"I ask then why do people say Israel must go through the Tribulation?" Jeremiah 30.6. paraphrased.

[reneweddaybyday]

There is neither Jew nor Gentile in the new age of Grace.

within the body of Christ (the church) there is neither Jew nor gentile:

Galatians 3:27-28 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


however, God makes plain that He considers mankind as follows:

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God

Jews = Jews who are not born again
gentiles = non-Jews who are not born again
church of God = comprised of Jews and gentiles who are born again wherein there is neither Jew nor Greek ... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus

From Clarke's Commentary (relating to 1 Corinthians 10:32):

Scrupulously avoid giving any cause of offense either to the unconverted Jews or the unconverted Gentiles, so as to prejudice them against Christianity: nor to the Church of God, made up of converts from the above parties.​

.

 

[HeIsHere]

within the body of Christ (the church) there is neither Jew nor gentile:

Galatians 3:27-28 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


however, God makes plain that He considers mankind as follows:

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God

Jews = Jews who are not born again
gentiles = non-Jews who are not born again
church of God = comprised of Jews and gentiles who are born again wherein there is neither Jew nor Greek ... for ye are all one in Christ Jesus

From Clarke's Commentary (relating to 1 Corinthians 10:32):

Scrupulously avoid giving any cause of offense either to the unconverted Jews or the unconverted Gentiles, so as to prejudice them against Christianity: nor to the Church of God, made up of converts from the above parties.​

.

Yes agree, thank you for clarifying and adding important detail.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yes agree, thank you for clarifying and adding important detail.

... hope/pray you have a blessed day today!!!
.

 

[Cameron143]

But much of end time prophecy does deal with Israel and the promises God has yet to keep to the Jews.

That's the popular view at the moment. It's not what I believe.

 

[Cameron143]

The one does not negate the other. Jesus is the key to the whole Bible, but we are talking about the future of Israel. And Jerusalem is at the core of all prophecies pertaining to Israel. Jerusalem has a very special place in God's plans.

That's the popular view these days. But it's not what I believe the Bible teaches.

 

[GaryA]

Jeremiah 30:

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

This verse is the only place this phrase is found in the Bible - and, it is referring specifically to Armageddon.

It is not [general/generic] 'tribulation'.

It is not [the] 'Great Tribulation'.

It is the specific 'event' referred to in all of the verses in the 'Armageddon' column of the chart/table on this web page:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

Armageddon occurs after the Second Coming of Christ (soon after the time of His appearance).

God does not "deal with Israel" until Armageddon. (And, of course, afterward.)

The 'Dry Bones' prophecy will be fulfilled by Christ after His Second Coming. (It was not fulfilled in 1948 or 1967.)

Israel-as-a-nation still has a part to play during the Millennium. And, in no way is this in conflict with the 'Church' (the body of Christ) or the New Covenant.

Do not conflate what the verse above is saying and the salvation of the souls of the Jews - they are two completely separate things.

 

[GaryA]

Modern day Israel is not the Israel of scripture.

I agree with this statement. Modern-day Israel is not "true" [biblical] Israel. And, of course, I am referring to national/political "governmental" Israel. That does not mean that there are no "true" Jews living there. I am talking about the modern-day 'State' of Israel - which is a real nation - but, according to modern-day 'political-play-book' definitions and not historical Israel.

 

[Nehemiah6]

That's the popular view these days. But it's not what I believe the Bible teaches.

Well prove it. We don't go by popular views but by divine revelation. So show us from Scripture that Jerusalem has absolutely no future.

 

[GaryA]

Before that there is no question that both modern day and Israel and Jewry worldwide will face the Tribulation.

Indications are - that "everyone" will face it...

End-times 'tribulation', 'Great Tribulation', etc. (whatever you want to call it) - is about Christiandom. Jews are included by default because of the "common denominator" that/which is God; however, it is not about them. From a biblical historical perspective (i.e. - Olivet Discourse), it is about 'tribulation' on a much larger scale than just Jerusalem/Israel.

The Olivet Discourse is about the 'tribulation' of Christians. While it does make specific reference to the events of circa 70 A.D. (which concerns both 'Jews' and 'Christians') - in the overall picture - it is [more generally] about the 'tribulation' of Christians - throughout history.

