Hyper grace

[PeterJens]

Beware of the "straw-man!"
Everyone knows that Christians need to change their mind and turn to Jesus....

This phrase "change their mind" is where we have a problem.
The argument is getting clearer. If I say you have to turn away from sin in repentance and believe on Jesus, you are arguing that is salvation by works so one is not saved.

Now what I am saying is simply you need a heart attitude that rejects sin. The fruit of walking in this with Jesus is good works.

Now you are arguing I am not saved by holding to this which is why you want to return to salvation and not sanctification.
I am saying you believe on Jesus to save you from sin and its punishment.

So when I talk about righteousness, you say I am trying earn salvation. You sound like people who do not really think Jesus saved you to be righteous ambassadors of the Kingdom.

The christian church has always stood on the principle of a changed heart and changed behaviour. The focus is off serving self to serving others and the Lord. When did this become self righteousness, and not showing the work of the spirit in our hearts?

You yourselves admit without the Spirit you cannot walk correctly. So surely the testimony of the Spirit is a righteous walk.
But if this is too much for you, where is the power of redemption in your lives, where is your faith that overcomes sin, that sets things aright? You claim such spiritual authority yet seem powerless to claim the victory Jesus bought.

I find it interesting those who claim miracles and great works seem so weak at showing a changed heart with a right mind and life. Which is the true fruit of Jesus, evil deeds or good works.

 

[PeterJens]

We are born with a sin nature that is against God.

This is an assumption.

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:21

It is our behaviour that makes us enemies of God. We are born out of communion with the Lord in our hearts.

John the Baptist was born in communion with the Lord. It could be in one sense he never sinned, I do not know.
Jesus described anyone who entered the Kingdom would be greater than him because they chose to have communion.

We know good and evil, we are born with that knowledge, and without the Lord we will make mistakes and sin.
So I do not hold with the idea we are sinners before we sin. You will not find a scripture that supports this idea.
Everything points to actions define or mark your spiritual state.

 

[Grace777x70]

Peter..you have just returned to the "straw-man" approach again...go to post 1292 on page 65 for what repentance is in the New Covenant and is demonstrated in preaching the gospel by both Peter and Paul. Read the scriptures again. You are doing the same thing concerning righteousness and doing righteous deeds..

I realize that the scripture conflicts with your religious beliefs that you give to the meaning of the word "repent'.... Indeed in the Old Covenant repentance was an "act" that one did by "turning from sin"....something the Old Covenant demanded....but now in the New Covenant it's turning to Jesus and believing in His finished work on our behalf. This will produce a change in us but it's from His life that is now in us.

This believing in Christ's finished work and the subsequent new creation in Christ....the new man will effect an outward change in our behavior which will reflect in righteous acts- doing good deeds..living lives pleasing to the Lord.

Doing righteous deeds does not make one righteous.

No one is saying that there is no change that comes after a person comes to Christ. I do not have a clue where you get this from? This is your "straw-man".

No one is saying you are not saved. You do not have to "project" things toward yourself.

Righteousness comes from Christ....not us doing righteous acts ( we believe in doing good but the "fruit" of righteousness is from the "root" of being righteous )

(now..if you say that we are saying that it's ok to just go and sin all you what you want - then you have no idea what is being said for some unknown reason )

This phrase "change their mind" is where we have a problem.
The argument is getting clearer. If I say you have to turn away from sin in repentance and believe on Jesus, you are arguing that is salvation by works so one is not saved.

Now what I am saying is simply you need a heart attitude that rejects sin. The fruit of walking in this with Jesus is good works.

Now you are arguing I am not saved by holding to this which is why you want to return to salvation and not sanctification.
I am saying you believe on Jesus to save you from sin and its punishment.

So when I talk about righteousness, you say I am trying earn salvation. You sound like people who do not really think Jesus saved you to be righteous ambassadors of the Kingdom.

The christian church has always stood on the principle of a changed heart and changed behaviour. The focus is off serving self to serving others and the Lord. When did this become self righteousness, and not showing the work of the spirit in our hearts?

You yourselves admit without the Spirit you cannot walk correctly. So surely the testimony of the Spirit is a righteous walk.
But if this is too much for you, where is the power of redemption in your lives, where is your faith that overcomes sin, that sets things aright? You claim such spiritual authority yet seem powerless to claim the victory Jesus bought.

I find it interesting those who claim miracles and great works seem so weak at showing a changed heart with a right mind and life. Which is the true fruit of Jesus, evil deeds or good works.

