Hyper grace

[james57]

What do you mean by make them align? They are polar opposites.

Yes they are. Only one answer Paul is speaking of his life as a Pharisee in 7:14-25

As you said to me. I can tell you on good authority( I will use those words) Paul is not speaking as a christian in 7:14-25

But if you believe you by your own effort crucify your flesh you will have to believe he is speaking as a christian

How you can believe there is great power in the truth of the cross of Christ and believe Paul is speaking as a mature christian in 7:14-25 is beyond me.

If Paul is speaking as a Pharisee that does not mean christians have to be perfect, discernment should show that

 

[james57]

The power of sin is the law 1cor15:56

The Paul who lived under the law was sold as a slave of sin

The Paul who lived under grace said sin shall not be your master


Paul the Pharisee in rom 7:7-11 could not live as he wanted to live, neither could the Paul of verses 14-25

 

[james57]

For you can be sure of this. No immoral, impure or greedy person, such a man is an idolator has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ. Eph5:5

What do you think this sin is that controls Paul in rom 7:14-25?

It isn't legalistic law for Paul could faultlessly obey that

 

[ladylynn]

what does Paul mean exactly by the Christian not being under the law? Well he states in Romans 10:4, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” (KJV, emphasis mine)
So we see, when Paul says we are not under the law, he means the Christian is not under a law of righteousness before God. So Paul is not saying Christ is the end of the law full stop. No! He says Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. The law remains, therefore, but the penalty attached to it for breaking the law (sin) is removed.You see, if you are not under a law of righteousness before God, you cannot be made unrighteous in His sight for your imperfections concerning those laws, can you? It is not possible. You cannot be condemned, therefore, for your imperfections where those laws are concerned. You are off the hook. This is what so many find so hard to reconcile, however. They find it so hard to accept the Christian is not under a righteousness of obedience to the law before God. They know that must mean you cannot be condemned for your sin, the penalty, for it must have been removed, and to them, that gives a person a licence to sin. You see, however, it is much easier to understand Paul’s comments about us not being under the law if we accept the core terms of being under the New Covenant. I would place them before you again, if I may, in Hebrews 10:16-17:

This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. ‘I will put my laws in their hearts,and I will write them on their minds.’ Then he adds: ‘Their sins and lawless actsI will remember no more.’” (NIV, emphasis mine)

As I have previously mentioned, the New Covenant hinges on not one, but two core points. At the point of conversion, the Holy Spirit writes the law on our minds and places it on our hearts. We have then been born again. We have been changed into people who want to obey in our hearts the law God desires us to keep. At the very moment this happens, we are not under law but under grace, for we have a Saviour from our sin. Our sins and lawless acts will be remembered no more. You see, friend, Jesus cannot be your Saviour from sin unless you are born again. For He will not be anyone’s Saviour from sin unless they desire in their heart to live as His Father wants them to. You see, God is not stupid. He didn’t make a covenant that would give anyone a license to sin if the penalty for sin were removed. Born again people cannot view this covenant that way, for they want to obey from their hearts. That is the whole point of being born again. If you want to obey God from your heart, as I have previously mentioned, it is impossible for you then to wilfully − without conscience − seek to break God’s laws. It cannot happen, friend. Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Ye must be born again.” (emphasis mine) It is not an option; it is pivotal. Without that happening, you cannot be saved.
You see, no matter which country you live in, you are expected to obey the laws of your land, aren’t you? That doesn’t mean, however, you want to obey them all in your heart, does it. They are legal laws written down (or typed) on pieces of paper; they are not placed in your heart. Because that is the case, there is a penalty attached to them for non-compliance to dissuade you from breaking them, isn’t there? And that penalty deters most from breaking whichever laws of their land they do not want to obey in their hearts. If the penalty wasn’t there, you could happily go and rob a bank and suddenly become a millionaire, couldn’t you? After all, what is there to stop you? You see, however, the law God requires you to keep has been transferred from an external law written on tablets of stone, to an internal law written on tablets of human hearts. Paul states in 2 Corinthians 3:3, [SUP]“[/SUP]You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.” (NIV, emphasis mine)
Now, friend, why would the law be transferred onto your heart if the penalty for sin (breaking the law) must remain for you? If the penalty must remain, the law would remain where it was, wouldn’t it? So, because Christians have been born again, they are not under law but under grace. Paul preached the New Covenant, and he preached it mightily. You have been changed into someone who wants to obey God in your heart, and because that has happened, your sins and lawless acts will be remembered no more. You are in a covenant of grace. You are not under the law for righteousness before God.