Please DO NOT misunderstand what I am saying. Yes - a part of the Olivet Discourse has specific regard to the Jews (e.g. - destruction of the temple); however, in the overall picture of the prophecy as a whole, it is about the 'tribulation' of Christians.

In other words, it is more generally about Christians and less specifically about Jews. The 'target' audience is Christians.

On the other hand...

Armageddon is about Israel.

 

[Cameron143]

Well prove it. We don't go by popular views but by divine revelation. So show us from Scripture that Jerusalem has absolutely no future.

Jesus may well appear in Jerusalem again. That's not my point. My point is that a simple reading of Revelation 1:1-7 has the timing of most of prophecy being fulfilled in the first century.
This post isn't about that. So I simply gave my view in response to those who inquired and was trying not to derail this post.
If you would like to start a post about the first 7 verses of Revelation 1, I'll be glad to chime in.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Jesus may well appear in Jerusalem again. That's not my point. My point is that a simple reading of Revelation 1:1-7 has the timing of most of prophecy being fulfilled in the first century.

That is an incorrect interpretation. And one does not stop with one Bible passage to the exclusion of all the others.

So here is Jerusalem in Revelation and this is a prophecy for the future during the reign of the Antichrist: And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Rev 11:1-4)

So let's ask and answer some pertinent questions:
1. Did John see a future vision of the temple in Jerusalem? Yes
2. Was he asked to measure the true temple only? Yes
3. Is Jerusalem called "the holy city"? Yes
4. Would the Gentiles desecrate the temple court? Yes
5. Is forty two months equal to 1,260 days or 3 1/2 years? Yes
6. Is this the time allotted to the Antichrist for his reign? Yes
7. Does God send two witnesses/prophets to Jerusalem to preach to the Jews (and the whole world) during the reign of the Antichrist? Yes

Now this is still a desecrated Jerusalem. It is up to you now to go and study the OT prophecies regarding REDEEMED AND RESTORED Jerusalem.

 

[GaryA]

God does not "deal with Israel" until Armageddon. (And, of course, afterward.)

I meant this in a particular sense; however, I may should not have worded it quite this way. My apologies if it was/is confusing or misleading.

Armageddon is about Israel.

The time of the Two Witnesses is also [largely] about Israel. And, it is before the SCoC while Armageddon is after the SCoC.

And, the idea here is - God 'pleads' with them at the time of the Two Witnesses and 'deals' with them at the time of Armageddon.

In other words, God 'pleads' with them through the testimony of the Two Witnesses and 'deals' with them through the experience of Armageddon.

 

[Cameron143]

That is an incorrect interpretation. And one does not stop with one Bible passage to the exclusion of all the others.

So here is Jerusalem in Revelation and this is a prophecy for the future during the reign of the Antichrist: And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Rev 11:1-4)

So let's ask and answer some pertinent questions:
1. Did John see a future vision of the temple in Jerusalem? Yes
2. Was he asked to measure the true temple only? Yes
3. Is Jerusalem called "the holy city"? Yes
4. Would the Gentiles desecrate the temple court? Yes
5. Is forty two months equal to 1,260 days or 3 1/2 years? Yes
6. Is this the time allotted to the Antichrist for his reign? Yes
7. Does God send two witnesses/prophets to Jerusalem to preach to the Jews (and the whole world) during the reign of the Antichrist? Yes

Now this is still a desecrated Jerusalem. It is up to you now to go and study the OT prophecies regarding REDEEMED AND RESTORED Jerusalem.

All those things easily explained by a first century coming. You are simply predisposed to see it otherwise. You have been taught a certain way and you are comfortable with that.

 

[GaryA]

Jesus may well appear in Jerusalem again. That's not my point. My point is that a simple reading of Revelation 1:1-7 has the timing of most of prophecy being fulfilled in the first century.
This post isn't about that. So I simply gave my view in response to those who inquired and was trying not to derail this post.
If you would like to start a post about the first 7 verses of Revelation 1, I'll be glad to chime in.

You seem to be a very likeable fellow, brother - so, please do not take this to be harsh in any way (not really my intent) - and, please forgive me if I do not use enough tact in getting my point across...

Rather, I hope that somehow you will find it to be edifying in some way.

Would you (and others actually - by no means am I trying to single you out) please learn to say 'thread' when you mean 'thread' and 'post' when you mean 'post'.

