I cannot understand the need for the crucifixion-and i think it’s holding my Christian life back

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Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
1,134
205
63
#41
Hello,i have been a struggling Christian for years (I read/study the bible daily and pray and do my best where I can) i do not attend church here in the uk 🇬🇧 because of the middle class snobbery that exists within in them. As regards the story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ-i believe it without doubt 💯 % but i still-despite discipleship and much praying and bible reading-cannot see the purpose of it. Why was gods son nailed to a cross-tortured and humiliated to get a message across. Why did god not just send his beloved son with a message and a warning-“this is your last chance-we’re wiping the slate clean but you must follow me“. Why the need for Jesus’ blood 🩸 why the need for such a barbaric death ordered by his own father-the merciful lord got. I just don’t get it. Jesus didn’t need to be murdered to get me to follow him. Please help me I’m confused 🤷‍♂️
We have all sinned. Therefore the cost for our sin is 1) bodily death, and 2) spiritual death.

Jesus came down to earth and lived a sinless life. Therefore he deserved neither bodily or spiritual death. However, Jesus died a bodily death in exchange so that we will receive spiritual life / avoid spiritual death.

Jesus died (bodily) so we might live (spiritually)

The whole bible is a revelation of Jesus Christ. The whole Bible is about the gift of spiritual life.

When Jesus says, "I am the bread of life" and "I am the living waters", he is saying he is our spiritual food and drink. He alone provides for our our spiritual sustenance. Nothing else will sustain us spiritually.

Jesus paid the price for our spiritual death at the cross. Does this make any sense?
 

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2019
1,134
205
63
#42
Hello,i have been a struggling Christian for years (I read/study the bible daily and pray and do my best where I can) i do not attend church here in the uk 🇬🇧 because of the middle class snobbery that exists within in them.
We by our sin nature are hostile to God, and have rebelled against him. Therefore it is perfectly normal for you and I to be questioning God's goodness. But we continue to seek God because we both want and need peace with Him. God has provided one way to peace with him. That is through believing in the suffering, death and resurrection of his one and only Son, Jesus Christ. Yes, this is strange, but all true. We must surrender completely to God and to his ways. Keep trying and asking and seeking. God provides us even with the faith to believe. We must be given the faith to believe. It is not by our works that we are redeemed.

Also, I suspect many churches in England and the whole world are false churches. Your issue with these churches is merited, but do not judge God based on these false churches.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,055
1,898
113
#43
Here is the history. We were created to live without knowing any sin, and the first people created (Adam and Eve) were to not touch sin represented by what scripture calls an apple tree. They decided they would be like God if they knew sin and let it be a part of them and the world. Humans can not live with sin and be with God, sin means death.

God did something so humans could escape death, in eternal time God gave his son. When Christ was crucified he paid for our sins. This was symbolized by sacrificing the blood of animals for over 4,000 years and it worked by saints sleeping until Christ was crucified.

Now, if we repent of our sins and accept that Christ paid for them we have eternal life, we live with God forever.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
38,119
15,059
113
#44
Here is the history. We were created to live without knowing any sin, and the first people created (Adam and Eve) were to not touch sin represented by what scripture calls an apple tree. They decided they would be like God if they knew sin and let it be a part of them and the world. Humans can not live with sin and be with God, sin means death.

God did something so humans could escape death, in eternal time God gave his son. When Christ was crucified he paid for our sins. This was symbolized by sacrificing the blood of animals for over 4,000 years and it worked by saints sleeping until Christ was crucified.

Now, if we repent of our sins and accept that Christ paid for them we have eternal life, we live with God forever.
No apple tree is mentioned in Genesis :oops: It is *properly* called the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,247
3,682
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#45
The brutality that our LORD and Savior went through up until His death is also a reminder what wicked hearts we truly have before He saved us...
We have all placed our Lord on the cross , and yet through His death , burial and resurrection , He gave us the gift of life Amen...
What an Amazing Almighty God we serve Amen...
...xox...
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
2,530
113
#46
The brutality that our LORD and Savior went through up until His death is also a reminder what wicked hearts we truly have before He saved us...
We have all placed our Lord on the cross , and yet through His death , burial and resurrection , He gave us the gift of life Amen...
What an Amazing Almighty God we serve Amen...
...xox...
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: (...)
Luke 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

The Way is foreign to human logic.
 