This is a very good post. It goes along with a message I've been listening to each day on my way to work this week. Many times I like to hear a Bible message over and over to grasp hold on to the verses and how they tie together with one another to make a unified truth that goes to the heart of the matter and then causes that ah ha moment and a revelation that the Holy Spirit is teaching again; Jesus.

Sad is the man who must 'love' his wife out of fear of her or fear from God or some other negative compulsion. And also his family out of pure duty and drudgery. Sad is the person who goes to serve God in his life, his church attendance or giving for those same reasons, fear of death, fear of punishment from God. Fear of death or sickness come upon him or some other punishment caused by his lacking to follow through.

The believer has these truths written in his new heart as James57 has shown the verses here. And what causes the Christian to want to obey God and to love Him and to love His wife and family and his service to the Lord? The LOVE of Christ constrains us... it's the LOVE of Christ that causes us to want to do these things not the fear of law brought down upon us for failure to do so.

How would a wife feel to know her husband only loves her because he is scared not to? Or vs vs? Is that kind of love something that any of us want? I've experienced also that God wants us to do the things we do out of a heart of love for Him. And we do and we enjoy serving Him and learning from Him.
I wish I could say it the way I heard it... THE LOVE OF CHRIST CONSTRAINS US., And in order for that to happen, a new birth takes place and the relationship is no longer slave to master but son to Father.

How vital it is to keep the covenants in their proper place. When we mix law and grace, we get a totally mixed message that loses the power each has to do what God intended separately. Cast out the bondwoman and her son.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The power of sin is the law 1cor15:56

The Paul who lived under the law was sold as a slave of sin

The Paul who lived under grace said sin shall not be your master


Paul the Pharisee in rom 7:7-11 could not live as he wanted to live, neither could the Paul of verses 14-25

Sin can be a believer's master if he lets it, no matter how great the power of the holy spirit is. I think it's people who don't understand spiritual struggle that can say what you've said.

 

[james57]

Sin can be a believer's master if he lets it, no matter how great the power of the holy spirit is. I think it's people who don't understand spiritual struggle that can say what you've said.

Sin will definately be a persons master if they believe by their own effort they must crucify the flesh

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sin will definately be a persons master if they believe by their own effort they must crucify the flesh

Crucifying the flesh

But put on the Lord Jesus Christ and do not make provision for the desires of the flesh. Romans 13:14​

 

[ladylynn]

Do I need to post the many verses that say this? How about a few for starts.

... I die daily. 1 Corinthians 15:31

And they that are Christ's crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts. Galatians 5:24

Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able to, Luke 13:24​

This verse is often quoted as Paul dying to sin daily, but that is not what this is saying. The context makes it very clear that Paul was speaking of physical death. He was saying that he faced death on a daily basis. It would be stupid to do so if there were no resurrection. If there were no resurrection and no eternal destiny at stake, we should just “party” and forgo the hardships (1 Corinthians 15:32).The Bible does not teach a daily death to sin. It clearly states that we died unto sin once, just as Jesus did (Romans 6:1-11), and that we should continually reckon that to be so (see note 3 at Romans 6:2 and note 8 at Romans 6:6).

This is an awesome truth here. I like the Ryrie Study Bible and other study Bibles with commentary to see how often many verses must be seen in different contexts in order to find the one that is proper. I agree with this commentator that Paul is not talking about daily death to sin. We already died to sin once. But from my earliest recognition's I was taught to interpret it to mean dying to sin. Bible study is AWESOME!! The HolySpirit will show us things we never expected to see differently.

And we can clearly see it is not a mis interpretation because we are comparing scripture with scripture as we are admonished to do from the Bible.