The whole-thing-with-a-title is a thread. A single 'entry' into that thread is a post.

The 'OP' - or, opening/original post - is a post; albeit, it is the first post of the thread.

I know that sometimes people talk about "making a new post" (meaning, 'thread'). And, I know that the origin of the use of that phrase is historical. Nonetheless, after the initial post is made - and, thread is created and exists - 'thread' and 'post' mean two different things. It is [then] not 'proper' (in modern 'internet' terms) to call the whole thread a 'post'.

Please call the thread 'thread' and a post 'post'.

Thank you.

 

[Cameron143]

You seem to be a very likeable fellow, brother - so, please do not take this to be harsh in any way (not really my intent) - and, please forgive me if I do not use enough tact in getting my point across...

Rather, I hope that somehow you will find it to be edifying in some way.

Would you (and others actually - by no means am I trying to single you out) please learn to say 'thread' when you mean 'thread' and 'post' when you mean 'post'.

The whole-thing-with-a-title is a thread. A single 'entry' into that thread is a post.

The 'OP' - or, opening/original post - is a post; albeit, it is the first post of the thread.

I know that sometimes people talk about "making a new post" (meaning, 'thread'). And, I know that the origin of the use of that phrase is historical. Nonetheless, after the initial post is made - and, thread is created and exists - 'thread' and 'post' mean two different things. It is [then] not 'proper' (in modern 'internet' terms) to call the whole thread a 'post'.

Please call the thread 'thread' and a post 'post'.

Thank you.

I'll certainly try. I aim to please. But sometimes I'll get it wrong. Hope you are the longsuffering type.

 

[Mathetes70]

The nation of Israel was not destroyed as a nation in 70AD (false doctrine of replacement theology) & physical descendants of the nation of Israel continue to exist all over the world to which God scattered them & have been returning to the land in Palestine that God promised He would do in just about every prophet in the OT (too many to quote here). There is again a nation of Israel. The Apostle James wrote to ALL 12 TRIBES of the nation of Israel in the Diaspora in the NT, that were already scattered in the Gentile nations, besides the the nation of Israel in Palestine. The apostle Peter also wrote to the tribes in the Diaspora as well. The apostle Paul also alludes to all 12 tribes existing at the time of speech to King Agrippa, which were scattered. Many descendants of the nation of Israel were already scattered at the time of 70AD & descendants were STILL in Jerusalem up until the purge of 133AD. From the end of the Bar Kokhba Revolt (135 C.E.) until the capture of Jerusalem by the Muslims (638), the Jews were prohibited from entering that city and its boundaries.

Simply driving out the inhabitants within the land of Israel would NOT destroy the nation as a whole, that were scattered all over the world. One can see this in Acts 2 at Pentecost when physical descendants of the nation of Israel came to Jerusalem for the feast from countries all over the world.

It appears some people might not know their Bible that well nor BELIEVE what God says is true & the promises He WILL KEEP to the descendants of the nation of Israel.

Jer 31:35-37 THUS SAYS YAHWEH--who gives the sun for light by day, who sets in order the moon and stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar—the LORD of Hosts is His name: 36“ONLY IF THIS FIXED ORDER DEPARTED FROM My presence, declares the LORD, would ISRAEL'S DESCENDANTS EVER CEASE TO BE A NATION BEFORE ME.”

37THIS IS WHAT YAHWEH SAYS: “ONLY IF the heavens above could be measured and the foundations of the earth below searched out
would I reject all of Israel’s descendants because of all they have done.

Jer 33:10,11,19-26 THIS IS WHAT YAHWEH SAYS: In this place you say is a wasteland without man or beast, in the cities of Judah & in the streets of Jerusalem that are deserted—inhabited by neither man nor beast—there will be heard again 11the sounds of joy & gladness, the voices of the bride & bridegroom & the voices of those bringing thank offerings into the house of the LORD, saying: ‘Give thanks to the LORD of Hosts, for the LORD is good; His loving devotion endures forever.’ For I will restore the land from captivityd as in former times, says the LORD. And the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah:

20“THIS IS WHAT YAHWEH SAYS: If you can break My covenant with the day & My covenant with the night, so that day & night cease to occupy their appointed time, 21then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant & with My ministers the Levites who are priests, so that David will not have a son to reign on his throne. 22As the hosts of heaven cannot be counted & as the sand on the seashore cannot be measured, so too will I multiply the descendants of My servant David & the Levites who minister before Me.”