Apr 2, 2020
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#47
Call me a silly old fool but i do want most people to go to heaven. As a fellow Christian ✝️ said to me when i asked him about the evil 😈 in the word “there is more of gods love 💕 than there is evil in the world” As for the crucifixion-i accept it but am baffled by it 🩸
I struggled immensely with the crucifixion early in my journey of faith. What I came to realize is that it was not the death, burial, and resurrection I was struggling with but the theory of penal substitution. As I came to understand the cross more as a healing event bringing victory over death it started to make more sense. The inhumanity, brutality, and injustice of it is integral to it because God submitted Himself to the greatest evil the enemy had to offer so that He may overcome the enemy through death.
Unfortunately starting in the 10th century the theories of atonement began to take hold looking at the cross as satisfying something in God rather than altering something in us. This eventually led to the theory that God's wrath was satisfied on the cross as a result of the breaking of His law, and this has become the dominant theme by which it is presented.
Perhaps your understanding of the crucifixion is too heavily influenced by the atonement theology you've been taught and another one may make more sense of it, as there are a number of alternatives to penal substitution.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
3,247
3,682
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#48
Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: (...)
Luke 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.

The Way is foreign to human logic.
How wonderful it is to know we have eternal life , and the Spirit of Truth has opened up our hearts and minds to the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ when once we were blind , deaf & spiritually dead...
...xox...
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
2,530
113
#49
I struggled immensely with the crucifixion early in my journey of faith. What I came to realize is that it was not the death, burial, and resurrection I was struggling with but the theory of penal substitution. As I came to understand the cross more as a healing event bringing victory over death it started to make more sense. The inhumanity, brutality, and injustice of it is integral to it because God submitted Himself to the greatest evil the enemy had to offer so that He may overcome the enemy through death.
Unfortunately starting in the 10th century the theories of atonement began to take hold looking at the cross as satisfying something in God rather than altering something in us. This eventually led to the theory that God's wrath was satisfied on the cross as a result of the breaking of His law, and this has become the dominant theme by which it is presented.
Perhaps your understanding of the crucifixion is too heavily influenced by the atonement theology you've been taught and another one may make more sense of it, as there are a number of alternatives to penal substitution.
I think this has a lot to do with how people understand God's wrath. Many people think God is petty angry like a man. God is such a vast, cosmic, impartial being, so I wouldn't equate our emotions with His, there is a certain likeness so we would be able to relate to God, yet His ways aren't ours because He has a different nature from us.

What is really God's wrath? The irresistible weight of impending tempest force as cosmic recompense for breaking God's golden principle, amassing weight of death upon the life of a sinner as if pulled by the impartial gravity in the invisible realm, is that not His wrath? Agape love is also a lot like gravity, Jesus draws all people to Him. But the Word is like a two edged sword so "love is strong as death" just like in Song of Solomon. How do you tell a thing in a simple way, that even a man from 5000 years B.C. can easily understand. So God uses us as a referent system because we're made in His image but we are not Him.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
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#50
first of all, Jesus had to 'fulfill' ALL of the scriptures in 'the Law and the prophets and the writings' -
LUKE 24:44.
And He said unto them,
These are the Words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled,
which were written in the Law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning Me.
45.
Then opened He their 'understanding', that they might understand the scriptures,
46.
And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47.
And that 'repentance and remission of sins' should be preached in His Name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem -
'there are SO MANY RESOURCES, concerning this subject' -
all one has to do is to go to a site such as 'blue letter Bible' and they have basically done the Work for you,
as far as 'putting the scriptures together' -
it is UP TO US to BRING our understanding UP TO a 'road to Emmaus' experience -
as it is written:
ACTS. 17:11.
These were 'more noble' than those in Thessalonica, in that they received The Word with all readiness of mind,
and 'searched the scriptures 'daily', whether those things were so'.

let us not be remiss in our searching for God's Love and Instructions - may we 'deny ourselves' and learn
His ways above our own...
 
