Hyper grace

[james57]

Joseph prince preached rom6:14, that is the core of Paul's gospel message of grace. And yet, people believe this same Paul who said the impure would not attain heaven, some believe as a mature christian he was sold as a slave to sin and evil and u able to do the good he wanted to do
But I guess you can come up with any doctrine if you choose to.

If people want to believe the cross of Christ is not full of power and only able to leave you in the state of the man in rom7:14-25, of course they may
But it promotes an incredibly weak message of the cross and what was achieved at calvary

 

[james57]

[SUP] [/SUP]We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. [SUP]15 [/SUP]I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. [SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[SUP][c][/SUP] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. [SUP]20 [/SUP]Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.[SUP]21 [/SUP]So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. [SUP]24 [/SUP]What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? [SUP]25 [/SUP]Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord


For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14

..........

 

[james57]

Verse 14 tells us in what connection Paul is speaking. He has previously told us that sin used what was good and holy( the law)'to arouse all manner of concupiscence in hilm.
In verse14 what has he I mind, following after the spirit, or the law?

We know that the LAW is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin

What did Paul the christian believe?

If you are sold as a slave to sin it leads to death rom6:16

 

[ladylynn]

..........

I think when we first get saved and are learning how to rightly divide the Word of truth., we learn over the span of years that we have a say in how much of God we allow to influence us. For instance Bible reading. How many of us really study things out and take time to listen and re listen over and over? Do we saturate our minds with the Bible and Bible teaching throughout our day? Took me yeeeeaaaaarrrrrs to 'get a clue' about this and even today I am side tracked during the busy days of working and living. But have seen that when God is brought into my day it's much easier not to fall prey to discouragement or confusion.


Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We gain more faith as we are open to His working in our lives and avail ourselves to the Bible and opportunities to be with other Christians who can share and teach us and vs vs. How to know the difference between our feelings and the facts of the truth and what to ignore and what to take seriously.

When Paul first began his walk, he said and for our benefit too.,; what a wretched man he was and the whole trying to figure out what happens to him when he wanted to think and do for Christ but finding another principle in his members..that must have been a shock!! The good we want to do we have no power to do and the evil we don't want to do is in our minds. What a Ca nun drum!! But as he learned how to buffet his body., he learned from the HS about the differences of spirit and body. The HS taught him how to walk. What a comfort it was for me to learn that the struggle of the saved soul was normal to believers. Even Paul wrote about it.

We do have a say in how much we grow and have our minds transformed. It can be something as simple as making sure what we allow in our minds by our eye-gate and ear-gate. How we spend our time and what we set our minds to....what so ever things are pure, right., of good report... etc... and to think on these things.... will be very beneficial in how we are able to put off the old and put on the new. Knowing the Bible verses that say "God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power and love and a sound mind" when we find out that God has already given us this., we are much more able to learn how to walk it out daily.

It amazes me how the whole Bible keeps going back to the same truths over and over. It is abiding on the Vine being vitally connected to Him for our peace and learning. It keeps going back to Jesus ..the author and finisher of our faith.

C

 

[james57]

I think when we first get saved and are learning how to rightly divide the Word of truth., we learn over the span of years that we have a say in how much of God we allow to influence us. For instance Bible reading. How many of us really study things out and take time to listen and re listen over and over? Do we saturate our minds with the Bible and Bible teaching throughout our day? Took me yeeeeaaaaarrrrrs to 'get a clue' about this and even today I am side tracked during the busy days of working and living. But have seen that when God is brought into my day it's much easier not to fall prey to discouragement or confusion.


Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. We gain more faith as we are open to His working in our lives and avail ourselves to the Bible and opportunities to be with other Christians who can share and teach us and vs vs. How to know the difference between our feelings and the facts of the truth and what to ignore and what to take seriously.

When Paul first began his walk, he said and for our benefit too.,; what a wretched man he was and the whole trying to figure out what happens to him when he wanted to think and do for Christ but finding another principle in his members..that must have been a shock!! The good we want to do we have no power to do and the evil we don't want to do is in our minds. What a Ca nun drum!! But as he learned how to buffet his body., he learned from the HS about the differences of spirit and body. The HS taught him how to walk. What a comfort it was for me to learn that the struggle of the saved soul was normal to believers. Even Paul wrote about it.

We do have a say in how much we grow and have our minds transformed. It can be something as simple as making sure what we allow in our minds by our eye-gate and ear-gate. How we spend our time and what we set our minds to....what so ever things are pure, right., of good report... etc... and to think on these things.... will be very beneficial in how we are able to put off the old and put on the new. Knowing the Bible verses that say "God has not given us the spirit of fear but of power and love and a sound mind" when we find out that God has already given us this., we are much more able to learn how to walk it out daily.

It amazes me how the whole Bible keeps going back to the same truths over and over. It is abiding on the Vine being vitally connected to Him for our peace and learning. It keeps going back to Jesus ..the author and finisher of our faith.

C

I fully agree it is the choice of the christian how much they grow. You mentions bible reading. The amount of prayer time a person has each day I would add to that.
I agree not being able to do the good you want to do can refer to a new christian, but it could equally refer to Paul the Pharisee who ardently wanted to obey the ten commandments but couldn't.