 

[PeterJens]

You will find the discussion around salvation goes right back to the garden of Eden.
What was Adam & Eve before they eat of the tree of knowledge? A couple who did not know good and evil, who walked in innocence. They were not like us, as they walked with God in the garden. The story is God put the tree there but said eating of it would lead to death. Adam got what he was warned about, and lost fellowship with the Lord.

In someways he did not know it was evil, because he did not think in these terms, nor was he eternal at that point.

We know we inherit adams knowledge and his lack of fellowship with the Lord.

Israel and the law demonstrated we are not righteous separate from God. Jesus showed us Gods heart and nature and invited us to be friends.

Now it is interesting we agree over abiding in Jesus, but the sense of walking in his ways and precepts seems alien to you. You should be worried about this because this is the message of Israel, the law, Jesus and the church. We become overcomers, obedient to the law when we walk in the Spirit. Why is this concept so hard to agree with as it is there before your eyes and written on your heart, if you are walking in the Spirit.

 

[Euphemia]

It is our behaviour that makes us enemies of God. We are born out of communion with the Lord in our hearts.

You could be a real good person and never do anything wrong in the eyes of the world, yet outside of faith in Jesus Christ, your unrenewed mind and heart is nevertheless at enmity with God. He says our good works---our personal sense of righteousness is like filthy rags to Him.

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm sorry Peter...you just don't get what we are saying...

Here is your "straw-man" again = Now it is interesting we agree over abiding in Jesus, but the sense of walking in his ways and precepts seems alien to you

...it seems no matter how many different ways we try to tell you what is being said....you just can't get those pre-conceived thoughts from your head.

You will find the discussion around salvation goes right back to the garden of Eden.
What was Adam & Eve before they eat of the tree of knowledge? A couple who did not know good and evil, who walked in innocence. They were not like us, as they walked with God in the garden. The story is God put the tree there but said eating of it would lead to death. Adam got what he was warned about, and lost fellowship with the Lord.

In someways he did not know it was evil, because he did not think in these terms, nor was he eternal at that point.

We know we inherit adams knowledge and his lack of fellowship with the Lord.

Israel and the law demonstrated we are not righteous separate from God. Jesus showed us Gods heart and nature and invited us to be friends.

Now it is interesting we agree over abiding in Jesus, but the sense of walking in his ways and precepts seems alien to you. You should be worried about this because this is the message of Israel, the law, Jesus and the church. We become overcomers, obedient to the law when we walk in the Spirit. Why is this concept so hard to agree with as it is there before your eyes and written on your heart, if you are walking in the Spirit.

 

[PeterJens]

I realize that the scripture conflicts with your religious beliefs that you give to the meaning of the word "repent'.... Indeed in the Old Covenant repentance was an "act" that one did by "turning from sin"

I think you have created a different gospel. When Jesus says loving God and loving your neighbour is the fulfillment of the law, He meant it. The apostles said exactly the same thing. It was hard for them to accept through Jesus the people of God has extended to include gentiles. Now this makes sense if Israel was just one expression of Gods heart and view of law, but in the expression of Jesus, love does not have the same boundaries.

You want to throw away the basics of morality calling it the old covenant, which is why I reject it 100%.
You call me religious for saying this, but actually you are wrong, it is being a moralist. We are not talking here about faith or even Jesus, but about what are morals, good behaviour, something to aspire to. If you use your version of Jesus to call righteousness hypocracy and vanity you loose everything.

You want to maintain a certain attitude, you are doing....... I am being plain and simple. If you cannot hold simple morality you have nothing.

Scripture conflicts with my beliefs. You are a nutcase. It is you who have changed the word repent to mean something different than apostles would have meant. The reason why Jesus came to Israel because he was the fulfillment of Israel, the prophets and the law. To pervert simple repentance is to subvert the whole message. It is close to blasphemy, reinterpreting the whole of biblical history and its reality. It is no surprise therefore you condemn those who follow the apostles, prophets and Jesus but show yourself as an enemy of God.

As I have said before, a little yeast leavens the whole lump.

 

[PeterJens]

....you just can't get those pre-conceived thoughts from your head.

You say I am not saved because I believe works show the change of heart, redemption, love planted deep within.

You want to claim without turning from sin and believing in Jesus you can be saved.
This miss describes sin and its problem in peoples lives. It is why hyper-grace is a problem.

Sin and its consequences are the issue, which brought Jesus to the cross.
It is not some distant equation.

The problem you say is grace. If you dwell in grace it is so different. Now this is odd because the language is the same but somehow sin have been ignored.

Maybe we should talk about major sin. Murder, stealing, envy, slander, adultery, disrespecting your parents, miss using Gods name, not resting in the Lord, exalting things higher than God. You could count these actions when you do them and know they are sin. Do you do this everyday, every week, every month, every year?

