"I ask then why do people say Israel must go through the Tribulation?" Jeremiah 30.6. paraphrased.

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Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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Thanks for your thoughts and the articles offered @cv5 and @GaryA. Despite your differences in perspective, it seems you do both agree on the point that the current state of Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles,' and so 'the time of the Gentiles is not yet fulfilled, nor will be except when Christ returns.
cv5 mentioned:
Yes, it is tempting to see it that way (and at one time I was leaning that way myself).
I think that was the view I was trying to clarify, but I'm not sure why, nor exactly why it is tempting to see it that way. For some reason, though, I'd have to agree it tempts me to see it that way, even if it's only to understand why. :unsure:
I'm sure I'll continue to think on it.
But after I rest my mind and pick it up again after the full week ahead of me. G'nite and hagwe, Gbaky.
 

Evmur

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I’m certain to be accused of heresy for this, but here goes…..

Believers are the BODY of Christ who join in marriage to the BRIDE of Christ, Israel.

God promised to punish her, redeem her, and marry her (as a remnant, 144,000).

The scripture absolutely says this…
I just wanted to offer that, since I’ll quite likely be silenced by people who have phobias against different viewpoints…
It's alright, it's not quite orthodox, I do not quite agree with you but at least you have put some thought into it.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Thanks for your thoughts and the articles offered @cv5 and @GaryA. Despite your differences in perspective, it seems you do both agree on the point that the current state of Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles,' and so 'the time of the Gentiles is not yet fulfilled, nor will be except when Christ returns.
cv5 mentioned:

I think that was the view I was trying to clarify, but I'm not sure why, nor exactly why it is tempting to see it that way. For some reason, though, I'd have to agree it tempts me to see it that way, even if it's only to understand why. :unsure:
I'm sure I'll continue to think on it.
But after I rest my mind and pick it up again after the full week ahead of me. G'nite and hagwe, Gbaky.
Keep in mind....the term "end of the age" so asked by the disciples at the Olivet discourse is (drumroll)....

The age of the gentiles aka "times of the gentiles".

Which of course, in this same discourse, proves quite unequivocally to be the Second Coming.

Really any other opinion is unfounded folly.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Keep in mind....the term "end of the age" so asked by the disciples at the Olivet discourse is (drumroll)....

The age of the gentiles aka "times of the gentiles".

Which of course, in this same discourse, proves quite unequivocally to be the Second Coming.

Really any other opinion is unfounded folly.
"In this same discourse, the answer to the question of what event terminates "the end of the age" proves quite unequivocally to be the Second Coming."
 

GaryA

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@cv5 - you seem to be concerned that someone will "counter" your statement. I personally [essentially] agree with you on this specific point. So, if it is me you are worried about - so much that you feel you have to "burn" what you believe into everyone's mind before I have a chance to respond - then, rest-at-ease brother - you are worrying for nothing.

Revelation 11:

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

To me, the last phrase in/of this verse is suggesting the very last moment in time when people are saved before the Second Coming of Christ. And, I believe that it is a short time after that when Christ will appear.
 

cv5

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@cv5 - you seem to be concerned that someone will "counter" your statement. I personally [essentially] agree with you on this specific point. So, if it is me you are worried about - so much that you feel you have to "burn" what you believe into everyone's mind before I have a chance to respond - then, rest-at-ease brother - you are worrying for nothing.

Revelation 11:

13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

To me, the last phrase in/of this verse is suggesting the very last moment in time when people are saved before the Second Coming of Christ. And, I believe that it is a short time after that when Christ will appear.
"Short" being a relative term. There are only a maximum of 7 years to work with anyways.

Rev 9:5
And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Rev 11:3
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 12:6
And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Rev 15:1
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 16:17
And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

Rev 16:19
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Rev 17:12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

The end of "the times of the gentiles":

Rev 19:19
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 19:21
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
 

GaryA

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"Short" being a relative term.
I am actually thinking of a timeframe of seconds, minutes, or hours...

I could be wrong; however, I am thinking - after the last soul who will be saved is saved - why prolong anything? In other words, there is no reason for Jesus to wait any longer after the last soul is saved.
 

GRACE_ambassador

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Feb 22, 2021
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I am actually thinking of a timeframe of seconds, minutes, or hours...

I could be wrong; however, I am thinking - after the last soul who will be saved is saved - why prolong anything? In other words, there is no reason for Jesus to wait any longer after the last soul is saved.
One Exception might be the last 'chance for a crown'?:

To allow the planter to water with One 'last seed'? Have the new-born babe memorize:

2Ti_4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,
which The LORD, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and
not to me only, but unto All them also that love His Appearing."

And, Then, we may all be Caught Up in: God's Great GRACE Departure! ♫ 😇 ↑

Amen.
 

GaryA

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One Exception might be the last 'chance for a crown'?:

To allow the planter to water with One 'last seed'? Have the new-born babe memorize:

2Ti_4:8 "Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness,
which The LORD, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and
not to me only, but unto All them also that love His Appearing."