Apr 2, 2020
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#51
I think this has a lot to do with how people understand God's wrath. Many people think God is petty angry like a man. God is such a vast, cosmic, impartial being, so I wouldn't equate our emotions with His, there is a certain likeness so we would be able to relate to God, yet His ways aren't ours because He has a different nature from us.

What is really God's wrath? The irresistible weight of impending tempest force as cosmic recompense for breaking God's golden principle, amassing weight of death upon the life of a sinner as if pulled by the impartial gravity in the invisible realm, is that not His wrath? Agape love is also a lot like gravity, Jesus draws all people to Him. But the Word is like a two edged sword so "love is strong as death" just like in Song of Solomon. How do you tell a thing in a simple way, that even a man from 5000 years B.C. can easily understand. So God uses us as a referent system because we're made in His image but we are not Him.
While there may be some element of misunderstanding God's wrath, I think there's something fundamentally wrong with placing it at the cross. God's wrath is His protection of the weak and innocent, so to say that it was pointed towards the One who knew no sin seems to malign it. The whole idea of a wrathful God being placated by the blood of an innocent reeks of paganism rather than the character of the God whose strength is shown in weakness. Now, I'm not saying everything that is identified in penal substitution is wrong just where it goes beyond the named components to speak of wrath.
Jesus took upon Himself the penalty we could not pay, and this was done through allowing sin to use the power of the law to condemn. If this penalty truly was God's righteous anger against sin then it would be the height of injustice punishing the innocent so that the guilty may go free. Certainly if you're guilty the offer would be tempting, but a truly righteous man could not take that offer in good conscience so the sin would be compounded. The error, of course, is not in God's plan in the cross but in the understanding of middle age monks who came to theorize such an awful injustice that now has become nearly ubiquitous with the gospel.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
38,119
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#52
Life itself is a gift. I do understand that some people suffer horribly due to circumstances beyond their control: disease, deformity, sickness, country/family of origin being terribly unaligned with God's will & etc. However, Jesus tells us to look beyond this life to the one to come (as difficult as that may at times seem), and to place all our cares on Him. He promises a life more abundant. God, in His infinite wisdom, will not grant more life to those who refuse to acknowledge Him as their creator, His sovereignty, and His plan for humanity's redemption through the life, death, and resurrection of Christ. As has already been said: we must be born again spiritually :)

 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,003
760
113
36
Australia
#53
Interesting. It’s amazing how i even see the cross as a symbol of love and peace ✌️ yet do not understand-and probably never will-How the S&M crucifixion of Jesus was in anyway loving or necessary. Also you mention life for life as a reason-I am passionately apposed to the death 💀 penalty no matter what the crime. Thank you for trying to help i shall carry on praying and hope that this does not keep me away from Jesus
Hey, some people run away from God asking questions, others run to God asking questions.. Who do you think would get the answer? I've had questions that had taken years for me to understand. Regardless of my lack of understanding, God is still God. He's neither shocked nor disappointed. Sometimes we have to grow in order to understand some things, so please stop thinking and saying this could keep you away from Jesus. Nothing can separate us from His love.
You're doing the right thing in your persistence 😊
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
2,530
113
#54
While there may be some element of misunderstanding God's wrath, I think there's something fundamentally wrong with placing it at the cross. God's wrath is His protection of the weak and innocent, so to say that it was pointed towards the One who knew no sin seems to malign it. The whole idea of a wrathful God being placated by the blood of an innocent reeks of paganism rather than the character of the God whose strength is shown in weakness. Now, I'm not saying everything that is identified in penal substitution is wrong just where it goes beyond the named components to speak of wrath.
Jesus took upon Himself the penalty we could not pay, and this was done through allowing sin to use the power of the law to condemn. If this penalty truly was God's righteous anger against sin then it would be the height of injustice punishing the innocent so that the guilty may go free. Certainly if you're guilty the offer would be tempting, but a truly righteous man could not take that offer in good conscience so the sin would be compounded. The error, of course, is not in God's plan in the cross but in the understanding of middle age monks who came to theorize such an awful injustice that now has become nearly ubiquitous with the gospel.
No matter how terrible it is that Jesus died, if I don't accept what Jesus did for me, then I effectively made His death in vain so that's hypocrisy and us theorizing, as mere humans who fell short of the glory of God, what is just and what isn't, which is worse than anything I've done already in sin. It's the time to stand up and take courage, and not ruminate on deceptive and fluctuating feelings of man. God knows what He's doing and it's His glory. The Scripture says He became a curse for us, and also says that He became sin for us, which is why He experienced affliction and the presence of the Father departed from him ("God, God, why did you forsake me?"), He was treated as the sinners are treated in wrath, they are thrown to various afflictions, they call Him but they don't find Him. Jesus didn't experience second death or go to hell, but wrath of God that sinners experience on earth, He did go through, because of us.

