I cannot understand the need for the crucifixion-and i think it’s holding my Christian life back

[Bbrdrd]

Appreciate the explanation because I really didn't understand what you meant with that part when I first read it.

No problem, and none of my post was meant to be accusatory. I think most who accept penal sub don't really think about the implications and rather take it based on being the explanation they've always heard so it is really unnatural to consider other atonement models.

 

[SoulWeaver]

No problem, and none of my post was meant to be accusatory. I think most who accept penal sub don't really think about the implications and rather take it based on being the explanation they've always heard so it is really unnatural to consider other atonement models.

Well that's interesting. When I was in high school we went to see The Passion of Christ at the cinema (basically, the whole generation). In the most disturbing moments, I looked around - many people, mostly unbelievers myself (in that day) included were shedding tears over what was being done to Jesus. So I don't know about people not considering. It's very hard not to. Jesus went through some serious things, you can't not take Him seriously. I wasn't even a believer back then, yet I liked Jesus a lot, gave my life to Him almost a decade later. I believe that Jesus is drawing the OP, and that He will complete the good work He started in him, as He promised. I believe the penal substitution because of the scapegoat since the concept comes from the Bible. But you know what, I'll give you that Jesus might have unified and fulfilled more than 1 model. He's the only acceptable sacrifice, so He's the wave offering, and the sin offering, and the peace offering and so forth.

 

[pottersclay]

Well that's interesting. When I was in high school we went to see The Passion of Christ at the cinema (basically, the whole generation). In the most disturbing moments, I looked around - many people, mostly unbelievers myself (in that day) included were shedding tears over what was being done to Jesus. So I don't know about people not considering. It's very hard not to. Jesus went through some serious things, you can't not take Him seriously. I wasn't even a believer back then, yet I liked Jesus a lot, gave my life to Him almost a decade later. I believe that Jesus is drawing the OP, and that He will complete the good work He started in him, as He promised. I believe the penal substitution because of the scapegoat since the concept comes from the Bible. But you know what, I'll give you that Jesus might have unified and fulfilled more than 1 model. He's the only acceptable sacrifice, so He's the wave offering, and the sin offering, and the peace offering and so forth.

He is also the scapegoat.....that is why he was crucified outside the temple walls.

 

[bojack]

Hello,i have been a struggling Christian for years (I read/study the bible daily and pray and do my best where I can) i do not attend church here in the uk 🇬🇧 because of the middle class snobbery that exists within in them. As regards the story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ-i believe it without doubt 💯 % but i still-despite discipleship and much praying and bible reading-cannot see the purpose of it. Why was gods son nailed to a cross-tortured and humiliated to get a message across. Why did god not just send his beloved son with a message and a warning-“this is your last chance-we’re wiping the slate clean but you must follow me“. Why the need for Jesus’ blood 🩸 why the need for such a barbaric death ordered by his own father-the merciful lord got. I just don’t get it. Jesus didn’t need to be murdered to get me to follow him. Please help me I’m confused 🤷‍♂️

God is Spirit , Jesus is God become a flesh and blood man to dwell with us conceived by the Spirit .. God could not restore Adam until He become the blood sacrifice Himself .. He showed us how to live and act towards both man and God .. Serious and grave with no nonsense and even proved life after death by His resurrection from the dead to us.. In Jesus temptation from the devil He never ever even contemplated sinning but answered each time ''it is written'' ..

Your ''snobbery'' is common and when Jobs sons gathered at one anothers homes to honor feast days the devil also went in .. You need to rise above being offended by petty things in any church Bro .. IMO you need to get out and witness Jesus, risk being persecuted for Jesus name and God will begin to lift you up as you lift up Jesus .. Jesus said ''my food is to do the will of the Father'' and it sounds like you are spiritually starving yourself, don't worry too much, there is famine in many churches and Christian .. Just be an overcomer in Jesus get out and witness and minister in Jesus name , you don't need any church to do that but if you go out and be persecuted for Jesus name sake then go to a church all beat up from the world you will know psalm 122:1 from the inside
1 (A Song of degrees of David.) I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of the LORD

You can become so anointed that your anointing will feed the rest of the congregation like the two fish and five small loaves did ,, And no one will ever know what happened but you and Jesus .. And it helps if you fast with prayer 3-4 days before you go out ever so often .. God Bless and don't listen to Goliath any longer but go get him, he's the perfect size for ass-kicking

 

[Duskey]

All the sins you have committed now and till you die deserve the exact punishment that Christ received. You deserve to be crucified and receive all the torment that came with it.