 

[ladylynn]

Verse 14 tells us in what connection Paul is speaking. He has previously told us that sin used what was good and holy( the law)'to arouse all manner of concupiscence in hilm.
In verse14 what has he I mind, following after the spirit, or the law?

We know that the LAW is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin

What did Paul the christian believe?

If you are sold as a slave to sin it leads to death rom6:16

We need to read that verse in context about what leads to death...

Jesus said, “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon” (Matthew 6:24). We cannot become the servants of righteousness until we are made free from serving sin.
As discussed in note 9 at Romans 6:16, “servants” here denotes slavery. Christians still sin (1 John 1:7 and 9), but they aren’t the slaves of sin (see note 9 at Romans 5:21) anymore. Those who believe that the “old man” still lives and exerts mastery in their lives (see notes 1-3 at Romans 6:11) will not experience the joy of being servants to righteousness.



There is much more to this especially in the context of Romans 6. And not all Bible commentators see eye to eye on this. I love what JP says about it. I enjoy many grace teachers and preachers but by far my favorite at this time is JP.
He mentions something none of the other commentators suggest and it goes along with the other verses without trouble. be back later... Blessings!!

 

[james57]

We need to read that verse in context about what leads to death...

Jesus said, “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon” (Matthew 6:24). We cannot become the servants of righteousness until we are made free from serving sin.
As discussed in note 9 at Romans 6:16, “servants” here denotes slavery. Christians still sin (1 John 1:7 and 9), but they aren’t the slaves of sin (see note 9 at Romans 5:21) anymore. Those who believe that the “old man” still lives and exerts mastery in their lives (see notes 1-3 at Romans 6:11) will not experience the joy of being servants to righteousness.



There is much more to this especially in the context of Romans 6. And not all Bible commentators see eye to eye on this. I love what JP says about it. I enjoy many grace teachers and preachers but by far my favorite at this time is JP.
He mentions something none of the other commentators suggest and it goes along with the other verses without trouble. be back later... Blessings!!

Absolutely, christians still sin but ARE NOT slaves of sin, that I it in a nutshell.

The person however mentions in ch7:14-24 was sold as a slave to sin, he said so in verse 14.
He said he could not do the good he wanted to.
Note he didn't say SOMETIMES I can do the good i want to. He said I CANNOT do the good I want but rather the evil I do not want to do this I keep on doing. He spoke of sin being his master, not a struggle where sometimes the flesh won and sometimes it lost.

 

[ladylynn]

I fully agree it is the choice of the christian how much they grow. You mentions bible reading. The amount of prayer time a person has each day I would add to that.
I agree not being able to do the good you want to do can refer to a new christian, but it could equally refer to Paul the Pharisee who ardently wanted to obey the ten commandments but couldn't.

Oh rats I need to get going but saw your comment about Paul the Pharisee. When he was not saved, he may have wanted to obey the 10 commandments but from what I read about him, he already thought he was a pretty religiously good guy. But was killing Christians and felt totally justified before God in doing so. As a matter of fact, he thought God wanted him to do so. He was a religious pharisee who like all unsaved self righteous people can use God as an excuse to do all manner of evil in God's name. People do it all the time and continue to do it. Self righteousness and pride go hand in hand. It's appalling how humans can justify themselves as they kill people around them. Like the Nazis killing the Jews for instance.

And I have seen not so mature believers say they must defend the Gospel by shooting their brothers and sisters in Christ who believe differently than they do. Humans who are not Jesus minded are apt to do just about anything. Even believers who are not walking in truth can do some rotten things. I have been there myself and looking back can see the blindness of my self righteousness.

 

[james57]

Oh rats I need to get going but saw your comment about Paul the Pharisee. When he was not saved, he may have wanted to obey the 10 commandments but from what I read about him, he already thought he was a pretty religiously good guy. But was killing Christians and felt totally justified before God in doing so. As a matter of fact, he thought God wanted him to do so. He was a religious pharisee who like all unsaved self righteous people can use God as an excuse to do all manner of evil in God's name. People do it all the time and continue to do it. Self righteousness and pride go hand in hand. It's appalling how humans can justify themselves as they kill people around them. Like the Nazis killing the Jews for instance.

And I have seen not so mature believers say they must defend the Gospel by shooting their brothers and sisters in Christ who believe differently than they do. Humans who are not Jesus minded are apt to do just about anything. Even believers who are not walking in truth can do some rotten things. I have been there myself and looking back can see the blindness of my self righteousness.