Deuteronomy 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them;
 
Apr 2, 2020
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#55
No matter how terrible it is that Jesus died, if I don't accept what Jesus did for me, then I effectively made His death in vain so that's hypocrisy and us theorizing, as mere humans who fell short of the glory of God, what is just and what isn't, which is worse than anything I've done already in sin. It's the time to stand up and take courage, and not ruminate on deceptive and fluctuating feelings of man. God knows what He's doing and it's His glory. The Scripture says He became a curse for us, and also says that He became sin for us, which is why He experienced affliction and the presence of the Father departed from him ("God, God, why did you forsake me?"), He was treated as the sinners are treated in wrath, they are thrown to various afflictions, they call Him but they don't find Him. Jesus didn't experience second death or go to hell, but wrath of God that sinners experience on earth, He did go through, because of us.

Deuteronomy 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them;
In so far as failing to accept Christ's work treats His blood as unholy, I agree. Though it is not the work of Christ that I questioned and am pointing as being faulty, but the theories of men on how that work is effective. You allude to Jesus becoming sin in your post, but this shows a faulty understanding. Jesus did not metaphysically become sin incarnate, when Paul says "he who knew no sin became sin" he is using "sin" as shorthand for the sin offering, as was common.
God knows what He is doing and the cross is the only way to salvation, but the theory that God punished the most innocent victim to vindicate wicked men should stir up revulsion in a person and cause them to question the human theories. The suffering of Jesus should cause us to contemplate our sin and desire to be rid of it knowing that it is the cause of such a terrible scene. Yet so few are grieved by their sin in that way and happily justify themselves through the suffering of another.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
2,530
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#56
In so far as failing to accept Christ's work treats His blood as unholy, I agree. Though it is not the work of Christ that I questioned and am pointing as being faulty, but the theories of men on how that work is effective. You allude to Jesus becoming sin in your post, but this shows a faulty understanding. Jesus did not metaphysically become sin incarnate, when Paul says "he who knew no sin became sin" he is using "sin" as shorthand for the sin offering, as was common.
God knows what He is doing and the cross is the only way to salvation, but the theory that God punished the most innocent victim to vindicate wicked men should stir up revulsion in a person and cause them to question the human theories. The suffering of Jesus should cause us to contemplate our sin and desire to be rid of it knowing that it is the cause of such a terrible scene. Yet so few are grieved by their sin in that way and happily justify themselves through the suffering of another.
I don't know who are you speaking about in your last sentence, and I never implied in any way Jesus was unholy (???), but probably further discussion won't be fruitful....... have a good one
 