That’s a bunch of crap. You in your sinfulness have the ability and wherewithal to be merciful and gracious without killing someone you love, and so can God who is the essence of love.

 

[Bbrdrd]

Well that's interesting. When I was in high school we went to see The Passion of Christ at the cinema (basically, the whole generation). In the most disturbing moments, I looked around - many people, mostly unbelievers myself (in that day) included were shedding tears over what was being done to Jesus. So I don't know about people not considering. It's very hard not to. Jesus went through some serious things, you can't not take Him seriously. I wasn't even a believer back then, yet I liked Jesus a lot, gave my life to Him almost a decade later. I believe that Jesus is drawing the OP, and that He will complete the good work He started in him, as He promised. I believe the penal substitution because of the scapegoat since the concept comes from the Bible. But you know what, I'll give you that Jesus might have unified and fulfilled more than 1 model. He's the only acceptable sacrifice, so He's the wave offering, and the sin offering, and the peace offering and so forth.

Huge problem with connecting the scapegoat with the sacrifice of Jesus since the scapegoat was sent out into the wilderness after the sins of Israel were spoken over it.
It may seem to be Biblical, but it's late ideas being read into the text rather than what is present in the text. Only the burnt offering has anything to do with wrath, and it is the smoke that is connected with being a soothing smell. The blood offerings were cleansing offerings, removing the sin from the implements of the tabernacle so the Lord may continue to dwell in it.
And this is what I mean by penal substitution being pernicious, there are really only 2-3 verses that can be said to strongly imply it but then things like God clothing Adam and Eve and various Old Testament sacrifices have the idea read into them regardless of what's present in the Old Testament.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Huge problem with connecting the scapegoat with the sacrifice of Jesus since the scapegoat was sent out into the wilderness after the sins of Israel were spoken over it.
It may seem to be Biblical, but it's late ideas being read into the text rather than what is present in the text. Only the burnt offering has anything to do with wrath, and it is the smoke that is connected with being a soothing smell. The blood offerings were cleansing offerings, removing the sin from the implements of the tabernacle so the Lord may continue to dwell in it.
And this is what I mean by penal substitution being pernicious, there are really only 2-3 verses that can be said to strongly imply it but then things like God clothing Adam and Eve and various Old Testament sacrifices have the idea read into them regardless of what's present in the Old Testament.

As for only 2-3 verses seeming insufficient to you... I am thinking, "let every thing be established by 2 or 3 witnesses". I mean... even if something is mentioned only once in the Bible it is no less true.
If Jesus didn't fulfill the scapegoat, who fulfilled it? Because all foreshadowing from the OT had to be fulfilled in Jesus. Or otherwise, if it was not a picture of things to come with Jesus, what was the end goal, putting sin on a literal goat?

Only the burnt offering has anything to do with wrath, and it is the smoke that is connected with being a soothing smell.

Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

 

[Bbrdrd]

As for only 2-3 verses seeming insufficient to you... I am thinking, "let every thing be established by 2 or 3 witnesses". I mean... even if something is mentioned only once in the Bible it is no less true.
If Jesus didn't fulfill the scapegoat, who fulfilled it? Because all foreshadowing from the OT had to be fulfilled in Jesus. Or otherwise, if it was not a picture of things to come with Jesus, what was the end goal, putting sin on a literal goat?



Ephesians 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

When I say 2-3 verses I don't mean they truly support such a view, merely that there are 2-3 where a strong case could be made but alternates can be proposed. Even among those there's quite a bit of debate as to what hilasterion means, for instance. As for the scapegoat, that would take much speculation but to link Jesus with both the goat for YHWH and the goat for Azazel requires some explanation.
All of the food offerings were sweetsmelling savours, to find a direct link with the wrath in the burnt offering you'd need to see Jesus' sacrifice linked with smoke.
Even then, to make that the central theme when most of the sacrifices don't address wrath in the sacrifice but instead link the release of guilt with recompense and confession on the part of the penitent is a stretch.
Added to the manner in which Biblical material is mishandled to overstate the case of penal substitution is the fact that only one writer forwarded a similar scheme before Calvin put it forth in the 16th century. If penal substitution is the gospel its strange no one articulated it until Calvin.