Now Jesus had the rich young man come to him, who said he obeyed the law completely.

“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
Matt 19:20

So being a law keeper is not as hard as you are suggesting. The problem is the why, not the act of doing it.
The young man was justifying himself not serving, and when sacrifice came, he could not follow.

What I am suggesting is repentance is from known, obvious sin. The focus is then on expressing the Lords love to others.
Now by simply not agreeing this is the gospel, I am at a loss what your gospel is. Because this is the bible.

 

[Grace777x70]

I bless you! We have a good, good Father!

...the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you my precious brother!

I think you have created a different gospel. When Jesus says loving God and loving your neighbour is the fulfillment of the law, He meant it. The apostles said exactly the same thing. It was hard for them to accept through Jesus the people of God has extended to include gentiles. Now this makes sense if Israel was just one expression of Gods heart and view of law, but in the expression of Jesus, love does not have the same boundaries.

You want to throw away the basics of morality calling it the old covenant, which is why I reject it 100%.
You call me religious for saying this, but actually you are wrong, it is being a moralist. We are not talking here about faith or even Jesus, but about what are morals, good behaviour, something to aspire to. If you use your version of Jesus to call righteousness hypocracy and vanity you loose everything.

You want to maintain a certain attitude, you are doing....... I am being plain and simple. If you cannot hold simple morality you have nothing.

Scripture conflicts with my beliefs. You are a nutcase. It is you who have changed the word repent to mean something different than apostles would have meant. The reason why Jesus came to Israel because he was the fulfillment of Israel, the prophets and the law. To pervert simple repentance is to subvert the whole message. It is close to blasphemy, reinterpreting the whole of biblical history and its reality. It is no surprise therefore you condemn those who follow the apostles, prophets and Jesus but show yourself as an enemy of God.

As I have said before, a little yeast leavens the whole lump.

 

[james57]

I am reminded of something Charles Spurgeon said in ''All Of Grace.''

Two ministers gave two very different sermons. One was on a sole righteousness of faith in Christ, the other stressed the need for righteous living.
He said they were both correct, for the ministers preached the sermons the different congregations needed to hear

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen!....right believing always leads to right living out of His life in us!

I am reminded of something Charles Spurgeon said in ''All Of Grace.''

Two ministers gave two very different sermons. One was on a sole righteousness of faith in Christ, the other stressed the need for righteous living.
He said they were both correct, for the ministers preached the sermons the different congregations needed to hear

 

[james57]

Amen!....right believing always leads to right living out of His life in us!

I'm not sure if that response is appropriate for my comment, but you take any post you can to promote what you passionately believe-why not
God bless

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If it were true that all sins were forgiven at the cross, precluding a need to seek GOD's forgiveness when sin is committed (as Hyper-Grace teachers claim), then James would have said "if he has committed sins they have been forgiven", and not:

And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins he will be forgiven. James 5:15​

 

[james57]

If it were true that all sins were forgiven at the cross, precluding a need to seek GOD's forgiveness when sin is committed (as Hyper-Grace teachers claim), then James would have said "if he has committed sins they have been forgiven", and not:

And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins he will be forgiven. James 5:15​

Isn't it true all sins are forgiven/ done away with at the cross pertaining to eternal life/ rightstanding before God to attain heaven. Therefore sin cannot affect your place in the family of God. Yet as a child comes before a parent and seeks their forgiveness for offending them so does the christian. The child does not do so to remain in the family but so they may have peace with their parent because they love them. Is it not that way for the christian also?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Isn't it true all sins are forgiven/ done away with at the cross pertaining to eternal life/ rightstanding before God to attain heaven. Therefore sin cannot affect your place in the family of God. Yet as a child comes before a parent and seeks their forgiveness for offending them so does the christian. The child does not do so to remain in the family but so they may have peace with their parent because they love them. Is it not that way for the christian also?

GOD's faithfulness to his covenant is what ensures forgiveness forever. All who become joined to and remain faithful to that covenant are guaranteed forgiveness. But it's like you say, they must seek it actively in a living relationship. The Hyper-Grace doctrine teaches a detached forgiveness, something that occurred in the past. Forgiveness is active and living.

 

[Grace777x70]

Good point..perhaps it has to do with the verse that comes after it..it could be talking about the sins toward each other as stated in verse 15..this verse seems to indicate that that sins can interfere with our health..

James 5:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

The answer could be in the Therefore...