Apr 2, 2020
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#57
I don't know who are you speaking about in your last sentence, and I never implied in any way Jesus was unholy (???), but probably further discussion won't be fruitful....... have a good one
I'm not sure where you read me saying Jesus was unholy in anyway. Are you mistaking me saying a person rejecting the sacrifice treats the blood as unholy as accusing you of saying the blood was unholy?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,590
113
#58
Hello,i have been a struggling Christian for years (I read/study the bible daily and pray and do my best where I can) i do not attend church here in the uk 🇬🇧 because of the middle class snobbery that exists within in them. As regards the story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ-i believe it without doubt 💯 % but i still-despite discipleship and much praying and bible reading-cannot see the purpose of it. Why was gods son nailed to a cross-tortured and humiliated to get a message across. Why did god not just send his beloved son with a message and a warning-“this is your last chance-we’re wiping the slate clean but you must follow me“. Why the need for Jesus’ blood 🩸 why the need for such a barbaric death ordered by his own father-the merciful lord got. I just don’t get it. Jesus didn’t need to be murdered to get me to follow him. Please help me I’m confused 🤷‍♂️
If I wasn't a Christian what would you tell me in order to become a Christian?
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
2,530
113
#59
I'm not sure where you read me saying Jesus was unholy in anyway. Are you mistaking me saying a person rejecting the sacrifice treats the blood as unholy as accusing you of saying the blood was unholy?
Appreciate the explanation because I really didn't understand what you meant with that part when I first read it.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,131
2,353
113
#60
Hello,i have been a struggling Christian for years (I read/study the bible daily and pray and do my best where I can) i do not attend church here in the uk 🇬🇧 because of the middle class snobbery that exists within in them. As regards the story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ-i believe it without doubt 💯 % but i still-despite discipleship and much praying and bible reading-cannot see the purpose of it. Why was gods son nailed to a cross-tortured and humiliated to get a message across. Why did god not just send his beloved son with a message and a warning-“this is your last chance-we’re wiping the slate clean but you must follow me“. Why the need for Jesus’ blood 🩸 why the need for such a barbaric death ordered by his own father-the merciful lord got. I just don’t get it. Jesus didn’t need to be murdered to get me to follow him. Please help me I’m confused 🤷‍♂️
Hello MchaelLone!

In answer to your question and concern, God has been demonstrating from the very beginning and is stated right in scripture that, "unless there is shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness for sins.

This was first demonstrated after Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. with the consequence being death. After that their eyes were opened and they covered their nakedness with fig leaves. However, when God found them in the garden, He brought them the skins of animals to replace their fig leaves. This means that the blood of animals had to be shed in order to cover their sins. This is why God expelled them from the garden, so that Adam and Eve would not have reached out and eaten from the fruit from the tree of life. Then they would have have lived forever in a sinful, fallen state.

The next time we see this teaching, is when Cain and Abel present an offering to the Lord. Cain brought items from his crops, where Abel brought the best portions of the firstborn of his flock. Once again, this demonstrates the teaching of the need for the shedding of blood to cover sins.

This is then continued through the law given to Israel in their temple worship. This teaching of the shedding of blood was/is pointing to the ultimate sacrifice which was Christ's shed blood on the cross. A perfect sacrifice representing mankind as a human being, but without any sin. The righteous for the wicked.

Why did god not just send his beloved son with a message and a warning-“this is your last chance-we’re wiping the slate clean but you must follow me
God could have done what you suggested above, but everything that God does is a legal process. Once sin entered into the world, a sacrifice was needed to cover our sins. For example, Jesus said "no man takes my life, I give it freely." He also said that He had the power to lay down His life and take it back up again. If Jesus had not shed His blood on the cross, then all of humanity would be lost. We would all still be in our sins and condemned.

In the same way that just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Jesus blood paid the penalty for our sins, reconciling us to God and satisfying the requirement of shedding of blood to make atonement for all who would believe in Him.

Taking into consideration you last question, how would that be working for everyone leading up to this point regarding "this your last chance?" Speaking for myself, I would have used that last chance immediately, for I have stumbled many times in my walk with Christ, getting tangled up in many sins. But we have a promise which states that, "when we sin, if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

I hope that this helps