documents like this...

Skinski7 · Nov 9, 2013

Oh and yes faith is a gift from God. Yet that does not mean God magically makes us faithful apart from any requirement of "doing" on our part. Jesus called us to be DOERS of the word and not hearers only. Jesus did not imply that we have to wait on God to offset an inability to do, NO, he simply commanded us to be doers.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. In other words if we listen and pay attention to what God is telling us our faith grows. That is how the gift of faith comes upon us. Without faith is it impossible to please God but He is a rewarder of those who DILIGENTLY seek Him.

Elin · Nov 9, 2013

Skinski7 said:

It does in Ro 5:19.

"Through the obedience of one man, the many were made righteous." (Ro 5:19)

The Greek word for "counted" here is logizomai, which is "to reckon (to attribute, impute),"
"to number," "to account (to debit/credit)."

His faith is accounted (credited) to him as righteousness. (Ge 15:6)

Well, let's look at the whole counsel of God.

The righteousness of Jesus Christ comes through faith (Ro 3:22),
which is a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3)
and not the doing of man.

And the righteousness which comes through faith is also a gift of God
(Ro 1:17, 3:21), and not the doing of man.

The gift of the righteousness (Ro 1:17, 3:21) of Jesus Christ (Ro 5:19)
is reckoned, accounted (credited) to many by the gift of faith (Ro 4:3, 5, 9, 22)

Christ's righteousness is credited to those who believe in him.

Previously addressed in post #29, at my last response.

Each will have to decide for himself regarding these matters.

Elin · Nov 9, 2013

Skinski7 said:

No, faith first has to come, before it can grow.

It is a gift of God (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3) given in the hearing of the word of God.
Then the gift of God grows through obedience.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Nov 10, 2013

The bible doesn't say that faith is credited as righteousness, but that faith is credited into [eis, εἰς] the righteousness of GOD.

The idea that faith is credited as righteousness regards faith as a meritorious work that makes man righteous.

The belief that faith is credited into righteousness regards faith as a non-meritorious work that imputes to man the righteousness of GOD.

In the former case, man gets the glory; in the latter, GOD gets the glory.

Isdaniel · Nov 10, 2013

[h=3]Romans 4[/h]King James Version (KJV)

4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Isdaniel · Nov 10, 2013

James 2

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

NoahsDad · Nov 10, 2013

jimmydiggs said:

What in Ham bone has this statement got to do with Job? or the book of Romans?
I don't care that You worship 3 individual Gods ,And a Man , So leave those who worship YHVH Alone .
John Calvin - False Teacher
You can find Cult lists All over the internet , Stop pushing Your opinion on others and Judge the tree by its fruits Not by some guys opinion.
BILLY GRAHAM HAS BEEN COMPROMISED FOR YEARS : Apprising Ministries

starfield · Nov 10, 2013

NoahsDad said:

It doesn't. You quoted the signature.

Skinski7 · Nov 10, 2013

My comments in purple.

Elin said:

It does in Ro 5:19.

"Through the obedience of one man, the many were made righteous." (Ro 5:19)

Through the obedience of Jesus we are literally made righteous when we abide in Him. It is not a forensic credit but an actual transformation that takes place.

Verse 19 says nothing of a forensic credit which cloaks actual inward filthiness. If righteousness is only a forensic cloak apart from an actual genuine inward state of real righteousness then why does the Bible say things like this...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Righteousness is connected to doing because the inward state bears an outward manifestation.

John writes...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

The children of God are manifest to the world by their conduct. There is no such thing as a righteous person who is out fornicating and murdering people. Yet Reformed Theology teaches that there can be due to their teaching of an "abstract righteousness."

Article 11, Westminster Confession
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/According to the quote above a "justified Christian" can do that which is evil and it has no bearing on whether God considers them righteous or not due to the "forensic cloak."

Likewise...

Article 17, Westminster Confession
Westminster Confession of Faith

Under this theology a serial murderer or a child molester could come to Christ and then fall back into committing murders or molesting children "for a time" all the while God views them as righteous. There is no way around this conclusion being drawn for your religion. The whole premise of Reformed Theology is a CLOAKING OF SIN instead of a CLEANSING OF SIN.

Thus you must reject the "in this the children of God are manifest" and any other Biblical text which connects CONDUCT to RIGHTEOUSNESS. The faith of Abraham which God reckons as righteousness (Rom 4:5) does not produce wicked behaviour but rather produces the WALK of Abraham (Rom 4:12) which is why God imputes those as righteous who also WALK in the steps of Abraham.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Reformed Theology throws the steps of Abraham completely out the window because they teach that the "faith" that God reckons as righteousness has NOTHING to do with an inward transformation having taken place. That is the key here. By treating salvation as a pure ABSTRACTION they have utterly rejected the actual MANIFESTATION of a genuine salvation experience.

While I don't expect you, Elin, to be able to see this due to the severity of your indoctrination and your emotional attachment to this indoctrination I hope that others reading this might begin to see this deception.

The Greek word for "counted" here is logizomai, which is "to reckon (to attribute, impute),"
"to number," "to account (to debit/credit)."

His faith is accounted (credited) to him as righteousness. (Ge 15:6)

Yes the "faith" of Abraham was credited to him as righteousness EXACTLY as the text states. The text does not teach that the "obedience of Jesus" is judicially transferred to your account which is what Reformed Theology teaches.

Article 9, Westminster Confession
Westminster Confession of Faith

The "faith" that God reckons as righteous is a "faith that works by love."

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Love does not work ill and thus fulfills the righteousness of the law.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Which is why Paul writes that faith upholds the law.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The reason Reformed Theology can teach that an individual can "fall into grevious sins due to the remaining inward corruption" (see quotes above) is because it rejects the notion that FAITH WORKS BY LOVE and therefore WORKS NO ILL and thus FULFILLS THE LAW. Instead of teaching what the Bible teaches they teach this purely POSITIONAL LEGAL EXCHANGE which serves to CLOAK ONGOING WICKEDNESS. That is Satanic doctrine designed to keep people sinning against God with a perception that they are in fact saved when they are not.

The faith that God reckons as righteousness is a particular kind of faith that has been wrought via godly sorrow and repentance through which an individual comes into a state of heart submission to the will of God.

The reason James connects faith and deeds is because "genuine faith" ALWAYS produces manifest righteousness. Genuine faith is a MANIFEST REALITY of abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. That is why there is no such thing as faith and rebellion coexisting. To claim that one can "fall into grevious sins for a time" whilst one is still "reckoned righteous by their faith" is nonsense. Faith is not some mental notion of accepting that Jesus swapped places with you.

Jesus gave this warning...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Genuine faith produces DOING because genuine faith is FAITHFULNESS. Those who possess a genuine faith, the faith of Jesus, do not work iniquity. Reformed Theology teaches that one who possesses a genuine faith can (and in fact will) work iniquity due to the inward corruption of nature which remains until death.

Satan, through the Reformed doctrine of the "forensic imputed righteousness of Christ," has convinced MANY people that they can sin and not surely die. These people NEVER come to a genuine repentance experience where their old man is crucified to the rudiments of the world and crucified to the passions and desires of the flesh and thus they never stop sinning unto death. Therefore there is no forgiveness for them. It is so tragic that so many die in this state utterly deceived.

How was job righteous?

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