 

[SoulWeaver]

When I say 2-3 verses I don't mean they truly support such a view, merely that there are 2-3 where a strong case could be made but alternates can be proposed. Even among those there's quite a bit of debate as to what hilasterion means, for instance. As for the scapegoat, that would take much speculation but to link Jesus with both the goat for YHWH and the goat for Azazel requires some explanation.
All of the food offerings were sweetsmelling savours, to find a direct link with the wrath in the burnt offering you'd need to see Jesus' sacrifice linked with smoke.
Even then, to make that the central theme when most of the sacrifices don't address wrath in the sacrifice but instead link the release of guilt with recompense and confession on the part of the penitent is a stretch.
Added to the manner in which Biblical material is mishandled to overstate the case of penal substitution is the fact that only one writer forwarded a similar scheme before Calvin put it forth in the 16th century. If penal substitution is the gospel its strange no one articulated it until Calvin.

Might be because it's a theological term and people didn't use to word things that way that much, it's something that gradually became prevalent with theology development. The first disciples did and worded things very simply. Maybe we continue this at a later date. I will agree to disagree, for now. You have a blessed weekend bro, and thank you for the conversation.

 

[bojack]

That’s a bunch of crap. You in your sinfulness have the ability and wherewithal to be merciful and gracious without killing someone you love, and so can God who is the essence of love.

I think I miss your point

50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.
51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest's, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

 

[Bbrdrd]

Might be because it's a theological term and people didn't use to word things that way that much, it's something that gradually became prevalent with theology development. The first disciples did and worded things very simply. Maybe we continue this at a later date. I will agree to disagree, for now. You have a blessed weekend bro, and thank you for the conversation.

I don't just mean the theological term, but the theological premises. Only tertullian pictures the atonement in a way that resembles penal substitution. Up until Anselm most who wrote on the topic held to some form of ransom theory. That's 1000 years where the predominant understanding is different from what has come in some circles to be thought of as the gospel. And even after Anselm it was another 600 years before it transformed into the present theory. Anselm formulated God's honor was satisfied at the cross which was then developed into justice by Aquinas and finally the present theory of wrath by Calvin.
So to say the early disciples understood it that way speaks against what was put forth by those they directly taught such as Clement and the other apostolic fathers. Anyway, you have a blessed weekend too.

 

[Lighthearted]

Interesting. It’s amazing how i even see the cross as a symbol of love and peace ✌️ yet do not understand-and probably never will-How the S&M crucifixion of Jesus was in anyway loving or necessary. Also you mention life for life as a reason-I am passionately apposed to the death 💀 penalty no matter what the crime. Thank you for trying to help i shall carry on praying and hope that this does not keep me away from Jesus

The only thing that comes to mind when I think of the horrific things Christ suffered to save me...I see His love above all else. We should be just as willing to lay our lives down for Him. Whether by serving or even death for our beliefs.

 

[Lighthearted]

The only thing that comes to mind when I think of the horrific things Christ suffered to save me...I see His love above all else. We should be just as willing to lay our lives down for Him. Whether by serving or even death for our beliefs.

I also feel I should add that Jesus laid His life down because it was His father's will. His victory over the grave should encourage us all in faith, hope, and love. Sure would make it easier to face being a martyr knowing that Jesus did it first and that I'll be with Him when this flesh dies.

 

[Bugs]

That’s a bunch of crap. You in your sinfulness have the ability and wherewithal to be merciful and gracious without killing someone you love, and so can God who is the essence of love.

Do you think Christ suffered and died just to be dramatic?

You my dear are just the sort of fanatic that make new Believers think twice about becoming a Christian ✝️

Do you really think Christ suffered and died just to be dramatic? He went through that because there was no other way to redeem us sinners. His death was the only way to atone for our sins. To make us holy so that we can be with Him.