Broadly speaking I agree with you, but it would have been impossible for Paul not to be aware he could bot obey the ten commandments. Yes, outwardly he thought he was pretty good, he faultlessly obeyed the legalistic law( phil3:6) but he said himself thou shalt not covet condemned him.
A point on Thi specific subject. My sister and i were Brough up in the same family and church. I became crushed and walked away for a while, she became hard nosed and phariseeical, she remained in the church. She showed no love, mercy and compassion for the poor or needy and looked down on those not on her intellectual level. She thought she obeyed the ten commandments and was morally superior to many who went to church as she had never got drunk, smoked or slept with anyone outside of marriage. She had me convinced Tha in her heart she had convinced herself of her goodness.
Over thirty years later she came to know of grace, she gave her testimony one day in church and said when she had the legalistic approach she lived her life full of guilt and fear due to her inability to perform perfect.
So I agree people may try and convince themselves they are morally good, but they cannot succeed deep in their hearts

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Verse 14 tells us in what connection Paul is speaking. He has previously told us that sin used what was good and holy( the law)'to arouse all manner of concupiscence in hilm.
In verse14 what has he I mind, following after the spirit, or the law?

We know that the LAW is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin

What did Paul the christian believe?

If you are sold as a slave to sin it leads to death rom6:16

Paul believed that we have two natures: that from Adam and that from Christ. The Adamic nature is a slave of sin.

 

[james57]

Paul believed that we have two natures: that from Adam and that from Christ. The Adamic nature is a slave of sin.

And which of those natures would the following refer to?

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. 2Cor2:7

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And which of those natures would the following refer to?

Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. 2Cor2:7

That specifies neither, so it includes both.

 

[james57]

That specifies neither, so it includes both.

I see. So you believe a Christian can and does sin in both their natures. The new nature born of the Spirit, and the old nature born of the flesh. I have never heard that before.

But you know, if you ever witness to others of Christianity, I would tell them immediately that for the whole of their Christian life they will be sold as a slave to sin and evil, and they wont be able to do the good they want to do. As that is the state they will be in when you witness to them, they are then more likely to accept Christianity I would suggest, for they wont have to change will they. They get the free gift of eternal life without any responssibility to change.
They may as well eat, drink, be merry and have as many affairs as they want, then they have lived according to how you told them they would live

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I see. So you believe a Christian can and does sin in both their natures. The new nature born of the Spirit, and the old nature born of the flesh. I have never heard that before.

But you know, if you ever witness to others of Christianity, I would tell them immediately that for the whole of their Christian life they will be sold as a slave to sin and evil, and they wont be able to do the good they want to do. As that is the state they will be in when you witness to them, they are then more likely to accept Christianity I would suggest, for they wont have to change will they. They get the free gift of eternal life without any responssibility to change.
They may as well eat, drink, be merry and have as many affairs as they want, then they have lived according to how you told them they would live

Why are you putting words into my mouth? The Adamic nature sins;the Christ nature does not. Choose this day whom you will follow: Adam into death, or Christ into life.

 

[james57]

Why are you putting words into my mouth? The Adamic nature sins;the Christ nature does not. Choose this day whom you will follow: Adam into death, or Christ into life.

I am going by your response to the scripture verse 2cor7:2



Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. 2Cor2:7

I asked you which nature the above referred to. You replied:

''That specifies neither, so it includes both.''

Therefore if we have to perfect holiness in both natures, both natures must sin must they not? If we have to purify both natures from everything that contaminates the body, they must both sin surely.

So will you witness to others of Christ that for the whole of their Christian lives they will be sold as a slave to sin and evil, and unable to do the good they want to do?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I am going by your response to the scripture verse 2cor7:2


Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God[/B]. 2Cor2:7

I asked you which nature the above referred to. You replied:

''That specifies neither, so it includes both.''

Therefore if we have to perfect holiness in both natures, both natures must sin must they not? If we have to purify both natures from everything that contaminates the body, they must both sin surely.

So will you witness to others of Christ that for the whole of their Christian lives they will be sold as a slave to sin and evil, and unable to do the good they want to do?

That's your misinformed, queer reasoning, not mine. The Adamic nature cannot make itself holy, but the Christ nature can make us entirely holy, and does.

 

[james57]

That's your misinformed, queer reasoning, not mine. The Adamic nature cannot make itself holy, but the Christ nature can make us entirely holy, and does.

I don't think it is misinformed reasoning.

But why are you reluctant to confirm you will tell others of Christ in respect that as Christians they will be sold as slaves to sin and evil and unable to do the good they want to do. Surely you see that if you tell them that far more will become Christians, for then they are not obligated to bring any change forth from their lives. They are free to have affairs, get drunk etc, unless you are going to state which sins you believe are acceptable and unacceptable to attain to heaven.

 

[james57]

That's your misinformed, queer reasoning, not mine. The Adamic nature cannot make itself holy, but the Christ nature can make us entirely holy, and does.

So people who are sold as slaves to sin and evil are entirely holy?

 

[james57]

I am beginning to wonder who it is here that believes in ''hyper grace''

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't think it is misinformed reasoning.

But why are you reluctant to confirm you will tell others of Christ in respect that as Christians they will be sold as slaves to sin and evil and unable to do the good they want to do. Surely you see that if you tell them that far more will become Christians, for then they are not obligated to bring any change forth from their lives. They are free to have affairs, get drunk etc, unless you are going to state which sins you believe are acceptable and unacceptable to attain to heaven.

When you're ready to quit playing your game and have a mature discussion, I'm ready.