If it were true that all sins were forgiven at the cross, precluding a need to seek GOD's forgiveness when sin is committed (as Hyper-Grace teachers claim), then James would have said "if he has committed sins they have been forgiven", and not:

And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins he will be forgiven. James 5:15​

 

[ladylynn]

Well as you have not clarified your position I will just take it that as you believe Paul had a born again spirit in rom 7:7-11 he is speaking solely as a christian in those verses.

That would mean of course Paul the Pharisee didn't know what lust was, only Paul the christian did

The ten commandments only came to Paul the christian, not Paul the Pharisee

Sin through the law aroused all manner of concupiscence in Paul the christian, not Paul the Pharisee

And sin through the law condemned/slew Paul the christian not Paul the Pharisee

They are interesting ideas, which at least four others appear to agree with you on

Morning James57, Just catching up and see your post. .... Yes, Paul was speaking as a Christian in Rom.7 explaining what he once was and now what he IS in Christ.

He knew what lust was and is but now is not bound to it or it's penalty under the law.
He had a knowledge of life like we all do before we were saved but now we see we are Christians and not under the law but IN Christ and under grace. We are free from the law and it's incessant demands to measure up to be worthy. Christians who are still trying to live under the law for merit before God are still trying to stay married to the law when they are now married to Christ.

 

[ladylynn]

No, thats not true. To walk in righteousness would be to walk according to Gods standard, which would mean we are sinless perfect. Even one sin would cause us to walk in unrighteousness.

The issue is whos standard we are looking at to see what true righteousness is.

I was walk in a way that I am a morally good person compaired to the word, But I can not walk in a way I am moraly good person in Gods standard. Thats why I need saved to begin with.



Well the cross means nothing to you. You think you are perfect and no longer need the cross. (If you do not believe this, then you are even more lost than I thought.) and you do not understand the cross.





So you are teaching perfection..

Good luck with that. Start studying Gods word, and realising what true sin is, You will clearly see how sinful you really are, then maybe God can start to change you as you start to rely on God and not your flesh.



Na, I have no excuse, No one has an excuse. I sin only because in a moment of time, I take my eyes of God..

But I guess people like you never do this? Ever??




You do not understand the cross. or the flesh.. Thats all I can fathom by what your saying.

It's obvious what Peter is saying - we walk in our own strength and then God will see our good intentions and add to that and we will be in good shape....YIKES>>>NOOOO>>>> STOP>>>>>>GO BACK>>>>>>>>Peter.... You need the 'righteousness' of Christ FIRST before you begin your journey. Before you get saved all your righteousness's are as filthy rags. You can't add those awful rags with Christ. It is HIS righteousness ALONE that will give you standing before God.

 

[ladylynn]

Righteousness and judgement

We are called to walk in righteousness, but we are judged under grace, because we cannot judge ourselves and rely of Gods forgiveness and mercy to cover over our sins and failures.

This creates a tension between the goal and our need to change and be sanctified. What I am aware of in this walk is at the start we have serious problems and it is clearer where the issues are and what we need to do. Later it is much less obvious, and we often fall into self condemnation rather than rejoicing in our walk.

The problem I have is when people walk in denial of this landscape and the realities of where the failure is and our response. I confess some days I awake with what I would say are sinful convictions or attitudes, but I can choose to have them lift and not define who I am. What is strange is how these feelings or attitudes can change, and are a choice, so it is not obvious how you define who and what you are clearly. But this is where I would differentiate between sinful actions and the precursors or attitudes that lead to sin.

YIKES!!!! NOOOO., First of all 'Righteousness' is a gift we get when we are saved.,Jesus gives us HIS righteousness because He took our sin and nailed it to the cross with alllllll it's consequences of separation from God.,and death. , and He paid for alllll of our sins so we stand whole and righteous before God at all times. We are now sons of the Most High God. Christ is our holiness, Christ is our sanctification.

Grace doesn't judge., Grace is unmerited unearned LOVE and favor and mercy. We do not deserve it but because of Jesus we got it. We only are walking in grace because Jesus has given us a new identity of Sons.

 

[james57]

Morning James57, Just catching up and see your post. .... Yes, Paul was speaking as a Christian in Rom.7 explaining what he once was and now what he IS in Christ.

Paul say s in Romans 7 the Ten Commandments came to him, and through that knowledge sin consciousness was born, and he knew what lust was

Did the above occur when he was a Pharisee or Christian??

Paul said in rom 7 sin manifested itself in him. Through the law sin wrought all manner of concupiscence in Paul. Did this happen when he was a Christian or Pharisee?

Paul said he was slain by sin through the law. Was that as a Christian or Pharisee?