There is nothing you or I can do to be righteous, we are helpless. "all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags" There is nothing we can do to earn our way into heaven, Jesus Christ is essential for your salvation. He is not just a messenger, He is the only hope we have, our Lord and Savior. In John 14:6 it is written "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. "

Keep up with your reading, making it all the way to the book of Joshua means you have already gone through what many consider the Dry parts of the bible. Stay determined and you will find new things about God each day that you never noticed before while reading through His word.

Do not let others or myself discourage you from a relationship with God, we are all sinners just like you. Each one of us must strive to be Holy just like Christ and make Him the center of our lives.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

That’s a bunch of crap. You in your sinfulness have the ability and wherewithal to be merciful and gracious without killing someone you love, and so can God who is the essence of love.

Bookended:
The blood of Abel cries out. (Genesis)
The martyrs at the throne in heaven cry out (Revelation)

And everything in between. Every murder, every rape, every beating.
Children kept as sex slaves. NOW. Beheadings now. Every wrong ever done that throws the creation off course screams in the ears of God.

(("HOW LONG O LORD??" )) How long until we get justice?

God is bound by his own law to provide justice. That is why he sacrificed himself. Himself and no one else.
Because justice cannot be provided by one who is imperfect. God took responsibility to provide a way out for the entire creation.
That IS love.
Justice and righteousness are the nature and character of our God. A strong God who has death itself under his foot.
Without his atonement he can't offer us a pardon.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

Thanks Lucy ✌️🙂You are right about the 🇺🇸 element of this site. I thought it was a 🇬🇧✝️Forum? I have read all the gospels and all Paul’s letters and am now on a mission to complete the bible cover to cover-I’m currently at Joshua 12. I’m sorry if it was disrespectful but all the churches i have attended here are very snobby. I’ve been advised to try the Salvation Army church,

Hi,
There have been 3 pages of posts since I looked yesterday!
No it's not a British forum. It's open to the world.
There are a handful of Brits, at least one Spaniard & one Canadian. A German, a lady from India and I think a couple of So Africans, who I see posting regularly but the contributors are mostly in the USA. American Christians are easy to interact with though, no real problems. Some of the most open people in the world. It's just that some lack cultural understanding of other parts of the world. Sometimes definitions vary & can cause confusion.

I can't advise on the Salvation Army Church. I have no experience of it. I wouldn't care to recommend any particular denomination.
Although there are some I would avoid. But each church is different. You have to find the one local to you that you are happy with.
I'm not a fan of very big congregations myself but I would attend a big church occasionally. You might prefer a big church.

So you've reached Joshua which means you've read about Abraham & Moses. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac and the Passover are (among other things) foreshadows of the sacrifice of Jesus. I expect you know that but head-knowledge doesn't always engage the heart.

Don't let yourself be too discouraged. We all have problems & sticking points. This very thing may be the element of your walk with Jesus that is personally necessary for you. I reckon you'll have that 'eureka moment' at some point when The Holy Spirit reveals to you what you've been seeking. And it may be you who helps someone else with this same issue in the future. You'll know how to sympathise because you've walked through the same area of doubt yourself. The Holy Spirit will guide you.

The book of Job is a good book to read for those who think there may be something wrong with their walk. Job went as far as to accuse God of being unfair. There is nothing in the range of human doubt & belief that God hasn't experienced before.

Regarding the actual point you are grappling with. The sacrifice. I don't know what your age group or life experience is but have you ever read A Tale of Two Cities? We have there at the end of the novel, a hero who goes willingly to the guillotine in order to allow someone else to live. Someone he loves.

Although we accept Jesus as The Son of God & we speak in terms of Father, Son & Holy Spirit, these are not separate gods. God is one. Jesus is God. The same God who guided Israel by the pillar of cloud. He laid his life down willingly. God hasn't demanded a horrible bloody sacrifice of anyone but himself.

Innocence has to die for innocence to live anew. Every time you eat, innocence has died in order to nourish your body.
Even if you are vegetarian. A plant has still died in order that you might continue to live. That's a bit philosophical but
I can see it everywhere. His signature is on all creation and his sacrifice was to save all creation. The story doesn't end at the
bloody cross. It only begins there! And you are going to be fine. I'm rambling though. Sorry.