 

[james57]

Crucifying the flesh

But put on the Lord Jesus Christ and do not make provision for the desires of the flesh. Romans 13:14​

It doesn't say by you own human effort crucify the flesh does it

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It doesn't say by you own human effort crucify the flesh does it

Not making provision for the longings of the flesh is certainly human effort.

 

[james57]

To be honest , and i am being honest. I am struggling to recall a christian I have known that believes the flesh is crucified by human effort. Christians I know believe the holy spirit is the power through whom victory over the flesh comes from faith I christ

 

[james57]

Not making provision for the longings of the flesh is certainly human effort.

It starts.
Put on the lord Jesus Christ.
Paul's whole message is of the power of the holy spirit in him, not him achieving through human effort

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This verse is often quoted as Paul dying to sin daily, but that is not what this is saying. The context makes it very clear that Paul was speaking of physical death. He was saying that he faced death on a daily basis. It would be stupid to do so if there were no resurrection. If there were no resurrection and no eternal destiny at stake, we should just “party” and forgo the hardships (1 Corinthians 15:32).The Bible does not teach a daily death to sin. It clearly states that we died unto sin once, just as Jesus did (Romans 6:1-11), and that we should continually reckon that to be so (see note 3 at Romans 6:2 and note 8 at Romans 6:6).

This is an awesome truth here. I like the Ryrie Study Bible and other study Bibles with commentary to see how often many verses must be seen in different contexts in order to find the one that is proper. I agree with this commentator that Paul is not talking about daily death to sin. We already died to sin once. But from my earliest recognition's I was taught to interpret it to mean dying to sin. Bible study is AWESOME!! The HolySpirit will show us things we never expected to see differently.

And we can clearly see it is not a mis interpretation because we are comparing scripture with scripture as we are admonished to do from the Bible.

Paul was not in danger of being killed every day. Ridiculous.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It starts.
Put on the lord Jesus Christ.
Paul's whole message is of the power of the holy spirit in him, not him achieving through human effort

Whatever..

 

[Grace777x70]

my take on your question is:

Romans 6:16..if you present yourself to sin this results in death ( example..if I murder someone in a country where they have the death penalty I will die too...this is an extreme case...if I give myself over to shouting and swearing at someone..this leads to death..all sin has a consequence on us in this earth...not walking in love is sin too..etc)

I think this means whatever you yield the members of your body over to leads to death if it is sin...or the fruit of righteousness if you walk inn obedience.

think of sin as a noun ( which is a person, place or thing )... think of it as a parasite in the flesh of in your body. I believe sin was used about 48 times in these 2 chapters and only once is it a verb. There is a difference between sinning and sin...sinning is what we do..it's a verb = action...Sin is the parasite that is in us..the sin principal that resides in the flesh...its the voice in us that says..wouldn't you like to do that? ( some bad thing ).

romans 7:14..the word here "slave" here is a completely different word then the slave in Romans 6:16...it says that he was sold under sin ( slave was added..altho it could still be applied here as a slave ..maybe )..basicly it is just saying because we are in this body we will have the parasite -sin in us...in our flesh.

6:14 it says that the parasite-sin shall not have dominion over him because he does not now relate to law ( law condemns...here you could insert your story of that pesky pink rabbit..ha..you looked! ) ..he relates to grace ( no condemnation in the form of acceptance grace..then when we have a solid foundation in then we get enablement grace as the Spirit in us changes us as we behold Jesus in that mirror in 2 Cor3"18..we see ourselves and in that mirror.)

7:14-23 is talking about how the parasite-sin in our flesh forces him to do what he doesn't want to do....verse 17 says when he gives in to sin that it is no longer him ( the inner man ) doing the sinning but the parasite-sin which dwells in his flesh..verse 18..he says nothing dwells in him..that is the flesh ( the body is not evil..Jesus had a body..it's the parasite that is in it that causes it to age and die eventually )....verse 22 ..he loves the law of God in the inner man..but that pesky parasite-sin which is in his members ( his parts of the body...like the evil wagging tongue in James that sets things on fire )...he says in verse 23..this principal of sin in his members is waging war with him..driving him crazy with guilt and the sin always wanting to do things...etc.