And, Then, we may all be Caught Up in: God's Great GRACE Departure! ♫ 😇 ↑

Amen.
Everyone who is saved will receive a crown of righteousness - which has absolutely nothing to do with works - it has everything to do with being transformed into a 'glorified' being.

The crown of righteousness is not a 'reward', except for believing and following God/Christ - if you want to think of it that way.

Everyone who "makes it" into 'eternal righteousness' will receive it.
 

GaryA

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Everyone who "makes it" into 'eternal righteousness' will receive it.
That is what it is all about. And, it is not about anything else.

It is not about how good you were so that you could get it.

All you have to do to get it is be a believer when you die.
 

GaryA

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Whatever 'rewards' that you get are something else altogether. Don't conflate or confuse the two very different things.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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The first two words I understand - however, I need a translation of the other two... :unsure:
They are acronyms for "Have a great weekend" and "God bless and keep you." And I see that God, indeed, did bless and kept you, and also trust that you did have a great weekend. :)
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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well speaking of the temple in Revelation 11, that whole section is prefaced by John eating a scroll, then the angel guiding him through his visions saying this:
No its not, Rev. 10 has zero to do with Rev. 11, the biggest problem I see is people do not understand Prophecy in general and especially the symbolism of the book of Revelation.

In a quick overview, Rev. 1 is about Jesus' eternal glory, Rev. 2 & 3 is about the Church Age. Everything after this is about the 70th week on earth and/or the Church in heaven during the 70th week. Just like Daniel it is not in chronological order, it has an order to it if you know how to pick it out.

Rev. 4, 5, and 7 are all happening before God's Wrath fall in the middle of the week, the Seals are not Wrath, they point t God's wrath which only comes once the 7 Wax Seals are broken. How does Satan confuse us? He takes one power point like the Seals and conveys they as God's judgment, when they only point to what is coming when the judgment hits. From then on he has most everyone confused.

The Wrath of God is only shown in real time in Rev. 8, 9 and 16 (15 really goes with 16)

Rev. 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 17, 18 and most of 19 (not counting the Marriage Supper portion after Jesus returns) are "Parenthetical Citation Chapters". They tell of ongoing things inside the exact same timelines as God's Wrath. The Anti-Christ rules for 42 months in Rev. 13, Satan is cast down and chases the woman for 42 months in Rev. 12. The A.C. kills off all Religion in Rev. 17 thus False Religion (The Harlot) also. We see God's Plagues against the whole world (Babylon) in Rev. 18.

Meanwhile Rev. 10 is understood easier when we realize their are only 7 Judgments and 7 = Divine Completion, the Seals are unlocking the Sealed Scroll Judgments, the 7 Vials emit from the 7th Trump. Now Rev. 10 makes sense, after the 7 Thunders (Trumps) sound time will be no more [as we know it], meaning Jesus takes over. This is why swallowing the book was both bitter and sweet, Bitter because a billion or billions of people will have to be killed, and because Judgment brings us into an everlasting relationship with God/Jesus.

Revelation 10:11
"You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings."

so Revelation 11, immediately following, seems to me to definitely be about future events.
future meaning, after around 95AD - because i think the mountain of evidence is firmly against a 67-69AD date for the book.
John was prophesying with this testament, and he no doubt preached to those on the Island, but Jesus was speaking about the book of Revelation being a Prophetic Utterance unto the nations. I do not think John is one of the two-witnesses. And if he is one of the two-witnesses, that explains it also, but I think its Elijah and Moses as seen at the transfiguration.

Rev. 11 is merely the Two-witnesses having a parameter placed on them, as Jesus did, they come only to the Jews, that is what the "Measurements mean" They are to go to only the Jews who worship in the Temple. So, Rev. 10 covers 42 months, Rev. 11 actually covers 1335 days, the Two-witnesses are the 1335 blessing.
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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No its not, Rev. 10 has zero to do with Rev. 11
John eats a scroll and then nothing immediately following that has anything whatsoever to do with that happening?

really?

You know that the chapter divisions are neither original to the text nor inspired, right?

so you're saying the very next paragraph of the book has nothing at all to do with the preceding paragraph?
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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No its not, Rev. 10 has zero to do with Rev. 11, the biggest problem I see is people do not understand Prophecy in general and especially the symbolism of the book of Revelation.
Every chapter in Revelation in is chronological sequence (barring a few parenthetical passages). Ch 10 says time will be no longer. It is preparing us for the "end if the age". Revelation 11 and 12 are within the reign of the Antichrist (described in Revelation 13). And so on. Getting back to the symbolism of the book, it is generally explained or inferred through other Scriptures. What is that sharp sword in the mouth of Christ other than the Word God? Is the Word of God not described as sharp sword elsewhere? People make a big deal out of the symbolic language. In any event Revelation is not for the novice.