 

[infinitekhanol]

"MichaelLone, posted

Hello,i have been a struggling Christian for years (I read/study the bible daily and pray and do my best where I can) i do not attend church here in the uk 🇬🇧 because of the middle class snobbery that exists within in them. As regards the story of the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ-i believe it without doubt 💯 % but i still-despite discipleship and much praying and bible reading-cannot see the purpose of it. Why was gods son nailed to a cross-tortured and humiliated to get a message across. Why did god not just send his beloved son with a message and a warning-“this is your last chance-we’re wiping the slate clean but you must follow me“. Why the need for Jesus’ blood 🩸 why the need for such a barbaric death ordered by his own father-the merciful lord got. I just don’t get it. Jesus didn’t need to be murdered to get me to follow him. Please help me I’m confused 🤷‍♂️


I think what we should see in the Crucifixion and Resurrection among other things, is the extent, the degree and nature of God's love which is limitless, unsearchable and unquantifiable. God is love the bible tells us and therefore he seeks only for the good of his creatures. He tells us he knows the thoughts he thinks for us, thoughts of good and not of evil to give us an expected end. (Jer 29:11). He gives only good and his goodness knows no bound. Saving us that way is no big deal to him. It is his character.

In some African countries, some women go through massive domestic violence in the hands of their husbands and in laws and they choose to stay in the marriage for the sake of their children. For this love of children, they endure beatings, hunger, reproaches and all kinds of evil machinations. I have heard about women who chose to be imprisoned in place of their children who committed crimes just for the sake of their kind of love. They made sure their children never showed up in court. These are samples of human love which in most cases is limited because of the self attachment in it. God's kind of love goes beyond our imagination.

We learnt from the bible that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. I believe you know the reason why the blood of animals was said to be inadequate for the sacrifice since you are conversant with the scripture. I believe God has to do it himself as the bible tells us because he searched the whole earth and no one and no thing was worthy. It requires a body not tainted with sin, blameless and without blemish. ---as was the case in the old testament era.

Christ Jesus said, If we continue with me, you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. I believe once we are sincere in our hearts in following him, What we do not know will eventually be revealed to us if we persevere.

 

[Godcares]

I am the same... I also don't understand why Jesus had to be sent to die on a cross for our sins and i feel it is holding me back...

I try and imagine people who have sinned against me and then sending my son to court to be sentenced to death in order to pay for their sins. That makes no sense to me...

After the original sin of Adam and Eve, God cursed the rest of humanity with sin... But God hates us being sinners even though it was Him that gave us this sinful nature. That makes no sense to me...

It is said that God sacrificed His only son to die for our sins. But, it wasn't really a big sacrifice given that Jesus rose up from the dead and back up into heaven. That makes no sense to me...

According to the Trinity Jesus is God... So God sent himself to die on a cross for our sins. That makes no sense to me...

I don't understand it...

Why Jesus came to die

The penalty of sin is death (Romans 6:23) and therefore we should die for our sins. But because God loves us, in the Old Testament, he presented a temporary solution to the penalty.

He introduced the sacrificial system in which people would have to offer an animal sacrifice to a priest to get their sins forgiven. People would transfer their sins to this animal and this animal would get killed instead of the individual. (You can read about this method of getting forgiveness of sins in the book of Leviticus)

The bible says that in order for sins to be given, there must be shedding of blood.

• Hebrews 9:22 says “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
• Leviticus 17:11 says” For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

By shedding His blood on the cross, Jesus took the punishment we deserve and offered us His righteousness. When we trust Christ for our salvation, we are essentially making a trade. By faith, we trade our sin and its accompanying death penalty for His righteousness and life.(1 Peter 2:24).
This is called “substitutionary atonement.” Christ died on the cross as our substitute. Without Him, we would suffer the death penalty for our own sins. (1 John 3:5).

Christ coming to die for our sins also removed the need of this sacrificial system. He died once and took away our sins and our sins are transferred to him when we believe in him (Hebrews 2:10).

Therefore if Jesus did not come to die on the cross, it means that today in 2020, we would have to take an animal every day and present it to the high priest and have it killed in our place.