7:14-26 That sounds a whole like the Christian life to me..wanting to do good but finding ourselves doing the very thing we do not want to do..nad it's because of that pesky parasite-sin in my flesh.

In rom 6:16 Paul says if you are a slave to sin it leads to death

In rom 7:14 he states he is sold as a slave to sin. Therefore I he is speaking as a christian he is condemning himself according to 6:16

In 6:14 he states sin shall not be your master for you ate not under law but under grace. In 7:14-25 sin was definitely Paul's master. I could go on and on

There is a huge difference between perfection and the state Paul was in, in 7:14-25. The christian who understands grace should be between the two if they are not a new christian

However, people who believe they must crucify their own flesh will relate to the Paul of 7:14-25 therefore they must believe he is speaking as a christian in those verses( I don't mean you)

 

[ladylynn]

Sin can be a believer's master if he lets it, no matter how great the power of the holy spirit is. I think it's people who don't understand spiritual struggle that can say what you've said.

CORINTHIANS 15:56:
This is a startling statement that, if given proper thought, would totally change the theology of most Christians. The Law strengthened sin, not people. The Law didn’t give people any added power against sin. On the contrary, the Law strengthened the enemy, sin, in its battle against them. Most people thought God gave all the commandments so that they could overcome sin. Instead, God gave the commandments to help sin overcome them. How could this be?
The truth is that sin had already overcome mankind before the Law of God was given. The commission of even one slight sin hopelessly dooms people (James 2:10 with Romans 6:23). That’s the way it is. God’s holiness is so infinitely higher than any degree of holiness that they could ever produce that it’s useless to try and earn God’s favor, but people are very slow to learn that truth.
Paul said in Romans 6:14, “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” It’s the goodness of God that leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). The Law gave the knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), but knowledge of sin won’t save us. We need knowledge of a Savior who redeemed us from sin. That’s the Gospel, and it is this Gospel that gives us power in our battle against sin (see note 1 at Romans 1:16).


Again., these are awesome truths about how sin is overcome in our lives. We can't do it by our will power.

 

[james57]

Not making provision for the longings of the flesh is certainly human effort.

For it is GOD who works in you to WILL and to ACT according to his GOOD PURPOSE
Phil2:13

 

[james57]

I can do everything THROUGH HIM who gives me strength phil4:13

 

[ladylynn]

Paul was not in danger of being killed every day. Ridiculous.

On the contrary HeRose, This was the beginning of the church getting set up. He faced death all the time. How often have people here posted how Paul suffered such things on earth? He was stoned, left for dead., he was tortured, brought before dignitaries., misunderstood.,, etc... He dealt with these things all the time. The church in it's early stages was a time of great persecution and also great JOY.

 

[Grace777x70]

I think romans 7:14-26 is right in synch with chapters 6 and 8....there is a progression...Who is going to deliver me he says from this bondage of death?...that's when romans 8 starts...and then as I wrote earlier..the Spirit of life in CVhrist Jesus is known..walking according to the Spirit..or ..flesh..etc.

Ok..big distinction needed here that helped me out.

there is a difference between "being in the flesh " and "walking according to the flesh"

Being in the flesh in verse 8:9 is not being in Christ... Paul says However , you are not "in the flesh" but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.

Being in the flesh = not born again...(natural man- devoid of the Holy Spirit in them)

Being in the Spirit = born-again with the Spirit of God in us ( or in Christ )

We can walk "according to the flesh" where the pesky parasite-sin is and produce the works of the flesh

We can walk according to the Spirit and produce the fruit of the life of Christ in us..whic is love, joy. peace..etc...I want to point out here that self-control is a fruit of the Spirit and not something we produce on our own power...we do activate our will to chose to work the flesh or walk according to the fruit of the Spirit is that needs to grow out....sometimes we need to wait until the fruit of patience is manifested by the life of Christ in us..or we could walk according to the flesh and "do it" ourselves and self-effort...kinda like "helping God out"..lol

Is any of that bearing witness with your spirit?

Please quote verses five and six. Are you really saying those verses reflect the Paul of 7:14-25?

Rom 7:14-25 is out of sync with chs 6&8.