23Moreover, THE WORD OF YAHWEH CAME TO JEREMIAH: 24“Have you not noticed what these people are saying: ‘The LORD has rejected the two families He had chosen’? So they despise My people and no longer regard them AS A NATION. 25This is what the LORD says: If I have not established My covenant with the day & the night & the fixed order of heaven & earth, 26then I would also reject the descendants of Jacob & of My servant David, so as not to take from his descendants rulers over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. For I will restore them from captivity & will have compassion on them.”

Isaiah 61:8,9 For I, YAHWEH, love justice & hate robbery & sin. I will repay them because of my faithfulness; I will make a permanent covenant with them. 9 Their descendants WILL BE KNOWN among the nations, their offspring among the peoples. All who see them will recognize that the Lord has blessed them.”

Ezek 37:13,14,18-22,24-38 And you shall know that I am YAHWEH, when I open your graves & raise you from your graves, O my people. 14And I will put my Spirit within you & you shall live & I will place you IN YOUR OWN LAND. Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken & I WILL DO IT, declares the LORD.” I Will Be Their God; They Shall Be My People.

18And when your people say to you, ‘Will you not tell us what you mean by these?’ 19say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and THE TRIBES OF ISRAEL ASSOCIATED WITH HIM. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand.

20When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, 21then say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL FROM AMONG THE NATIONS WHICH THEY HAVE GONE & will gather them from all around & BRING THEM TO THEIR OWN LAND. 22And I will make them ONE NATION IN THE LAND, ON THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL.

24“My servant David shall be king over them & they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules & be careful to obey my statutes. 25THEY WILL DWELL IN THE LAND THAT I GAVE TO MY SERVANT JACOB, WHERE YOUR FATHERS LIVED. They & their children & their children’s children shall dwell there forever & David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land & multiply them & will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27My dwelling place shall be with them & I will be their God & they shall be my people. 28Then THE NATIONS will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies ISRAEL, when my sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.”

The living God KEEPS HIS PROMISES! He does not lie. The physical decendants of Israel were not destroyed but continue in the world today in various countries & they continue to move & dwell in part of the promised land in the present day of Israel, united descendants once again the the land that the Eternal God promised to Abraham, Isaac & Jacob.

 

[GaryA]

Hope you are the longsuffering type.

Oh, yes - yes, indeed - for many years on CC...

 

[GaryA]

So here is Jerusalem in Revelation and this is a prophecy for the future during the reign of the Antichrist: And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. (Rev 11:1-4)

So let's ask and answer some pertinent questions:
1. Did John see a future vision of the temple in Jerusalem? Yes
2. Was he asked to measure the true temple only? Yes
3. Is Jerusalem called "the holy city"? Yes
4. Would the Gentiles desecrate the temple court? Yes
5. Is forty two months equal to 1,260 days or 3 1/2 years? Yes
6. Is this the time allotted to the Antichrist for his reign? Yes
7. Does God send two witnesses/prophets to Jerusalem to preach to the Jews (and the whole world) during the reign of the Antichrist? Yes

Revelation 11:

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. 2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Verse 1 and verse 2 - up to the colon - is present-day to John - at the time of the vision. It is not referring to a 'future' event involving a 'future' temple.

Verse 2 - after the colon - is future to John.

Keep in mind that before-the-colon is talking about the temple while after-the-colon is talking about the city.

 

[posthuman]

Jeremiah 30:

7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

This verse is the only place this phrase is found in the Bible - and, it is referring specifically to Armageddon.

It is not [general/generic] 'tribulation'.

It is not [the] 'Great Tribulation'.

in Matthew 24 Christ refers to a time of great trouble, more than has ever been or ever will be at any other time, i.e. "none like it"

is Jeremiah 30 speaking of a time completely unlike it?
Or exactly like it?

a time of great distress and persecution, which has never been before and never will again, centering around the Jewish people and featuring the LORD being with them to ultimately save them from being utterly destroyed?

 

[posthuman]

The Olivet Discourse is about the 'tribulation' of Christians.

Matthew 24:16
then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

only the ones in Israel?

Matthew 24:20
And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.

only the legalist Jewish roots Christians in Israel?