How sin entered the world

God did not give us the sinful nature. The bible says that sin came because of Adam’s sin.

Romans 5:12 says “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”

Why did Jesus rise from the dead?

Jesus resurrected from the dead to show that he has power over death and has the keys over life and death. This resurrection also gives us hope and shows that we need not fear death because we too will be resurrected.

• Hebrews 2:14-15 says “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.”
• John 11:25-26 says “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.”
• 1 Corinthians 15:25-26 says “For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. “

Jesus also had to be resurrected to be our High Priest to be our intercessor.

• Hebrews 4:14-15 says “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.”
• Hebrews 7:25 says “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.”

I hope you will find the above helpful

 

[Sipsey]

Hi,
There have been 3 pages of posts since I looked yesterday!
No it's not a British forum. It's open to the world.
There are a handful of Brits, at least one Spaniard & one Canadian. A German, a lady from India and I think a couple of So Africans, who I see posting regularly but the contributors are mostly in the USA. American Christians are easy to interact with though, no real problems. Some of the most open people in the world. It's just that some lack cultural understanding of other parts of the world. Sometimes definitions vary & can cause confusion.

I can't advise on the Salvation Army Church. I have no experience of it. I wouldn't care to recommend any particular denomination.
Although there are some I would avoid. But each church is different. You have to find the one local to you that you are happy with.
I'm not a fan of very big congregations myself but I would attend a big church occasionally. You might prefer a big church.

So you've reached Joshua which means you've read about Abraham & Moses. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac and the Passover are (among other things) foreshadows of the sacrifice of Jesus. I expect you know that but head-knowledge doesn't always engage the heart.

Don't let yourself be too discouraged. We all have problems & sticking points. This very thing may be the element of your walk with Jesus that is personally necessary for you. I reckon you'll have that 'eureka moment' at some point when The Holy Spirit reveals to you what you've been seeking. And it may be you who helps someone else with this same issue in the future. You'll know how to sympathise because you've walked through the same area of doubt yourself. The Holy Spirit will guide you.

The book of Job is a good book to read for those who think there may be something wrong with their walk. Job went as far as to accuse God of being unfair. There is nothing in the range of human doubt & belief that God hasn't experienced before.

Regarding the actual point you are grappling with. The sacrifice. I don't know what your age group or life experience is but have you ever read A Tale of Two Cities? We have there at the end of the novel, a hero who goes willingly to the guillotine in order to allow someone else to live. Someone he loves.

Although we accept Jesus as The Son of God & we speak in terms of Father, Son & Holy Spirit, these are not separate gods. God is one. Jesus is God. The same God who guided Israel by the pillar of cloud. He laid his life down willingly. God hasn't demanded a horrible bloody sacrifice of anyone but himself.

Innocence has to die for innocence to live anew. Every time you eat, innocence has died in order to nourish your body.
Even if you are vegetarian. A plant has still died in order that you might continue to live. That's a bit philosophical but
I can see it everywhere. His signature is on all creation and his sacrifice was to save all creation. The story doesn't end at the
bloody cross. It only begins there! And you are going to be fine. I'm rambling though. Sorry.

I like your assertion, “Innocence has to die for innocence to live anew.” There is a sermon contained within those words!

Paul learned from Jesus that spiritual truths can be conveyed in many different ways. Paul and the Apostles often gave nuanced assertions and answers in order to make their audience think, and to think more deeply. Till our mind is convinced, our body will hesitate.

 

[Ann-Marie]

THE QUESTION REMAINS UNANSWERED: Why would God offer his Son (an innocent/God) to pay for mens' sins and EXACTLY how does this work? How does the death of one take away the sins of all? Those sins should be paid for by each and every perpetrator. The answer is Atonement theory, but there have been many other theories about why Christ died. This one stuck. I think Jesus died because they felt He was a threat to the powers that "be" at the time. Period. If I could not sacrific my own child (and I am a sinner), how could God do any less.
Here are the theories put forth by MEN over time as to why Christ died: There are seven different theories that were put forth. But Atonement stuck:

https://www.sdmorrison.org/7-theories-of-the-atonement-summarized/